Home Defense Shotgun - What is your take

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

I have a 20" Mossberg 590 with a pistol grip speed feed stock and rifle sights, that I keep 00 buck loaded in. Great shotgun!!! Very comfortable to handle and I find it very maneuverable.

Agreed. I keep mine beside the bed. Mine is a 590a1 with Magpul furniture. I like it a lot but I have come to realize a few things, one of which is of I ever have to resort to HD, I will be holding my Glock. The shot gun is just too big to lug around, even after we shortened it. It just makes more sense (for me). But I also won't be leaving my bedroom. With the amount of dogs we have, I better walk out to the situation handled. Edited June 16, 2015 by MrsMonkeyMan2500

[dcloudy777]

Only in one way IMO -- once charged all you have to do is keep pulling the trigger for 30 shots.
 
- OS

Well. That covers about 85% or so of operating the weapon right there.

Add in that the rifle has less recoil, is easier to reload, easier to hit with, easier to address stoppages...

The manual of arms of a shotgun, particularly a pump shotgun, is significantly more complicated, IMHO.

[JAB]

Well. That covers about 85% or so of operating the weapon right there.

Add in that the rifle has less recoil, is easier to reload, easier to hit with, easier to address stoppages...

The manual of arms of a shotgun, particularly a pump shotgun, is significantly more complicated, IMHO.

 

First, let me say that I am neither taking issue with your post nor am I saying you are 'wrong'.  My purpose, instead, is to point out how our experiences impact our opinions and how there are no 'absolutes' when discussing such things.

 

I have no doubt that, for you, every one of the statements in your above post is absolutely true.  For me, however::

 

1.  The rifle may have less recoil but - for me - getting back on target at short (as in likely SD/HD) ranges with a shotgun (pointed using a bead front sight, not truly aimed unless it has rifle style sights) is still generally faster.  This could possibly be addressed by simply point-shooting the rifle, I suppose, but I am not entirely sure of that - not if the shotgun is loaded with shotshells (including buckshot.)  Now, my shoulder might like me less when all is said and done. 

 

2.  Is a mag-fed rifle easier to reload from empty than a pump shotgun?  Well, I wouldn't necessarily say 'easier' but certainly faster.  On the other hand, a pump shotgun can be topped off 'on the fly' if the situation allows so there could, potentially, never be a need to truly 'reload', from empty, with the pump.

 

3.  Easier to hit with?  Having never shot an AR but having shot plenty of rifles I have to say that, in my case, absolutely, positively and unequivocally not.  Again, not when using shotshells in the shotgun (including buckshot.)  Not even close.

 

4.  Easier to address stoppages?  I can't really speak to that as I have never, ever experienced a 'jam' type stoppage with a pump shotgun (dangit, I probably just jinxed myself.)

 

Of course, that all comes from experiences where the first time I ever fired a pump shotgun I was so young and small that my dad knelt behind me to help me hold the gun up and keep it from knocking me down and where the first, two firearms I actually owned were (single shot) shotguns.  I like to think that I am at least decent with rifles and handguns but if pinned down on the subject - while I certainly don't consider myself an 'expert' in the use of any of them - I'd probably have to self-identify as a shotgunner rather than a rifleman or a handgunner.  I have simply shot shotguns a lot more, both throughout my life and more recently when shotshells were easier to find than handgun and some rifle ammo.  I certainly have no objection to rifles or handguns and both of those are likely 'sexier' than shotguns.  Heck, while I think shotguns are very effective they aren't very 'sexy', at all - but then neither am I.  :pleased:

Edited June 17, 2015 by JAB

[FTE]

I saw on one of those 'news' programs a few years back the story of a police officer who was shot in the chest by a bad guy with a shotgun at close range. The projectiles did not penetrate the vest but it still pretty much put him out of the fight, at least for a few minutes, just from the concussive force. He said it felt like getting hit in the chest with a sledge hammer and he was severely bruised, afterward. Might even have cracked his sternum and/or a rib or two, I don't remember. It is my understanding that kind of force hitting a person in the chest could, potentially, stop someone's heart.

Thank you.....

Hit a guy in the chest with 00, even if he's wearing body armor, and he will be out of the fight for awhile.

There's lots of things to be worried about in a home invasion.....body armor is real low on the list.


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[Jonnin]

I don't know that I'd agree with this, unless you're comparing learning to shoot a rifle to learning to wing shoot with a shotgun.  Shotguns are simple weapons compared to an AR, and point shooting at stationary targets is easier to learn than sight alignment and breath control.

