repubs socialists?

[Daniel]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/6/44012/2437/542/655441

A Republican Says It Better Than I Ever Could

by thereisnospoon

Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:36:50 AM PST

About a month ago I wrote that America is not now, and has never been, a conservative country. Paul Rosenberg, Eric Alterman, and Think Progress have also done an excellent job swatting away at this meme.

But the best argument that America is indeed a center-left nation was penned without fanfare by one of the Republicans at RedState.com, nephewmiltie, in response to a post assessing the grim future of the GOP.

In just a few short grafs, nephewmiltie exposes the entire GOP economic fraud better than I've seen any progressive do.

* thereisnospoon's diary :: ::

*

1. People are not afraid of Socialism, it is an acceptable political outcome.

Well, be honest. The voters have long supported socialism. This country was dominated for 50 years by the New Deal coalition, remember? The Reagan and Gingrich revolutions were never against the New Deal. They were against the Great Society. Thus, people have never opposed socialism for themselves. People have for decades wanted free public schools, grants to go to college, retirements, medical care, money to keep their businesses and farms afloat, etc. So in other words, Americans supported the socialism that benefitted them and people like them. They just opposed it for the other guy. The Great Society was easy pickings, because it went to a small segment of society that, let's face it, most people didn't like anyway.

In other words, when most of Europe went hard right in the wake of global depression, America went socialist with FDR and the New Deal--and loved it. But when that New Deal got extended to minorities and the desperately poor, many people freaked out. The Old Dixiecratic South switched to the GOP, and the rest is history.

But the GOP never even seriously tried to cut off the spigot of the huge amounts of money going to "real Americans." By contrast, the GOP actually gave away more money to their constituents than the Democrats ever dreamed of giving to their inner city base. Remember when Democrats were pointing out that "red state America" was a net economic drain while "blue state America" paid more taxes than they spent? It was 100% true, yet the next GOPer who stood up before his "real American" constituents of suburbanites and middle Americans and told them that they needed to get off welfare and stand on their own two feet would be the first. No, that was a message for the folks in Barack Obama's inner city, not the Iowans whose economic boom the past few years has been totally due to the government funded ethanol industry.

In other words, the Republican Party isn't about "small government": it's about socialism for corporations and rich white people.

The GOP needs to come up with a "no socialism for anybody" message instead of the "no socialism for the people who we don't like and don't vote for us but plenty of socialism for 'our types of people the real Americans'" message and actions that have dominated the GOP since 1980.

By the way: small government Sarah Palin actually increased spending in her state. So why did we presume that she supported small government and less spending? Simple: because she is a Republican from a state that doesn't have a Chicago, Detroit or Harlem in it. That is precisely the problem that I am speaking of.

Ouch. In other words, the Republican Party is, above all, a party of lying racist thugs who steal money from the electorate, and have gotten away with it because they refuse to spend it on black people. That's really all she wrote.

And the worst news for the GOP? The country just elected an African-American. As I said many moons ago, Obama's election means the GOP is screwed, because every day an African-American family lives in the White House, is another day the Southern Strategy dies, and people get used to the idea of African-Americans being not "other", but American just like them.

The racist lie upon which the GOP has predicated itself is exposed. We're ALL "socialists" under their definition, with the rare exception of a few in the utterly discredited Club for Growth crowd. It's just that some of us with a moral sense want to put that "socialism" to work for all of us, while others are content to advocate only for "socialism" for our rich, white, and corporate citizens.

Thank you, nephewmiltie, for putting it better than I ever could.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Daniel

[Daniel]

Views - 23

Replies - 0

whats up with that?

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

The logical conclusion would be that no one has anything to say about this.

[towerclimber37]

More than likely its because nobody reads this blog. LOL!

[fury2neon]

The GOP has been socialist for a long time Teddy Roosevelt was one of the most outspoken progressives (socialist) in the nations history.

Hoover and Ike pushed through a kinds of socialist laws.

Ike was a "Christian socialist" ie a socialist that still believes in God. So he instituted big government programs and stamped something about God on them. And Nixon was not much better. Nixon started the socialist price controls that Carter put on steroids.

Right now we are moving from a Coolidge (Bush II) socalist government to a Hoover (Obama) Socalist governmemt.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

In our society, it would be hard for a true free market capitalist to get elected. McCain/Palin supporting the bailout was clearly an example of socialist principles at work. They felt they had to to do this. Both to appease the money interests that are so heavily involved in the market ("big business"), and also to appease the wailing masses that got themselves into an upside down mortgage to the tune of 60% of their gross income.

