Baltimore in the hot seat now!!!!!

[btq96r]

btq: Police presence does not produce high crime areas. Nor is all of suburbia "white". But I find it interesting that you believe that.

 

They do when they go in looking for something to find.  And coming from suburbia, I know that it isn't all white. 

 

The first part of your statement is fact if you are looking at percentages as compared to the population. How much experience do you have as a Police Officer or working around them to come to your conclusion on the cause?

 

I am looking at percentages as compared to the population. 

 

Not a cop, and not sure what quantifies as "working around them."  But I know from casual conversation, social media, and good old fashioned common sense that there is a sentiment brewing deep in minority communities at how they have been targeted by law enforcement.  Coupled with unemployment or underemployment and it's a powder keg waiting for a spark.

 

Ferguson, Baltimore...these are harbingers of the future, IMO.  I think we're going to see more of it every time there is the least bit of suspicion involving a minority and an LEO, especially as the minority-majority factor continues to grow.

[GhostDog]

No, they don't... unless you're suggesting that they just make things up. Even small towns with speed traps aren't generally considered to be high crime areas. If you check in a poor non-minority community, you may also find an anti-police sentiment. Gov't can't fix that.

If you are from suburbia and you know better then why use inaccurate buzz words, to make a point?

It's human nature to justify/shift blame for our own short-comings. Politicians and other exploiters make a living off of it. This will never change until we all wake up. Demographics be damned!

 

I still agree with you about the peaceful protests though.

[Clod Stomper]

Wow, busy thread here. Was this Freddy guy gay or something?

[Ted S.]

Wow, busy thread here. Was this Freddy guy gay or something?

You're thinking Freddie Mercury.

[Pain103]

You're thinking Freddie Mercury.

Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango?

[mikegideon]

You're thinking Freddie Mercury.

 

Freddie was pretty gay.

[bud]

. Edited May 31, 2015 by bud

[Omega]

My comment about the poor mexicans being the only ones left to discriminte against since the blacks and gays were taken off the table was completely tounge in cheek.
My mother in law is Mexican and I also employ Hispanic workers.
The way the Hispanic men are routinely treated when we're out at lunch or picking up materials at vendors, and the way they are routinely talked about by many of my customers, is embarrassing to me to say the least.
Well educated, wealthy, white men and women make such insensitive/racist comments about them and don't even realize it.
They are truly treated as second class humans and it's still socially acceptable, much like racist comments made about blacks could be espoused in public without fear of backlash until recently ( by recently I mean 20 years +/-).

Was just making a cute comment about how times they are a changing, and I don't wanna derail the thread.

This thread, in my opinion, has not been about cop bashing, nor have the protests or demonstrations been about cop bashing.
It's about accountability.
If we the taxpayers hire you the police force to do a job for us, then you are accountable to, and answer to, wethe public. We're the boss.
I understand not releasing details that might hinder an investigation, but this is different.
You don't get 10 days to do your own private investigation and then turn your report over to the attorney general and say " we got it to you a day before we had to, aren't we so expedient. Now you, AG, can begin your investigation, since we now have all our stories straight and have decided who is going to take the fall and how far up the chain of command this corruption is going to be discovered. They sat around for ten days trading favors and trading threats of "I've got this on you, or I've got this on so and so, so you'd better not implicate me or I'll bring so and so down". Total bs.

With regards to cop bashing, discussion of police officers and the fact that some of them are acting outside the law is not cop bashing. Policing is a job that we the people created in order to employ some of our fellow citizens to help uphold our laws and to keep the peace.
There is nothing wrong with saying, we made a mistake hiring this particular guy he's a real p.o.s. There's bad apples in every work place. Furthermore, if we can sit around and bash the President of the United States, our highest positioned employee who is in the most respected position in our country, then I'm sure we can also bash our cops when they act outside of what we pay them to do. I know policing is a dangerous job and that officers deserve respect, but it's not like it's charity work. Metro created a position for a teacher that my wife took, and metro created a job for a police officer that my brother in law took. The market created a job for a landscaper that I took. We're all just workers and should do our jobs the best way we know how, uphold our morals, and collect our checks. And, we're all subject to critical reviews by those who write the checks.