 

this is like calling bullseye pistol techniques useless for home defense.  Well, they are!  You don't need to hold your breath and fool with sights on an AR OR a shotgun either one at home defense distances.   You point the long end of it at the bad people and spam pull the trigger.   The ar has an advantage here of holding more rounds, having less recoil,  and is generally easier to use.   Its exponentially easier to use than a pump gun, but even comparing my ar and semi auto shotgun,  the ar has 3 times the capacity, reloads a lot easier (I don't have a fancy stick loader), and about 1/20th the recoil.   Its simply easier to use.   The shotgun has the physics advantage per hit, and not much else.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Jonnin

[dcloudy777]

_{JAB, I can't fault any of your arguments.}

 

_{My "easier manual of arms" for the AR-pattern rifle versus the pump shotgun doctrine is based on the new shooter having no prior experience with either gun.  Naturally if the shooter does have experience with one or the other, that's going to make a huge difference.  I will still assert that if I need to train someone that has never shot (or only shot handguns) to defend themselves with a long gun, I feel as though I can train to "competency" with the autoloading rifle faster than the shotgun.}

 

_{Shotguns can (and absolutely should) be "topped off" whenever the time and ammo is available.  The shotgun starts the fight low on ammo... if you aren't actively engaging targets you need to be stuffing shells in the tube.  That being said, reloading a tube-fed gun is a pretty "fine motor skill" process.  It's not terribly easy to do, and very easy to screw up, especially when trying to go fast, do while moving, do while you're pants-pooping scared, etc.  I consider keeping a conventional shotgun loaded during an engagement to be a fairly advanced skill.  There also aren't really a lot of "good" ways to carry much extra shotgun ammo.  There also aren't a lot of good options for carrying extra shotgun ammo.  The sidesaddle works, but is a little slow to reload from, the shells can fall out under recoil (some carriers are better than others), and you still only get 4,6, or maybe 8 more rounds.  Picking up a 30 round mag or two and stuffing them in a pocket is light years better.}

 

_{As for being easier to hit with... that's definitely the most arguable of my assertions, but I'll stick by it, particularly for the "new shooter" as discussed above.  And like you, I'm basing some of this on my experiences.  I've been shooting 3-gun for a long time now, and taken a LOT of shots with both weapons at "in the house" ranges (7 yards and closer).  I've missed more of those shots with the shotgun (even using cheap low-recoil birdshot) than I have the rifle.}

 

_{As for stoppages, I hope I didn't help you jinx yourself.  :cool:  But I have experienced them with both auto and pump shotguns and seen them happen quite a bit.  They don't happen terribly often, but they do happen, and when they happen they can be a nightmare to get the gun running quickly.  The tube-fed mechanism just has too many moving parts for my tastes.  Pump guns getting short-stroked is a very, very real occurrence as well, particularly under stress and with less experienced shooters.} 

 

_{I write these things as a "converted" shotgun-for-defense guy myself.  I was a big time acolyte at the Altar of the Twelve Gauge.  Doing some training with shotguns and training with rifles, and then shooting both a LOT in 3-gun matches has absolutely moved my "social" shotgun" down the depth chart.  It's still there in the safe, but behind a few rifles now.  :2cents:} 

[JAB]

_{JAB, I can't fault any of your arguments.}

 _{I will still assert that if I need to train someone that has never shot (or only shot handguns) to defend themselves with a long gun, I feel as though I can train to "competency" with the autoloading rifle faster than the shotgun.}

 

Probably right on that.  I also know I am weird - in this day and age - in that I started out mostly shooting shotguns as the majority of new shooters likely start on .22 rifles.  I was in my thirties before I even owned a .22 rifle.  Heck, I owned my SKS and a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 before I owned a .22 rifle - I learned to shoot a rifle mostly on dad's (now mine) lever 30-30.  Dad had a semiauto .22 rifle when I was a kid (mom still has it) but we rarely ever shot it.  Anyhow, the recoil/report of the AR would probably not scare a new shooter or potentially cause them to develop a flinch the way a big, ol' 12 gauge might.  For someone not used to shooting and the factors involved outside of pulling the trigger, the lighter weight of the AR might appeal more to them than a 12 gauge pump which can be pretty fatiguing to hold up, especially if you aren't used to it.  In fact, my mom bought a Mossberg 500 .410 pump largely because, as she ages, a 12 gauge was a little heavy for her to hold in position for very long - that and she couldn't handle the recoil of a 12 the way she used to.

