A thought from a member on the LE threads.

[Chucktshoes]

I would like to offer a word of caution to folks like me who may be critical of policing practices. I've been around here long enough to see this board through various swings regarding law enforcement. I know TGO David has made his support of LE and his aims to have this board to be an inviting place for LE on multiple occasions very clear. Whenever the general mood of the board swings too far into an anti-LE direction, conversations get locked down, folks get banned and the topic becomes anathema. I implore folks to ensure that the criticisms they have to offer regarding LE are respectful, and relevant to Tennessee and/or the particular discussion at hand. I believe that the subject is an important one and discussion of it can be had here if done correctly. We have recently seen an explosion of news stories nationally regarding the wrongdoing of officers. Ultimately I think this is a good thing as it can help serve to reign in excesses in the LE culture that I think have been allowed to flourish in recent years. That doesn't mean we need to post every random story on the subject we come across. Please folks, let's not go too overboard here in this venue and cause another time frame where we aren't allowed to broach the issue. I don't think anyone is well served by that.

I am admittedly one of the most critical members of this community of police and policing practices, but I still think we can have this conversation in a reasonable manner based in logic and reason without needless bashing of either side.

 

 

 

***Not trying to overstep my bounds, or play mod here with this general word of caution. I just don't want to needlessly wear the patience of the administration on this subject or see anyone banned in a heated moment for ill-advised statements.***

[Erik88]

Well said Elliot

[TGO David]

Good post.

[EssOne]

I really appreciate your words, sir. I don't mind criticism and I'll always try to offer a perspective from the other side of the badge as best as I can, even in the case of very inflammatory incidents that have a lot of people riled up. But 68 guys in my outfit died in my 28 years in the field and derision is something that goes down hard with me for that reason. So thank you very much for your insightful comments. You'll probably notice I've eliminated my avatar, signature, and pared my profile down to nothing. I was leaving TGO for the reasons you mention. I'll put them back tomorrow and stick around. Thanks again.

[Chucktshoes]

I really appreciate your words, sir. I don't mind criticism and I'll always try to offer a perspective from the other side of the badge as best as I can, even in the case of very inflammatory incidents that have a lot of people riled up. But 68 guys in my outfit died in my 28 years in the field and derision is something that goes down hard with me for that reason. So thank you very much for your insightful comments. You'll probably notice I've eliminated my avatar, signature, and pared my profile down to nothing. I was leaving TGO for the reasons you mention. I'll put them back tomorrow and stick around. Thanks again.

I'm honored that my words were that meaningful to you. I was simply trying to head off any issues at the pass as in my estimation, TGO David was quickly coming to the end of his patience with the tone of the anti-LE posts. I wasn't kidding when I described myself as likely the most critical of LE. My positions would justifiably be labeled as extreme. I don't think that precludes us in any way from being able to discuss them in a reasoned and calm manner. I haven't always been so level in my approach here (ain't that right, DaveTN?) and my initial post was a reminder for me and much as anyone else. I just think that it is advisable for all of us to keep in mind that we don't have to agree on a single thing to treat each other with respect.

[DaveTN]

I haven't always been so level in my approach here (ain't that right, DaveTN?) and my initial post was a reminder for me and much as anyone else.

And I am much kinder and nicer when discussing the issue; I learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago.

We have discussions from time to time on this forum about issues that really don’t matter much; traffic tickets, how a cop handled a traffic stop, disarming someone during a stop. But what we see going on now with cops is really troubling. When there are riots over a cop shooting a dirtbag that has tried to kill him or someone else it’s wrong. When a cop shoots a person that is no threat it’s wrong.

I served in the military and have two honorable discharges. I also served as a Police Officer. I am as proud of my Police service as I am my military service and make no bones about it.

Having cops here gives the opportunity of getting answers from those that will be responding to the calls. I was not a cop in this state and have relied on them to provide answers about how things are done here. Procedures can also change from county to county and city to city.