Not sure of others intent but as for me, I have no issues with holding all our public servants accountable for their actions.  But with an injury toll of over 100 police officers across the country before any of the facts are known is just down right pathetic.  We the people have a right to protest, but not riot, loot and burn down the place while injuring those that want to maintain the peace.  Some of those A-Holes where even cutting the fire hoses, what kind of $hit was that?  And why is it that riots only occur when a black person is beaten or killed?  Why is it that other races maintain order and discipline when something like that happens to one of ours.  For full disclosure I am of Mexican decent, and I know that my brethren are treated much the same way across the country and more than a few have died in police custody but not once has there been a riot over it.  That is not to say that Hispanics never participate, heck many of them were in the pack during the LA riots but that was due to a black man.

[EssOne]

My comment about the poor mexicans being the only ones left to discriminte against since the blacks and gays were taken off the table was completely tounge in cheek.
My mother in law is Mexican and I also employ Hispanic workers.
The way the Hispanic men are routinely treated when we're out at lunch or picking up materials at vendors, and the way they are routinely talked about by many of my customers, is embarrassing to me to say the least.
Well educated, wealthy, white men and women make such insensitive/racist comments about them and don't even realize it.
They are truly treated as second class humans and it's still socially acceptable, much like racist comments made about blacks could be espoused in public without fear of backlash until recently ( by recently I mean 20 years +/-).

Was just making a cute comment about how times they are a changing, and I don't wanna derail the thread.

This thread, in my opinion, has not been about cop bashing, nor have the protests or demonstrations been about cop bashing.
It's about accountability.
If we the taxpayers hire you the police force to do a job for us, then you are accountable to, and answer to, wethe public. We're the boss.
I understand not releasing details that might hinder an investigation, but this is different.
You don't get 10 days to do your own private investigation and then turn your report over to the attorney general and say " we got it to you a day before we had to, aren't we so expedient. Now you, AG, can begin your investigation, since we now have all our stories straight and have decided who is going to take the fall and how far up the chain of command this corruption is going to be discovered". They sat around for ten days trading favors and trading threats of "I've got this on you, or I've got this on so and so, so you'd better not implicate me or I'll bring so and so down". Total bs.

With regards to cop bashing, discussion of police officers and the fact that some of them are acting outside the law is not cop bashing. Policing is a job that we the people created in order to employ some of our fellow citizens to help uphold our laws and to keep the peace.
There is nothing wrong with saying, we made a mistake hiring this particular guy he's a real p.o.s. There's bad apples in every work place. Furthermore, if we can sit around and bash the President of the United States, our highest positioned employee who is in the most respected position in our country, then I'm sure we can also bash our cops when they act outside of what we pay them to do. I know policing is a dangerous job and that officers deserve respect, but it's not like it's charity work. Metro created a position for a teacher that my wife took, and metro created a job for a police officer that my brother in law took. The market created a job for a landscaper that I took. We're all just workers and should do our jobs the best way we know how, uphold our morals, and collect our checks. And, we're all subject to critical reviews by those who write the checks.

Intelligent discussion of topics concerning police officers/agencies and their failings and wrongdoings, even those that get heated, are perfectly all right, even desirable. I'm a 28 year retired cop and I welcome honest examination of the police service. 

 

But when the rap sheet crowd comes out of the internet woodwork and starts throwing around BS accusations, derisive names, and their sick version of propriety, proper respect for all the dead cops in cemeteries says it's time to back off and start asking some questions instead of racing to the "Like" icon. Have any of you guys ever wondered about the motivation of really devoted internet cop bashers? Huh? OK, who hates cops most? Answer: Those who have examined the wrong side of a jail cell door, and I would remind you that there's no background check required to join an internet gun forum, either. So when you see a load of out and out hatred and derision being expressed by the cop bashers, you might just want to wonder if their parole officers know what the devil they're doing on a gun forum. You'll never convince me that the devoted internet cop bashers haven't been around the criminal justice pike a time or two, and these guys invariably poison a really good discussion. I guess this is where I'm supposed t say "end of rant."

