Baltimore in the hot seat now!!!!!

[mikegideon]

I just don't think it would be that surprising if he did try to injure himself.

 

Me neither.

[DaveTN]

Hmm...let's give the "he may have tried to hurt himself" story an old fashioned smell test.

The prisoner, who is currently in jail, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him. His statement is contained in an application for a search warrant, which is sealed by the court. The Post was given the document under the condition that the prisoner not be named because the person who provided it feared for the inmate’s safety.

The document, written by a Baltimore police investigator, offers the first glimpse of what might have happened inside the van. It is not clear whether any additional evidence backs up the prisoner’s version, which is just one piece of a much larger probe.

The prisoner, who is in jail, could not be reached for comment. No one answered the phone at his house, and an attorney was not listed in court records.

 
 
So...this is a leaked story, to a major newspaper- which guarantees the story will be re-posted/linked/shared by the traditional media and blogosphere alike.  It was written by the police and can't be confirmed by the "witness" or anybody who might have had contact with him since then...
 
...call me skeptical.
 
 
 
He was in police custody when he died.  The Baltimore Police Commissioner already admitted to flaws in the way he was handled.   I don't care how long is rap sheet was, they were responsible for his safety.  If we can't get it in is to be upset when someone dies in police custody because of intentional or incompetent conduct, we have a problem.

I haven’t seen enough to make a WAG one way or the other; but I am sure he will come forward. I’m sure someone will pay him for an interview. I suspect he is just trying to protect himself until he gets out of jail. If he was looking for money or a way out of the charges he would be saying the cops did it; many would be more than willing to accept his story then.

[btq96r]

I just don't think it would be that surprising if he did try to injure himself.

 

If you wanted to get the police in trouble, and yourself off the hook, how would you go about it? 

 

Me, I'd bash my face against the side of the van so there are gashes, bumps, or even a broken nose for my booking photo.  I certainly wouldn't try to give myself a severed spine, which could kill me, and I wouldn't even know how to go about it if I wanted that option.

 

 

I haven’t seen enough to make a WAG one way or the other; but I am sure he will come forward. I’m sure someone will pay him for an interview. I suspect he is just trying to protect himself until he gets out of jail. If he was looking for money or a way out of the charges he would be saying the cops did it; many would be more than willing to accept his story then.

 

Or they are dangeling a plea bargain or dismissial of the charges in his face for saying he thinks Gray intentionally was trying to injure himself.  I'm just not trusting a leaked story by the BPD that tries to move the spotlight from their investigation.

Edited April 30, 2015 by btq96r

[GhostDog]

btq; Spare me the "minorities in big cities" BS. The same thing happens outside the big cities and to people who are not minorities. If there were as many racists in this country as some would have us believe, we'd all be dead by now. What we have isn't racism, it's elitism and "theftism". Until such time as people realize that many of these politicians do not represent them (regardless of what they look like or what they say at election time) nothing is going to change for ANYONE. Look at the gov't in Baltimore... how can it be racism? Look at the police department and it's leadership... same question. The system isn't broken, the people are. We get the gov't we deserve; ALL of us.

As to the latest reports... it neither excuses the police, nor convicts them. It's just another piece of the puzzle. The best advice today is the same it was 3 days ago... wait and see what the investigation turns up. Hopefully it will be the truth, regardless of who is at fault.

Disclaimer: this post written by a retired cop.

[btq96r]

btq; Spare me the "minorities in big cities" BS. The same thing happens outside the big cities and to people who are not minorities. If there were as many racists in this country as some would have us believe, we'd all be dead by now. What we have isn't racism, it's elitism and "theftism". Until such time as people realize that many of these politicians do not represent them (regardless of what they look like or what they say at election time) nothing is going to change for ANYONE. Look at the gov't in Baltimore... how can it be racism? Look at the police department and it's leadership... same question. The system isn't broken, the people are. We get the gov't we deserve; ALL of us.