[Guest 44M]

there is nothing wrong with socialism, I could never understand why so many people are afraid of it, socialism is nothing else but a sistem which favores working man and a middle class....if I was Gates or Trump or had my oil wells in Texas than I would probably be against it, but since I`m a poor woorking man barely making from paycheck to paycheck I don`t see why would I vote for someone who will be taking care of rich people.... middle class working people who vote against socialism are voting aginst their own interest....

Db

and what some people say "did you ever get a job from a poor man"...yes, I had a trucking business and 3 drivers , and they all made ,more money than I did, I never made not even close to $250.000 a year, neither do 90% of other small business

Edited November 9, 2008 by 44M

[Guest cjr]

250,000.00 is far from being rich!!!

[Guest Astra900]

I'd rather starve and fail on my own than prosper as as some MAN'S marionette!

[Mike.357]

250,000.00 is far from being rich!!!

I am not sure in what context this statement is meant. But someone who make 250K a year is doing pretty well. Certainly well out of middle class.

Being rich is not in my mind based on a annual salary but rather accumulated wealth. If I am making 250K i can accumulate some wealth fairly rapidly. Making what I do there is barely enough to put much away. But I do not really consider myself poor either. I choose to not live to far over my head.

All In all i feel lucky to be in my situation, I know plenty of people who have it a LOT worse.

[tnvols]

when i hear the word socialism, all I can think about is communism.... from my view they don't seem that far apart.

[Guest dkirby]

Today's Republican party does contain some socialist ideals, they are simply too far entrenched into American lives to withdraw from now. How many people do you think would support privatizing public schools? A candidate who did would never get elected, unless the masses of people in America changed their minds completely.

However, the article posted seemed to imply that both parties are equally socialist, and that is simply not the case. Though McCain was far too liberal for my tastes, he at least saw the stupidity of socialized healthcare, college education, etc.

there is nothing wrong with socialism, I could never understand why so many people are afraid of it, socialism is nothing else but a sistem which favores working man and a middle class....if I was Gates or Trump or had my oil wells in Texas than I would probably be against it, but since I`m a poor woorking man barely making from paycheck to paycheck I don`t see why would I vote for someone who will be taking care of rich people.... middle class working people who vote against socialism are voting aginst their own interest....

Db

and what some people say "did you ever get a job from a poor man"...yes, I had a trucking business and 3 drivers , and they all made ,more money than I did, I never made not even close to $250.000 a year, neither do 90% of other small business

Socialism is a "sistem" that punishes excellence. If you work harder than most, or are more creative than most, your works will turn up fruitless. When the government sees fit to take more money from more successful people, it eliminates the initiative to be prosperous.

Capitalism is, at it's base, a system that gives you what you earn. If you work hard and earn a good education, then you will succeed.

I dropped out of college after two semesters, because I decided in my infinite wisdom that I was smart enough and wanted to go out and make some money. After a few months of working construction, and on cell phone towers, I realized that I had f'd up. So, I started working two full time jobs to save enough money to go back to college. I did this for over a year and a half, and saved up what was necessary to pay for three years tuition. I have a lot more grey hair now, and more wrinkles in my face than most people my age, but you had better believe that I am damn proud of what I have, and what I have earned. I never would have appreciated getting to go back to college if I had just quit working full time and started a part time job to qualify for a government grant. Now that I am in school, my family's income has decreased, and I now qualify for government assisted health care. I laughed when I read that, tore it up, and provided my own damn health care. Proud and stubborn? Maybe, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

On this same token, the government hand outs that are an intricate part of socialism take away the pride and work ethic of those who finally succumb to taking them. The less you work, the more you qualify for, right? But on whose dime?

[fury2neon]

Winston Churchill said

that with capitalism all people have the chance to become wealthy

(And that has been proven through history see England before 1910, USA till 1914, India since 1990, Japan since 1946, South Korea since 1952, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc...)

and under socialism they are poor and miserable equally.

(And that has been proven through history see Russia, Cuba, Zimbabwe, China, North Korea etc...)

[Smith]

I am not sure in what context this statement is meant. But someone who make 250K a year is doing pretty well. Certainly well out of middle class.

Being rich is not in my mind based on a annual salary but rather accumulated wealth. If I am making 250K i can accumulate some wealth fairly rapidly. Making what I do there is barely enough to put much away. But I do not really consider myself poor either. I choose to not live to far over my head.