I have said this before and I will say it again; if you want to know what it’s like go be a cop, or if you don’t want it as a career go be an auxiliary officer. I guarantee it will change your outlook. And I will also guarantee that even if you decide not to stay with it; it will be an experience you will be glad you had.

We have some new folks here that are prior LE; I would say to them that as they have already discovered there are haters here. Don’t take the bait to turn it into an attack, that’s what they want. Most people here are pretty intelligent and can see what’s going on.

[peejman]

I really appreciate your words, sir. I don't mind criticism and I'll always try to offer a perspective from the other side of the badge as best as I can, even in the case of very inflammatory incidents that have a lot of people riled up. But 68 guys in my outfit died in my 28 years in the field and derision is something that goes down hard with me for that reason. So thank you very much for your insightful comments. You'll probably notice I've eliminated my avatar, signature, and pared my profile down to nothing. I was leaving TGO for the reasons you mention. I'll put them back tomorrow and stick around. Thanks again.

 

 

Slightly off topic I suppose, but this really jumped out at me....  That's 5 funerals every 2 years.  Maybe I'm showcasing my ignorance, but that's way more than I would have expected.   How big was the department?  All in the line of duty?  Feel free to ignore me if you don't want to talk about it... just having a hard time wrapping my head around that. 

[EssOne]

Slightly off topic I suppose, but this really jumped out at me....  That's 5 funerals every 2 years.  Maybe I'm showcasing my ignorance, but that's way more than I would have expected.   How big was the department?  All in the line of duty?  Feel free to ignore me if you don't want to talk about it... just having a hard time wrapping my head around that. 

Yes, it was and is a very dangerous job, and the figure of 68 is correct. All were in the line of duty. The size of the Department was 5,500 uniformed of all ranks with about 4,700 on the road during my years. Total officers killed in the history of the department since 1929 are 230, with the lion's share of them since the '60's. In the 22 years since my retirement another 49 officers have been killed in the line of duty.

 

I won't be offended if you want to go to the site and count them yourself. My math in my old age ain't nothing to write home about, so feel free. It also gives the dates and causes, which may also be interesting to you. If you'd like to double check my addition, count the deaths between March, 1965 and December, 1992, which should be 68, and from then to today, which should be another 49.

 

The site doesn't show disability retirements, which were running around 80% during my career. That means that a new officer only has two chances in ten of retiring with his health intact. It's probably higher now, and the Department also has picked up a couple of thousand more officers since I left. Here's the link to the Officer Down Memorial Page: https://www.odmp.org/agency/504-california-highway-patrol-California

 

My username is my old radio call sign. I was the senior Sergeant in the region, so my call sign was S-1. I simply spelled it out as "Essone." hope all of this helps. I think a lot of guys will be surprised at the figures.

Edited April 23, 2015 by EssOne

[Grand Torino]

You find morons in every profession....police not excluded. That said I just can't find the need  to comment much if it all in theses LE threads cause seldom do we know all the facts if ever and I just can't find the time or patience to reply to them. I have my own thoughts and ideas about what goes on in most of them but I doubt anyone really cares one way or another. Besides....I'm trying my best to lead a  stress free life. :P

[Caster]

I think ALL of us here, at least the ones with enough brains to fill a .25 acp case, will agree. We ALL hate bad cops. There's a lot of bad cops.
There's a lot of good cops too and they get the shaft. It's easy to blame them all when a few make the most noise. To those who swear they hate them all, be honest when you imagine your day without them.

[E4 No More]

Like DaveTN, I too am a former policeman from another state as well as military, and I am extremely proud of my service in both venues.

 

I recognize that this is TGO David's site and that he makes the rules whether I agree with them or not.

 

The problem is the definition of "Cop Bashing" is pretty subjective. I consider some A-hole coming on here and saying that all cops suck for _____ reason is cop bashing that shouldn't be tolerated, but I do not consider discussion of a particular cop's actions as such. As far as my former cop life I still have a pretty thick skin about it, and if a police officer doesn't have thick skin I suggest that they find another profession. You work a highly demanding position that can also be VERY visible and certainly scrutinized, but it is a profession that YOU chose. To be intolerant of criticism of some other officer's action is pretty silly in my opinion.