Edited May 1, 2015 by EssOne

[tnguy]

Man this thread's gone a bit deeper south then I'd expected with some pretty strong based on "media reports". There's a lot that could be said and more that shouldn't but here's what I'm certain of. None of us here know what really happened in Baltimore other than a subject was placed into police custody with injuries and not immediately provided medical treatment. I don't know why that happened because I wasn't there. None of you were either. That subject may or may not have sustained other injuries in a transport van, either self induced or otherwise. The same I/We weren't there applies. Some level of negligence is suspiciously possible but excessive force or civil rights violations? More data's needed. I'm suspicious but that proves nothing.  

 

However, the fact that the "rough ride" is a well known thing sets the tone. If you have a force that's known to be scrupulously careful in the handling of suspects, that's one thing but if you have a culture of egregious violence, that's another.

[Clod Stomper]

Uh oh. I don't have a link at the moment, but I'm listening to the radio. Doesn't sound good for the cops who arrested Gray.

[TNWNGR]

However, the fact that the "rough ride" is a well known thing sets the tone. If you have a force that's known to be scrupulously careful in the handling of suspects, that's one thing but if you have a culture of egregious violence, that's another.

And your making an assumption which regardless of what you report is still that...I'm more than certain you've been briefed in on the more pragmatic definition of assumption. There should be a computer box under the drivers seat of that transport van which may or may not prove to be useful and I suspect's already been downloaded. I do believe that Baltimore PD is under scrutiny which it well should be and if found culpable here should be held accountable.  

Edited May 1, 2015 by TNWNGR

[JAB]

They do when they go in looking for something to find.  And coming from suburbia, I know that it isn't all white. 

 

 

I am looking at percentages as compared to the population. 

 

Not a cop, and not sure what quantifies as "working around them."  But I know from casual conversation, social media, and good old fashioned common sense that there is a sentiment brewing deep in minority communities at how they have been targeted by law enforcement.  Coupled with unemployment or underemployment and it's a powder keg waiting for a spark.

 

Ferguson, Baltimore...these are harbingers of the future, IMO.  I think we're going to see more of it every time there is the least bit of suspicion involving a minority and an LEO, especially as the minority-majority factor continues to grow.

 

There was an episode of Homicide: Life on the Streets (a cop drama that just happened to be set in Baltimore - and was based on a factual book) where two black detectives, Pembleton and Lewis, investigate the shooting of a white woman in a store parking lot.  They determine that the bullet was likely a 'stray' fired from one of the two neighborhoods in the vicinity of the store.  One neighborhood is predominantly white while the other is predominantly black.  Lewis gets upset when Pembleton immediately begins the investigation in the black neighborhood.  In the end, it turns out that a kid in the white neighborhood was playing with his dad's gun and fired the stray bullet.  After the case is solved, Lewis is giving Pembleton (who is just as much a proud, black man as Lewis) down the road about immediately assuming the bullet had come from the black neighborhood.  In one of the most frank responses I have ever seen on television, Pembleton (who was played by the awesome actor Andre Braugher) responds with something along the lines of:

 

Yeah, this time the bullet came from the white neighborhood.  However, you know as well as I that nine times out of ten that bullet came from the black neighborhood.  If I had another investigation like this tomorrow I'd start with the black neighborhood, again - and so would you.  I know you would because you are a good detective.

 

Not that it has anything to do with this thread but unless I am mistaken, at one time Baltimore was either the murder capital of the U.S. or had the second highest murder rate (I believe that was the case when Homicide was on the air but I could be wrong.)  From what I could find, in 2014 Baltimore had the fifth highest murder rate in the country.  Sounds like it can be a pretty dangerous place, to me.

Edited May 1, 2015 by JAB

[E4 No More]

Officers are being charged with murder: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-grays-death-a-homicide-6-baltimore-officers-charged/ar-BBj262m

[btq96r]

Uh oh. I don't have a link at the moment, but I'm listening to the radio. Doesn't sound good for the cops who arrested Gray.

Here's a link with the charges the officers are facing.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-freddie-gray-mosby-presser-0502-20150501-story.html#page=1

[tnguy]

And your making an assumption which regardless of what you report is still that...I'm more than certain you've been briefed in on the more pragmatic definition of assumption. There should be a computer box under the drivers seat of that transport van which may or may not prove to be useful and I suspect's already been downloaded. I do believe that Baltimore PD is under scrutiny which it well should be and if found culpable here should be held accountable.  