All In all i feel lucky to be in my situation, I know plenty of people who have it a LOT worse.

The problem is you are thinking about a guy working for someone and that is his salary. The problem is small businesses, even the smallest mom and pop, gross more than 250k and those are the ones they are going to raise the taxes on. The corporations can handle them small buisness can not. If you are grossing 250k but have operation cost of 220k then you will not be in buisness long. The tax hikes Obama is talking about will not close the divide between incomes, but rather enlarge it. They will drive small buisness out and consolidate that income in the corporations. When that is accomplished the Governement can "regulate" those companies much easier and pervasivley, effectively nationalizing them.

Don't believe me? 1. read the histories (both past and current) of socialist regimes and 2. take a look at the bailouts, reforms, over sight, and regulatory measures being implimented as we speak. It is not coinscidence. These "words" sound good in a speach but are they way the federal government takes control.

[Guest canynracer]

I am not sure in what context this statement is meant. But someone who make 250K a year is doing pretty well. Certainly well out of middle class.

Being rich is not in my mind based on a annual salary but rather accumulated wealth. If I am making 250K i can accumulate some wealth fairly rapidly. Making what I do there is barely enough to put much away. But I do not really consider myself poor either. I choose to not live to far over my head.

All In all i feel lucky to be in my situation, I know plenty of people who have it a LOT worse.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Guest 44M]

what I ment was when Obama is talking about raising taxes for the business making over 250K, that actually doesn`t do anything for 90% of small businesses in US, because they don`t make 250K per year, I didn`t , with my 3 trucks I got up to 180K, so by no means I was a rich capitalist but my drivers were always paid on time and fair, me in the other hand, I till this day have meetings with IRS about money I owe them...

Db

[Guest 44M]

when i hear the word socialism, all I can think about is communism.... from my view they don't seem that far apart.

and thats what most people think, let me explain..

1. communism...

was actaully a SciFi novel about a society where all the people would be

equal... it never ment to be anything but an utopistic dream...the

problem is that many dictators like Stalin named their dictatorships a

"communism" when in reality, didn`t have nothing at all to do with the

real idea of communism.

2. socialism...

is a system that is society friendly and instead to be oriented to money

and capital it is oriented more torward middle class and working man.

Not everyone is equal in socialism, there is people who are rich but

not rich to the point that even goverment can`t regulate them. In

socialism goverment owns a bigest corporations (there is still small

business all over the place) , but even tho goverment owns a companies

people who work there are managing them thru their unions.In this case

there is no big fat paychecks for CEO`s but more money for the workers.

Of course, some people make more money than others, depends on the

position,experience and education.

3. corporate-socialism...

is what we have in US today, system that is corporation friendly and will

bail out ,protect and help big corporations at the middle class and

working man`s cost.

...as you can see, you don`t have to be affrraid of communism because communism in his original version does not even egzists and it never did. You don`t have to be affraid of socialism because it is a system that would be taking care of you and your family (job security,free health care,free education etc...) the only thing you should be afraid of is the system we have here today, corporate-socialism, because you and me and all the other middle class hard working people in this country will be forced to bail out and give their money to help big corporations..so, before you know it you will have 2 or 3 credit cards or other financings from (let say) City Group and on top of paying off your loans with interest to them, you will also be taxed so they can get that money too to finance their operations.Now, I think this is something we all should be affraid of...

Db

[Smith]

and thats what most people think, let me explain..

1. communism...

was actaully a SciFi novel about a society where all the people would be

equal... it never ment to be anything but an utopistic dream...the

problem is that many dictators like Stalin named their dictatorships a

"communism" when in reality, didn`t have nothing at all to do with the

real idea of communism.

2. socialism...

is a system that is society friendly and instead to be oriented to money

and capital it is oriented more torward middle class and working man.

Not everyone is equal in socialism, there is people who are rich but

not rich to the point that even goverment can`t regulate them. In

socialism goverment owns a bigest corporations (there is still small

business all over the place) , but even tho goverment owns a companies

people who work there are managing them thru their unions.In this case

there is no big fat paychecks for CEO`s but more money for the workers.

Of course, some people make more money than others, depends on the

position,experience and education.

3. corporate-socialism...

is what we have in US today, system that is corporation friendly and will

bail out ,protect and help big corporations at the middle class and

working man`s cost.