 

I respect LEOs on this forum who stand-up to critics for righteous actions and condemn the unrighteous actions. I have no respect for those who keep quiet or leave the forum butt-hurt because discussion, (and even anger), over an unrighteous act takes place.

 

But let's put this in perspective: how many times over the years have I seen posts on this forum insulting my Christian beliefs? I'm a technical sales rep for a large IT company in Nashville, so how often do I see insults towards salesmen in general and my company? Do I deserve less protection from this than LEOs do on this forum? Am I less valued as a member?

 

Food for thought.

[EssOne]

And just for the record, nobody hates bad cops like the good ones do.

Edited April 23, 2015 by EssOne

[broox]

And just for the record, nobody hates bad cops like the good ones do.

So, why are bad cops tolerated?

[Dolomite_supafly]

The litmus test for me when I am reading a post about something the LE has done is this. If the purpose of the post is to prove LE is bad, or it appears that way, then it does not need to be posted. Now I welcome intelligent discussion into the problems with LE but if the post is to prove we have bad officers then we do not need it. All professions have bad apples, and unfortunately LE does too, but LE is under and ever constant watchful eye of the public and often recorded for all the Monday morning quarterbacking. And that litmus test should apply to a lot of what gets posted to prevent the dark time in TGO's history where there was a cloud of negativity that lingered in every other post. Since the cleaning last year TGO is like the TGO I joined 5 years ago when everyone was helping out our fellow TGO family members. And despite what others may think I would rather be accused to being a little heavy handed with moderation than allow TGO to become a board filled with the negativity and the hate like a couple of years ago.

 

I will admit that I have been critical of LE, especially the bad ones, but that is in response to things I personally witnessed and become frustrated with. Everyone should be critical of bad officers, and departments, but it is also important to not allow yourself to become jaded into thinking all officers are bad because of a few. And I also realize that those officers that I am critical of do not make up the entire LE community.

 

One must also realize that officers are tasked with doing an impossible job without the equipment they need and often without being paid what they deserve for the job they are doing. I asked people often how much they would need to be paid to be spit upon, shot at, have speeding cars pass them within inches, fight complete strangers and see some of the most awful things the world has to offer. Most people I asked would say they could not be paid enough yet most officers are doing it for a lot less than most of us would work a regular job for. And this is why I believe some officers go overboard, they have become so frustrated because they want to do good but can't. And couple that on the job frustration with the likelihood they will become divorced and it is not hard to see why some act the way they do.

 

Is the LE community, as a whole, made up of thugs with a badge? Hardly, but when all the media wants is to sensationalize a story that is all we seem to see and sometimes it is hard to realize that for every bad officer there are thousands of good officers.

 

 

And just for the record, nobody hates bad cops like the good ones do.

I do have one question. Why is it that, at least the department I was part of, fellow officers would try to protect those bad officers?  I have also personally witnessed good officers struggle with the decision to do the right thing because they know once they report a bad officer they will be labeled as a rat. And even after being reported I have seen bad officers be allowed to resign that should have been fired. I have even sat in on meetings where the administrators will give the bad officer a letter of recommendation if the officer agreed to resign without fighting it. I will also say that as a supervisor I did try to fire every officer that deserved to be fired only to be frustrated by an administration that would allow them to resign and go to another jurisdiction.

[TNWNGR]

Dolomite's post pretty much sums up most of how I as a retired LEO feel about LE threads. Litigation pertaining to negative retention or not providing disciplinary histories to prospective employer's have cost many departments a lot of money. It used to be a common practice for problem officers to jump between departments that were more interested in hiring a certified officer that doing complete background checks. Any still practicing this are a lawsuit waiting to happen.    

[A.J. Holst]

I think part of the problem is many (some) enter LE as a job for a check as opposed to the passion and desire to be a "cop" Salary ranges in non metro / rural area ate not levels to attract the best of the best.