As to the latest reports... it neither excuses the police, nor convicts them. It's just another piece of the puzzle. The best advice today is the same it was 3 days ago... wait and see what the investigation turns up. Hopefully it will be the truth, regardless of who is at fault.

 

It's a fact that minorities are engaged (I’m speaking non-lethal engagements here, ie: police stops, arrests) more than non-minorities by law enforcement, largely as a result of profiling.  From Boston, to New York, to DC...this is a problem up and down the densely populated northeast corridor.  Throw in Chicago, and Los Angeles for good measure, and we have a national problem. 

 

I'd be ready to take to the streets if I was in that demographic and can't fault their emotions.  When they march on City Hall and the Police stations they have my full support.  That support is non-existent for the folks looting CVS and other places of business.  It's a shame the rioters are taking away the attention from the legitimate protests.

 

 

Disclaimer: this post written by a retired cop.

 

So?

Edited April 30, 2015 by btq96r

[Omega]

If you wanted to get the police in trouble, and yourself off the hook, how would you go about it? 

 

Me, I'd bash my face against the side of the van so there are gashes, bumps, or even a broken nose for my booking photo.  I certainly wouldn't try to give myself a severed spine, which could kill me, and I wouldn't even know how to go about it if I wanted that option.

 

 

 

Or they are dangeling a plea bargain or dismissial of the charges in his face for saying he thinks Gray intentionally was trying to injure himself.  I'm just not trusting a leaked story by the BPD that tries to move the spotlight from their investigation.

Yes, that is exactly how someone may try and do it.  But trying to do that while handcuffed can lead you to severely hurt yourself and possibly aggravate an already injured spine.  Like I said, we can come up with many scenarios pro and con but nobody can definitively say who caused the injury.  Did the police break protocol?  Certainly seems so but even so it does not rise to the level of all that chaos.  Now remember, I am speaking about the rioting, not the peaceful protests which does not include the hassling of the populace. 

[GhostDog]

People allowing themselves to be manipulated by way of their emotions is how we end up with people in city hall who need to be protested against.

You say the higher number of LE contacts is due to profiling. You might want to also look at the amount of crime in the areas you point out. If you were part of that demographic and were consistently victimized in your own neighborhood, you might also see things differently. Most times other people in the same demographic are the biggest losers. It doesn't matter what the demographic is. If you look at a city with few or no minorities, I would guess you would see more LE contacts in the high crime areas.                                       I have seen this too many times myself: everyone wants "something done" about drugs, but no one wants their sister's kid to go to jail. It doesn't work like that. That's why I say that the people are broken, not the system.

I am not making excuses for LE. When bad cops are not dealt with, the effect is the same as when criminals are allowed to walk. It's bad for everyone. I agree with you about the peaceful protests. That is how it should be in this country.

What I'm cautioning against is letting the usual suspects turn this into another "racial" problem. If we allow that, nothing will change, the same people will profit from it, and we will ALL (red, yellow, black, and white) lose in the end... except for the politicians selling that crap.

[JAB]

It's a fact that minorities are engaged (I’m speaking non-lethal engagements here, ie: police stops, arrests) more than non-minorities by law enforcement, largely as a result of profiling.  From Boston, to New York, to DC...this is a problem up and down the densely populated northeast corridor.  Throw in Chicago, and Los Angeles for good measure, and we have a national problem. 

 

I'd be ready to take to the streets if I was in that demographic and can't fault their emotions.  When they march on City Hall and the Police stations they have my full support.  That support is non-existent for the folks looting CVS and other places of business.  It's a shame the rioters are taking away the attention from the legitimate protests.

 

 

 

So?