 

You miss the point. In many ways it doesn't matter even if everything was handled properly in this case. The history has set the scene. I'm not justifying anything but on the flipside, I think that standing around asking "So why are people so upset before the facts come out?" is a bit disingenuous also.

 

"Sow the wind" and all that...

 

Edit: And now the officers are being charged with murder which is quite possibly unwarranted. This is what a lax attitude to "bad apples" brings you.

Edited May 1, 2015 by tnguy

[TNWNGR]

You miss the point. In many ways it doesn't matter even if everything was handled properly in this case. The history has set the scene. I'm not justifying anything but on the flipside, I think that standing around asking "So why are people so upset before the facts come out?" is a bit disingenuous also.

 

"Sow the wind" and all that...

 

Edit: And now the officers are being charged with murder which is quite possibly unwarranted. This is what a lax attitude to "bad apples" brings you.

No. I got your point but just wanted to point out that until finding were in or charges set forth everything was speculative. Suspicious as hell but speculative. I'm always appreciative when the facts, wart's and all, come out in an investigation of wrong doing. Now let's wait and see what happens in a court because my suspicions are this investigation was rushed. That could significantly affect prosecution.

 

BTW I couldn't agree more about the need for scrupulous internal policing and adherence to corrective disciplinary practices and were necessary terminations of employment. Not doing so creates way to many problems and litigation.   

Edited May 1, 2015 by TNWNGR

[Randall53]

Regardless of what happened, the 1st amendment explicitly provides for 'the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances'". Anything above the "peaceably" part is criminal and should be treated as such.

[EssOne]

The next shoe to drop won't be the trial of the officers. The next shoe to drop will be launching into a mad scramble to save the Mayor's political career, and that will be interesting since the common perception is that she royally dropped the ball. As for Baltimore Public Safety officials, I think they're toast.  Whatever the process or lack of process may be, the Chief of Police and some Division Commanders will probably be sent into early retirement, or reduced in rank, or fired outright, and I'm sure there will be a massive retraining program for the entire Department.....If I were on Baltimore PD right now I would nail my feet to the floor because the place is about to get turned upside down and shaken real hard.

 

As for the issue of the residents' zeal for justice, only their conduct when the officers' verdicts are read will determine whether their zeal is really for justice, or only for retribution. My past experience suggests the latter will prevail, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more rioting if any of the officers are acquitted. Of course if they are, the U.S. Justice Department will, as always when they're dissatisfied with a local verdict, step in with federal Civil Rights charges. This is upsetting because the feds never seem to think Civil Rights issues are pertinent until the local verdict is for acquittal. Like I said, it could be the most interesting can of worms since the Rodney King incident of the early 90's.

[Erik88]

I see the officers were charged but they have yet to explain how he broke his neck. 

[Oh Shoot]

Here's a link with the charges the officers are facing.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-freddie-gray-mosby-presser-0502-20150501-story.html#page=1

 

Wait and see if most don't squeal to implicate just one or two of them. Probably why they charged them all, to get them to talk.

 

- OS

[btq96r]

I see the officers were charged but they have yet to explain how he broke his neck. 

 

Anything medical is probably going to be kept at close hold until at least jury selection is done.  Put the information out now and finding enough people to serve as jurors and alternates becomes a miserable chore.

[TNWNGR]

. Like I said, it could be the most interesting can of worms since the Rodney King incident of the early 90's.

Yes I agree. I see a lot of acquittals coming out of this and a politically ruined State DA. Your also right in the DOJ will pursue Civil Rights Violations at that point. The departmental restructuring is a given as well as the Mayor's future being in question.  

[TNWNGR]

Wait and see if most don't squeal to implicate just one or two of them. Probably why they charged them all, to get them to talk.

 

- OS

Oh no doubt deals are going to be offered and more will come to light. Charging everyone involved is not going to strengthen the case or expedite prosecution. It's looking like a "show trial" in the works.

[Oh Shoot]

Pursuant to my previous post regarding his knife, was mentioned today it was legal, even though one of the cops swore under oath it was an illegal switchblade. Although this doesn't seem to have figured into the chase and arrest itself anyway, only found after the fact.

 

- OS

Edited May 1, 2015 by Oh Shoot