[E4 No More]

I do have one question. Why is it that, at least the department I was part of, fellow officers would try to protect those bad officers?  I have also personally witnessed good officers struggle with the decision to do the right thing because they know once they report a bad officer they will be labeled as a rat. And even after being reported I have seen bad officers be allowed to resign that should have been fired. I have even sat in on meetings where the administrators will give the bad officer a letter of recommendation if the officer agreed to resign without fighting it. I will also say that as a supervisor I did try to fire every officer that deserved to be fired only to be frustrated by an administration that would allow them to resign and go to another jurisdiction.

In my department I reported a bad officer who was the former Chief of Police and a 25-year friend of the current Chief of Police. He in fact was guilty of 1st degree assault as well as violating the rights of the same person, (de facto arrest without probable cause). I was the one punished for it - or at least they tried to but I quit rather than allowed it to happen.

[peejman]

Yes, it was and is a very dangerous job, and the figure of 68 is correct. All were in the line of duty. The size of the Department was 5,500 uniformed of all ranks with about 4,700 on the road during my years. Total officers killed in the history of the department since 1929 are 230, with the lion's share of them since the '60's. In the 22 years since my retirement another 49 officers have been killed in the line of duty.

 

I won't be offended if you want to go to the site and count them yourself. My math in my old age ain't nothing to write home about, so feel free. It also gives the dates and causes, which may also be interesting to you. If you'd like to double check my addition, count the deaths between March, 1965 and December, 1992, which should be 68, and from then to today, which should be another 49.

 

The site doesn't show disability retirements, which were running around 80% during my career. That means that a new officer only has two chances in ten of retiring with his health intact. It's probably higher now, and the Department also has picked up a couple of thousand more officers since I left. Here's the link to the Officer Down Memorial Page: https://www.odmp.org/agency/504-california-highway-patrol-California

 

My username is my old radio call sign. I was the senior Sergeant in the region, so my call sign was S-1. I simply spelled it out as "Essone." hope all of this helps. I think a lot of guys will be surprised at the figures.

 

 

4700 officers on the road helps explain that to me.  I had in mind a department about 1/10th that size.  Still, that's a lot.  Thanks for the info and for your service.

[EssOne]

Any time, sir. Glad to clear it up.

[EssOne]

 

............................I do have one question. Why is it that, at least the department I was part of, fellow officers would try to protect those bad officers?  I have also personally witnessed good officers struggle with the decision to do the right thing because they know once they report a bad officer they will be labeled as a rat. And even after being reported I have seen bad officers be allowed to resign that should have been fired. I have even sat in on meetings where the administrators will give the bad officer a letter of recommendation if the officer agreed to resign without fighting it. I will also say that as a supervisor I did try to fire every officer that deserved to be fired only to be frustrated by an administration that would allow them to resign and go to another jurisdiction.

 

I

I think all of this falls under the general title of "people." The things you bring up here are true enough, but are far from being common only to law enforcement. Different managers are willing to go to different lengths to get rid of a bad apple, as you point out here, but in agencies subject to Civil Service rules and other contracts, it's pretty hard to get away with this stuff. In small agencies having no such rules however, all bets are off. If they aren't subject to labor rules, then the frailties of men tend to rule supreme and that can lead to some pretty obnoxious goings on. In my experience, once you give the authorities power to get rid of the bad apples, then they start using it against the good ones they may not like, so the unions act to restrict this power and provide some job protection. But once you do this, once you deny them this power, then the bad apple goes back to the top of the food chain. So there is no good answer to all this stuff. You just have to do the best you can with what you have to work with and go to work somewhere else if it gets too deep to wade in.

 

As for protecting other cops, nobody wants to be a rat and cops are no different than other people in that regard.  After all, Joe Paterrno covered for a serial child molester for years and he never wore a badge in his life, nor did all the church officials who were deeply steeped in religion and nonetheless covered up the same thing on a massive basis for years..........and it goes on and on and on. "Coverup" is one of the favorite words in journalism when it comes to affairs political as well. A cop after all is a guy who was looking for a job and found one. No special angelic virtues were imparted upon his appointment and he is subject to all the frailties of other men having authority and responsibility.They are expected to live up to a higher standard and most of them do, but some don't and some supervisors and managers don't do their jobs in keeping the bad ones out either. All I can say is it ain't right, it's just the way it is, and you just have to keep on truckin' to make it as right as you can. End of Epistle.