 

To look at it the other way, though, maybe more minorities are engaged in police contact than non-minorities because more people who commit crimes happen to be minorities.  I am not just making this up.  I recently saw an interview with a group of police chiefs (can't remember which news program or show it was on) where the reporter addressed just such a question to one of the white chiefs, trying to put him on the spot.  It didn't exactly work out that way, however, as one of the black chiefs jumped in and stated that what people have to consider is that, in his district, for instance, roughly 80% of crimes were committed by black men.  So, if 80% of crimes are committed by black men (in a particular area, anyhow) then one would naturally expect that roughly 80% of police encounters would be with black men.  What, the cops should stop and question 85 year old white grandmothers who haven't committed a crime just to avoid being accused of 'profiling'?  It is kind of like with terrorist screenings.  When the most likely terrorists are Muslim men of middle eastern ancestry then screening a blonde haired, 8 year old Jewish girl makes no sense except to the politically correct who insist that profiling - which can be a useful tool - not be used.

 

Further, burning down your neighbor's house, trashing the cars of people who live in your neighborhood, destroying the businesses in your neighborhood and using so-called 'righteous' anger as an excuse to steal a new television is not 'protesting'.  It is a bunch of destructive a-holes using the death of someone they likely never even met as an excuse to tear crap up and steal stuff.  If they were amassed outside of a police station, etc. it might play more as 'protest' but as it is it this is simply trying to excuse yet more criminal behavior under the cover of 'racial inequality.'  I mean, if rioting, looting and theft from private businesses who have nothing to do with the police or what happened to Gray are any kind of indication of the type of people these folks are then I'd say it is no wonder they have more 'encounters' with police than other portions of society.

 

BTW, I have been stopped for driving while white.  It was when I was in college at UT and stayed at my grandmother's house during the week.  She lived at 2314 East Fifth, just off Magnolia, in a neighborhood that had become predominately black over the years.  The officer claimed he had stopped me for a tail light that was out (checked when I got home - the tail light was not out.)  He proceeded to ask, "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"  As badly as I wanted to respond that I was unaware that martial law had been invoked and that Americans were no longer free to travel where they chose, I instead answered that I lived there.  He then asked why my DL had a Loudon address and I told him that my home address was Loudon but that I lived with my grandmother through the week.  He then asked the address and my grandmother's name so I told him and he (obvously grudgingly) let me go on my way.  I must admit that the encounter ticked me off - especially after I realized he had outright lied about my tail light.  I did not, however, use my anger as an excuse to go break the window out of the local pawnshop and steal myself a bad-a** stereo system.

Edited April 30, 2015 by JAB

[Oh Shoot]

It's a fact that minorities are engaged (I’m speaking non-lethal engagements here, ie: police stops, arrests) more than non-minorities by law enforcement, largely as a result of profiling.  From Boston, to New York, to DC...this is a problem up and down the densely populated northeast corridor.  Throw in Chicago, and Los Angeles for good measure, and we have a national problem. ...

 

People of color make up a much higher percentage of the prison population per capita than whites. Is that due to "profiling" and "racism", or just a reflection of the fact that they indeed do commit a disproportionate percentage of the crime?

 

If so, then obviously our prison population should at least double, so that white crime is more realistically reflected? Or that black/Hispanic crime should go unenforced to match the rate of non-enforcement of white crime?

 

Muslims are reported to commit a much higher rate of domestic and worldwide terrorism than all the other religions combined. Is that a reflection of the bias of both the US and the rest of the world?

 

Just suggesting that perhaps not all seemingly "racist" disproportionate stats are necessarily thus. The history of "how we got here" is another discussion entirely.

 

- OS

 

edit: wow, virtual echo of your post, JAB. I got the "new post" while typing, but didn't take time to read it before posting.
 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[mikegideon]

People of color make up a much higher percentage of the prison population per capita than whites. Is that due to "profiling" and "racism", or just a reflection of the fact that they indeed do commit a disproportionate percentage of the crime?

 

If so, then obviously our prison population should at least double, so that white crime is more realistically reflected? Or that black/Hispanic crime should go unenforced to match the rate of non-enforcement of white crime?

