Running a hot bay

[itchytriggerfinger]

I experienced something a bit different this weekend at the Alabama State IDPA match. We get to one of the bays and the SO has all of us line up and "load and make ready" in order to "save time" on the line. Well, I don't know about you but I don't think I really liked that. While I feel competitive shooters are some of the safest gun handlers, I'm not sure it was the safest thing with everyone walking around, squatting, bending, and pasting targets.

I mean, come on, it doesn't take that much time to load and make ready. Not to mention, I still stood there and took my time at the line for my personal "prep" time, so they didn't save time on me.

Have you experienced this, and what are your thoughts?

[BrasilNuts]

They did that at the VA state match a few years ago, I don't remember why, once the squad was hot you had to stay in a roped off area and weren't allowed to leave. Didn't bother me at the time, all firearms remained holstered, shooters didn't paste at that match so that wasn't an issue.

[Wiljo05]

Happened to me at a match in Georgia. I opted not to go hot, which is totally within the rules, just in case I needed to step outside the stage boundaries for restroom, safe table for equipment check, ect.

Plus my routine is to chamber check and after all, we are creatures of habit and I like my pre shoot routine.

[DBTN]

As far as I am concerned all guns are always loaded and the guns were in the proper condition for a gun on the hip.

[itchytriggerfinger]

Happened to me at a match in Georgia. I opted not to go hot, which is totally within the rules, just in case I needed to step outside the stage boundaries for restroom, safe table for equipment check, ect.
Plus my routine is to chamber check and after all, we are creatures of habit and I like my pre shoot routine.

Yeah, I think my pre-stage is what really threw me off about the whole thing. Juse like you, I have a specific routine I go through to set my mind. Of course those who shoot with me know it doesn't do much good :) LOL

I will remember the opt-out next time because I just about walked out of the bay until a guy grabbed me.

[itchytriggerfinger]

As far as I am concerned all guns are always loaded and the guns were in the proper condition for a gun on the hip.

Proper condition for EDC or duty carry, but not perhaps the proper condition for a cold range during a match.

[CatsEye]

Several bays did it yesterday at AR State. I've seen it fairly often at matches. The only thing I don't like about is , like you said, it disrupts my routine.

[DMark]

Way - Way - WAY Back during some of the ancient and early Proof of Principle tactical pistol matches that would become IDPA..., at the end of the stage you were given the command "Reload/Top-Off, Make Ready, & Holster."

 

In fact you were expected to arrive Condition 1, remain Condition 1 and depart Condition 1.

 

I think it was an attempt to NOT be like some other un-spoken pistol shooting sport.

 

The squad "Load & Make Ready" was popular for a while, but I haven't seen it done for several years.  The issue that made that procedure problematic was local range rules that required firearms to remain cold until ready to be fired.    

 

Like DBTN, I agree that All Guns are Always Loaded.

 

Yet....., SOing a squad with several folks behind me that I just met and have no idea their level of training and experience..., well it gives me pause to think that they might be tempted to fondle, touch, stroke and caress lovingly their newest cool-kid blaster.

 

And you just know where their strong hand index finger will always go.........  :eek:  

 

 

 

 

[itchytriggerfinger]

You're absolutely right DMark. While I welcome novices with open arms, I have seen too many that have no business walking around with a loaded gun.

[Spiffy]

They ran all the bays but one hot at the Carolina Cup. It really wasn't a problem because after you shot that stage you were cold again.

[peejman]

Forgive me if I'm missing something here... It's ok for any yahoo who can pass the HCP test to carry a loaded gun in any sort of manner and sit across from you and your family at a restaurant, or full up their car with gas at the next pump.... but it's not ok for a group of people serious enough about it to spend significant time and money to participate in a sport that improves their skills to stand around carrying loaded guns?

Do you also wonder why cops feel the need to disarm a person carrying lawfully during a traffic stop or other encounter?

[itchytriggerfinger]

I'm not sure I ever said it was OK for "any yahoo" to carry a gun. We all know there are many who should not.

[dlmeadows]

I've done it as an SO and a competitor. I prefer to load each shooter at the line. Either way doesn't bother me

[ROCKRIVERAR15]

I am ok either way but prefer cold range/bay. When a bunch of enthusiasts are together talking shooting, equipment, etc., it can happen that one can forget and go to show his gun. I saw this a few weeks ago. A new guy went to pull his gun to show and someone spoke quik and stopped him. Had it been a hot bay and there was not the fast action of a by-stander, it could have gone bad if it were loaded. It also throws routine off. It should be one way or the other all the time IMO.