Edited April 23, 2015 by EssOne

[Jonnin]

Good post!

 

I have nothing but respect for LEOs but it is my personal opinion that military grade weapons in the hands of the police are a bad thing, and use of deadly force should always be the absolute last resort when dealing with criminals.   The actual number of LEO "bad incidents" is extremely low in a country of our size where every day many, many people are arrested -- they simply make national headlines and create a stir that sells advertising/papers/news/etc.   Out of the millions upon millions of LEO interactions every year, there are what, 20? 50? incidents where things went horribly wrong.   That ain't too bad --- no one wants to be a victim of it, but no one wants to be t-boned in an intersection either --- crap happens.  

 

There are a few bad LEOs out there.   Its not possible to weed out every idiot from every department across this giant country. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Jonnin

[E4 No More]

I think all of this falls under the general title of "people." The things you bring up here are true enough, but are far from being common only to law enforcement. Different managers are willing to go to different lengths to get rid of a bad apple, as you point out here, but in agencies subject to Civil Service rules and other contracts, it's pretty hard to get away with this stuff. In small agencies having no such rules however, all bets are off. If they aren't subject to labor rules, then the frailties of men tend to rule supreme and that can lead to some pretty obnoxious goings on. In my experience, once you give the authorities power to get rid of the bad apples, then they start using it against the good ones they may not like, so the unions act to restrict this power and provide some job protection. But once you do this, once you deny them this power, then the bad apple goes back to the top of the food chain. So there is no good answer to all this stuff. You just have to do the best you can with what you have to work with and go to work somewhere else if it gets too deep to wade in.

 

As for protecting other cops, nobody wants to be a rat and cops are no different than other people in that regard.  After all, Joe Paterrno covered for a serial child molester for years and he never wore a badge in his life, nor did all the church officials who were deeply steeped in religion and nonetheless covered up the same thing on a massive basis for years..........and it goes on and on and on. "Coverup" is one of the favorite words in journalism when it comes to affairs political as well. A cop after all is a guy who was looking for a job and found one. No special angelic virtues were imparted upon his appointment and he is subject to all the frailties of other men having authority and responsibility.They are expected to live up to a higher standard and most of them do, but some don't and some supervisors and managers don't do their jobs in keeping the bad ones out either. All I can say is it ain't right, it's just the way it is, and you just have to keep on truckin' to make it as right as you can. End of Epistle.

Excellent post!

[Pete123]

I have made comments on several of the recent LE threads where I made specific suggestions to address bad behavior from a minority of LE.

After reading the initial comment in this thread, I tried to put myself in the shoes of LE on the forum. Here is what I have come up with.

This forum is a great source of entertainment and learning from folks with a common interest. It is very enjoyable. It should be that way for LE as well. I believe my comments were solution oriented. I also have come to feel that TGO isn't the right place to share them.

The TGO forum isn't a place to solve the worlds problems - it is a place for folks with common interests to enjoy their hobby. In light of that, I won't get involved with further LE threads.

I'm a sales professional. Unfortunately, the majority of sales people exhibit bad behavior. I get plenty of crap because of this, though am glad it isn't commonly discussed in a forum where I come to relax and enjoy my hobby.

[I am Groot!]

When people have one bad teacher, some of them think all teachers are bad.  When they have a contractor or mechanic mess them around, some of them think all contactors or mechanics are bad.  This happens with many professions, but recently police officers have bee in the forefront.  I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why some one in this day and age would want to become a police office.  The lack of respect they receive in the media and from the pubic is deplorable.  Many of the situations that we have seen played out in the media started with people not obeying simple commands from officers.  

 

That being said, we should not turn a blind eye to incompetence, negligence or illegal behavior from any profession.       

[Ted S.]

It can't be the fluoride in the water...