 

Muslims are reported to commit a much higher rate of domestic and worldwide terrorism than all the other religions combined. Is that a reflection of the bias of both the US and the rest of the world?

 

Just suggesting that perhaps not all seemingly "racist" disproportionate stats are necessarily thus. The history of "how we got here" is another discussion entirely.

 

- OS

 

edit: wow, virtual echo of your post, JAB. I got the "new post" while typing, but didn't take time to read it before posting.
 

 

Nobody is really responsible for their actions. Haven't you listened to president Oblama?

[Oh Shoot]

Nobody is really responsible for their actions. Haven't you listened to president Oblama?

 

I really hate that guy. ;)

 

 

 

- OS

Edited April 30, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[mikegideon]

I really hate that guy. ;)

 

 

 

- OS

 

Me too

[Oh Shoot]

Me too

 

I know, was just echoing your oft posted sentiment.

 

But I really do too.

 

- OS

[JAB]

btq; Spare me the "minorities in big cities" BS. The same thing happens outside the big cities and to people who are not minorities. If there were as many racists in this country as some would have us believe, we'd all be dead by now. What we have isn't racism, it's elitism and "theftism". Until such time as people realize that many of these politicians do not represent them (regardless of what they look like or what they say at election time) nothing is going to change for ANYONE. Look at the gov't in Baltimore... how can it be racism? Look at the police department and it's leadership... same question. The system isn't broken, the people are. We get the gov't we deserve; ALL of us.

As to the latest reports... it neither excuses the police, nor convicts them. It's just another piece of the puzzle. The best advice today is the same it was 3 days ago... wait and see what the investigation turns up. Hopefully it will be the truth, regardless of who is at fault.

Disclaimer: this post written by a retired cop.

 

I had a conversation along these lines with a black coworker, once.  This was a few years ago when the shrub was president.  We started talking about race and I told her that, in my opinion, it wasn't the whites oppressing the blacks or the blacks problems for whites (she used the term 'blacks' of 'black folk', not 'African Americans', herself.)  Heck, I'm too busy trying to survive to have time to oppress anyone.  Instead, it is the people who either make money and gain fame from the convlict or who are able to get away with things that oppress us all (politicians) because we are too busy being at each others' throats to see where the real problem lies.  I went on to say that I have more in common with the honest, hard working black man down the street who - like me - gets up and goes to work everyday, pays taxes and has little influence over the way things are done than I have with the Bushes, the Clintons or Bill Gates and he has more in common with me than with Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.  She nodded her head for much of what I was saying and, when I finished, stated that she thought I was absolutely correct.

[mikegideon]

Yep. Racial conflict is profitable for the Oblama administration, and the Democratic party in general. Ginned up racism doesn't bother me near as much as the real reasons behind it.

[JAB]

Yep. Racial conflict is profitable for the Oblama administration, and the Democratic party in general. Ginned up racism doesn't bother me near as much as the real reasons behind it.

 

Well, I'd say it is profitable for the Republicans, too, in some ways.  It is profitable for all politicians and other folks who wield power 'behind the scenes' as it keeps the masses occupied and divided to the point that most folks don't look up and realize, "Hey, it isn't my neighbor whose actions are oppressing me - it's Obama/Clinton/Bush/Haslam, etc."

[EssOne]

In one of the early scenes of the movie "Patton", General Patton is doing a walk-through of the Headquarters of an infantry division that had been beaten bloody at the battle of Kasserine Pass. As he walked down a darkish hallway he tripped over a GI who was laying on the floor sleeping. Not knowing who had just kicked him, the Private on the floor yelled: Hey! I'm trying to get some sleep down here!!" to which General Patton said: "Well go back to sleep. You're the only sonofabitch in this Headquarters who knows what he's trying to do."

 

Think it would help if we sent some sleepy privates to City Hall in Baltimore? I'm sure they too would be the only..........................................