[221 Fireball]

Guess my question here would be, is it the safety officer's responsibility to assure that the shooter puts his weapon on safe before holstering? (let's us a 1911 for example)

 

If so, how does he do that watching 8-10 shooters mass load?

[Jcoop]

Wow this conversation can go on for days on end! I do carry, all the time, even at home but when at the range the one with bullets comes out and the empty one goes in a OWB holster that's set as light on the gun as I feel comfortable with, as most of us run and gun guys do. But even a empty gun can fall out, yes it happens. It's bad enough seeing a gun on the ground, now put bullets in it, times 10 or so people, running, jumping and falling to paste targets and reset steel,no thanks! A gun range, set up for competition gun sports are the safest places you can go in my opinion. Indoor, outdoor ranges where people come and go, hot or not, scare the hell out of me, because people don't realize what there doing. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count how many times I've seen the wrong end of a firearm pointed my way. Stupid people do stupid stuff so let's keep the stupid to a minimum, going all hot is not my first choice and I don't believe it saves any time, and heaven forbid someone needs a restroom break, no time saved on that squad.

[toby1304]

I thought it was funny that half of the guys in our squad were running around trying to find their lost mag when they were called on deck.
Oh and by the way, CONGRATULATIONS on your 3rd place finish in the ESP division.

[DMark]

.... but it's not ok for a group of people serious enough about it to spend significant time and money to participate in a sport that improves their skills to stand around carrying loaded guns?

 

I wish it was that way.

 

At a local match, the first time that I can see the results of that significant time and money is when I tell the new-shooter-to-me, "Load & Make Ready." 

 

Until I can see their gun-handling skills  - - - How can I know that this is the next Rob Leatham or Julie Golob who has come to the line...., or just somebody who spent a lot of money on a nice Wilson Combat?  

 

Having seen professionals who I trust make mistakes with things that go bang & boom, perhaps that might explain why I am a bit over cautious around those who just show up at a local club match and wish to draw, move and shoot while making me responsible for their safety and everyone around them.

 

But in an attempt to get back on topic.  I can see where sanctioned matches (especially Tier 4 & 5) might want to employ squad loading for a bit of time savings. 

[itchytriggerfinger]

I thought it was funny that half of the guys in our squad were running around trying to find their lost mag when they were called on deck.
Oh and by the way, CONGRATULATIONS on your 3rd place finish in the ESP division.

Thank you Toby! I was trying for a match bump, but the movers really screwed with me this weekend. Oh well, I'll give it a go again at Kettlefoot.

It was great meeting you and your wife this weekend. Let's shoot again soon.

[Spiffy]

Guess my question here would be, is it the safety officer's responsibility to assure that the shooter puts his weapon on safe before holstering? (let's us a 1911 for example)

 

If so, how does he do that watching 8-10 shooters mass load?

 

I'm not sure is any rule that puts the burden on the SO/RO because every penalty for unsafe gun handling/ND ends in DQ for the shooter.

 

It's like Unload and Show Clear. If it goes bang at hammer down it's the shooter who gets DQ'd, why didn't the SO/RO see that the gun wasn't clear when the shooter showed them an empty chamber.

[DMark]

I'm not sure is any rule that puts the burden on the SO/RO because every penalty for unsafe gun handling/ND ends in DQ for the shooter.

 

It's like Unload and Show Clear. If it goes bang at hammer down it's the shooter who gets DQ'd, why didn't the SO/RO see that the gun wasn't clear when the shooter showed them an empty chamber.

 

Its not so much a who gets a penalty as it is the stated responsibilities for Safety Officers found in Chapter 2, page 68 of the rulebook. 

 

2.1 Description - - - SO's ..... goal and purpose is to see that all shooters have a safe and enjoyable IDPA match experience by supervising and directing the shooter through each match Course of Fire......

 

The term "supervising and directing" is the one that makes lawyers ears perk up, any wavier be damned.

[peejman]

I'm not sure I ever said it was OK for "any yahoo" to carry a gun. We all know there are many who should not.

 

 

No argument there.   I just got a little of the "talking out of both sides of our mouths" vibe.  Not pointing any fingers, just an observation. 

[CatsEye]

Good shooting at AL Kenneth.

[toby1304]

Enjoyed it. Thanks to you and your Dad for pushing us out of the mud. I didn't realize he was that strong. Are you shooting the Secret City Challenge ?

[itchytriggerfinger]

No problem.  I'm going to be out of town for the SCC and he's going to be watching my boys.  I'm planning to go to the Kettlefoot match at the end of June.