...as you can see, you don`t have to be affrraid of communism because communism in his original version does not even egzists and it never did. You don`t have to be affraid of socialism because it is a system that would be taking care of you and your family (job security,free health care,free education etc...) the only thing you should be afraid of is the system we have here today, corporate-socialism, because you and me and all the other middle class hard working people in this country will be forced to bail out and give their money to help big corporations..so, before you know it you will have 2 or 3 credit cards or other financings from (let say) City Group and on top of paying off your loans with interest to them, you will also be taxed so they can get that money too to finance their operations.Now, I think this is something we all should be affraid of...

Db

Wow! Karl would have been proud! 44m for propaganda minister! You need to reread the Manifesto as well us study your Industrial Revolution history. Unless you are calling the communist Manifesto a sci-fi novel you are completely wrong.

BTW - Communism is the governmental form of the ideology of socialism. Democracy is governmental form of the ideology of capitalism.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Smith

[Smith]

...as you can see, you don`t have to be affrraid of communism because communism in his original version does not even egzists and it never did. You don`t have to be affraid of socialism because it is a system that would be taking care of you and your family (job security,free health care,free education etc...) the only thing you should be afraid of is the system we have here today, corporate-socialism, because you and me and all the other middle class hard working people in this country will be forced to bail out and give their money to help big corporations..so, before you know it you will have 2 or 3 credit cards or other financings from (let say) City Group and on top of paying off your loans with interest to them, you will also be taxed so they can get that money too to finance their operations.Now, I think this is something we all should be affraid of...Db

Let's see here I should fear the highly successful system of the American experience and move more to the worry free system as experienced by Cuba, China, USSR, etc? Yeah that makes sense!?:drama:

[Guest sling]

You all could read that?!

Read the Communist Manifesto written by Marx and Engels.

Its what the basis of communism is based off of. Have you read it?

The Communist Manifesto has four sections. In the first section, it discusses the Communists theory of history and the relationship between proletarians and bourgeoisie. The second section explains the relationship between the Communists and the proletarians. The third section addresses the flaws in other, previous socialist literature. The final section discusses the relationship between the Communists and other parties.

Though there are a lot of governments that claim communism they are not necessarily purely so per definition. The ideas of communism that are written out may sound desirable by some but simply do not work.

Edited November 25, 2008 by sling

[mousegunner]

Both Socialism and Communism are belief systems that are thoroughly opposed to God and God's laws.

God says "Thou shalt not steal." and "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God."

Both Socialism and Communism deny your right to private property. They both say that everything you have really belongs to society as a whole. A Communist government will literally own everything: factories, land and houses. A Socialist government claims not to own all those things, but "merely" claims the authority to tell all the owners what they may or may not do with their property. It amounts to the same thing.

"Thou shalt not steal" validates your right to personal property. It says there is an area of your life, and your property, that is not "Caesar's."

Socialist and Communist governments supplant and replace God. They assume the rights of God over you and me. They also assume the right to be God over how you raise your children, and what kind of education your children must have, in order to be orderly and productive citizen/workers. Socialism and Communism are completely opposed to the idea of personal freedom and responsibility. At worst S and C are tyrants. At best, S and C are a smothering Nanny State, making us do this and that "for your own good."

Whatever happened to the sentiment of "give me liberty or give me death?" I don't want the government to tell me what I can do with my stuff. I don't want the government to take care of me, either. My word to them is: Just go away and LEAVE ME ALONE!

Instead of the "land of the free and the home of the brave," we have become the "land of the regulated, and the home of the sissies."

[Guest sling]

Both Socialism and Communism are belief systems that are thoroughly opposed to God and God's laws.

However, and not to turn this into a debate, there are those of us that solemnly believe that religion and government should never be mixed. Ever.

+1 on the country of sissies comment.

[mousegunner]

believe that religion and government should never be mixed. Ever.

I would suggest in a very friendly way that what you propose has never happened in the history of the world, and is impossible. Everyone has some kind of religion. I have a very broad definition of religion: I include all the isms that people elevate to a life-guiding status: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, Atheism, Materialism, etc. etc. As Bob Dylan sang: "Everybody's got to serve SOMEBODY." Whatever principle ultimately guides your life, your purpose, your concept of reality, that's your religion (in my opinion). The important thing is that we don't get people in power who want to IMPOSE their particular religion on everyone else.

[Daniel]

I do not have a religon. or an ISM.

[mousegunner]

My momma taught me to never argue with a Moderator!