Edited April 30, 2015 by EssOne

[btq96r]

To look at it the other way, though, maybe more minorities are engaged in police contact than non-minorities because more people who commit crimes happen to be minorities.

 

Further, burning down your neighbor's house, trashing the cars of people who live in your neighborhood, destroying the businesses in your neighborhood and using so-called 'righteous' anger as an excuse to steal a new television is not 'protesting'.

 

People of color make up a much higher percentage of the prison population per capita than whites. Is that due to "profiling" and "racism", or just a reflection of the fact that they indeed do commit a disproportionate percentage of the crime?

 

 

I think there is a marked difference between committing and convicted when we talk about crimes, with targeting minorities leading to the large discrepancy in the latter.  With all the laws on the books, a heavy enough police presence could turn white suburbia into a heavy crime zone given enough time and a robust enough DA office willing to prosecute.  The "war on drugs" related crimes/convictions are bringing in a lot of the statistics here.  In my mind, it's time for a hard look at those laws...but that's  side subject, probably.

 

I also never said that the rioting was a form of protesting.  I would like to think I'm clear enough on only supporting protesting against the government and the actions of the police, not random looting and destruction in the community.  I think blocking streets, defying a curfew, disobeying orders to disperse, etc..are legitimate methods of protest, but destroying whatever business you run across is not.

[JAB]

I also never said that the rioting was a form of protesting. I would like to think I'm clear enough on only supporting protesting against the government and the actions of the police, not random looting and destruction in the community. I think blocking streets, defying a curfew, disobeying orders to disperse, etc..are legitimate methods of protest, but destroying whatever business you run across is not.

My point was that a lot of the people shouting about how the police are 'unfairly' profiling them are the same people who are rampantly committing crimes in the riots. There is a certain amount of irony to people committing crimes to 'protest' the idea that police are (supposedly unfairly) 'profiling' them as people who commit crimes. They are basically just proving that the cops are right. Edited April 30, 2015 by JAB

[tnguy]

 

To look at it the other way, though, maybe more minorities are engaged in police contact than non-minorities because more people who commit crimes happen to be minorities.  I am not just making this up.

 

True enough. However, what this means that when the police misbehave, it falls disproportionately within those communities. It has a multiplicative effect. You have to look at the variables you can control and work with what you can. To me, that appears to be ending the justice system (as controlled by our democratically elected representatives) allowing bad cops to have an easy ride. We can also discuss crime rates but that's a whole other can of worms.

Edited April 30, 2015 by tnguy

[GhostDog]

btq: Police presence does not produce high crime areas. Nor is all of suburbia "white". But I find it interesting that you believe that.

[GhostDog]

tnguy makes a good point about police presence and bad cops. That makes perfect sense. Even if only 1% (made up number, I don't even have a guess at an accurate %) of cops are bad, that 1% will show itself where there is more police activity regardless of the demographics of the area.

[JPR1959]

On the Freddie Gray matter--

 

[DaveTN]

It's a fact that minorities are engaged (I’m speaking non-lethal engagements here, ie: police stops, arrests) more than non-minorities by law enforcement, largely as a result of profiling.

The first part of your statement is fact if you are looking at percentages as compared to the population. How much experience do you have as a Police Officer or working around them to come to your conclusion on the cause?

[TNWNGR]

Man this thread's gone a bit deeper south then I'd expected with some pretty strong based on "media reports". There's a lot that could be said and more that shouldn't but here's what I'm certain of. None of us here know what really happened in Baltimore other than a subject was placed into police custody with injuries and not immediately provided medical treatment. I don't know why that happened because I wasn't there. None of you were either. That subject may or may not have sustained other injuries in a transport van, either self induced or otherwise. The same I/We weren't there applies. Some level of negligence is suspiciously possible but excessive force or civil rights violations? More data's needed. I'm suspicious but that proves nothing.