 

Like I said, I've never ever fired an AR and don't know that I will ever own one.  I have nothing against them, they just don't appeal to me very much.  That said, if I ever get to the point that I don't feel confident with the shotgun I'd have no hesitation relying on something like my M1 carbine.  Talk about high capacity (I have both 15 and 30 round mags for it) and zero recoil!  To tell the truth, at the risk of being pointed and laughed at, before I got an HD shotgun I kept my Hi Point 9mm carbine handy, just in case, and never felt unarmed - especially since I also keep a bedside handgun at the ready.

Edited June 18, 2015 by JAB

[FTE]

In the scenario where massive amounts of rounds are exchanged with an intruder, the nod certainly goes to the AR. In the more likely scenario, where few rounds are exchanged and the intruder isn't overly interested in going toe to toe with an armed homeowner, I'd say the average homeowner is more than adequately prepared with a shotgun.


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[dcloudy777]

In the scenario where massive amounts of rounds are exchanged with an intruder, the nod certainly goes to the AR. In the more likely scenario, where few rounds are exchanged and the intruder isn't overly interested in going toe to toe with an armed homeowner, I'd say the average homeowner is more than adequately prepared with a shotgun.


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Sure.

 

The problem is we rarely get to choose the kind of fight we're in.  :cool:

[Oh Shoot]

In the scenario where massive amounts of rounds are exchanged with an intruder, the nod certainly goes to the AR. In the more likely scenario, where few rounds are exchanged and the intruder...

 

You're counting on a single intruder, I see.

 

AR, or just semi-auto handgun, is quicker to get rounds out of than a pump shotgun if you need to engage several baddies quickly.

 

- OS

[Chucktshoes]

You're counting on a single intruder, I see.

 

AR, or just semi-auto handgun, is quicker to get rounds out of than a pump shotgun if you need to engage several baddies quickly.

 

- OS

You've touched on why I think the handgun is being overlooked in this discussion. I think there is good reason why it is likely the primary bump-in-the-night home defense weapon for most of us. If I am able to stay stationary or mostly so, my AR is my preferred choice. If I have to move about the house and open doors or possibly corral my daughter, my M&P is the preferred option simply because it can be more easily used with one hand. The ability to use it one handed while using the other hand for doors/kid is why I eliminated the shotgun from the HD options entirely. Hell, I don't even own a shotgun as I just didn't have a use for it anymore. Another reason my M&P is my primary is simply because I spend the most time shooting it and it is the weapon I am most proficient with. All the firepower in the world won't make a bit of difference if I can't use it effectively.

[FTE]

You're counting on a single intruder, I see.

- OS

Not even remotely. ;)


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[FTE]

Sure.

The problem is we rarely get to choose the kind of fight we're in. :cool:

you are correct, of course. However, given my lifestyle, my chances of running horde of invaders that are willing to step over their dead breatheren and try to attack me in my home are fairly slim. So, I wouldn't feel remotely undergunned with an 870.

Believe it or not, my go to home defense weapon is a HANDGUN!! The shotguns and ARs primarily stay in the safe




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[JAB]

You're counting on a single intruder, I see.

 

AR, or just semi-auto handgun, is quicker to get rounds out of than a pump shotgun if you need to engage several baddies quickly.

 

- OS

 

Honestly I think that seven or eight rounds of 00 buckshot would likely be enough to deal with more than one intruder.  I'm sure you realize that shotguns set up for HD may well hold more than the standard 4.  My Maverick Security 88, for example - as I went for the 20 inch model - holds seven in the factory tube.  No aftermarket extensions or anything.  Of course, my Savage/Stevens 320 Security model - which is actually my bedside shotgun at the moment (I really like the pistol/full buttstock that came on it) - 'only' holds 5 in the tube but I still feel okay with it.

 

I don't know that having 30 rounds on board in such a situation is all that important.  Sure, high-cap mags are nice to have and I oppose any and all attempts to limit civilian access to them but to paraphrase dcloudy777's sig line (ironically), if you are facing a threat where you are up against a large enough number of home invaders who are determined enough to kill you that you need 30 rounds to deal with them then you probably aren't going to LIVE long enough to fire all 30 rounds.  I mean, in such an unlikely (unless your name is John McClane) scenario it isn't like those eight or ten assailants aren't going to be shooting back.  I feel similarly about a situation in which seven (or, really, even five) rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot are insufficient to stop the threat - or at least give time for a reload.  Of course, for those who are concerned about that issue there are always options such as the KSG,  If that isn't enough, there are mag-fed shotgun options but honestly I believe that If 12 or 13 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot (or mixed buckshot and slugs) are insufficient to stop a home invasion then, IMO, that threat ain't gonna be stopped by one person with anything that ain't belt fed and full auto.

Edited June 22, 2015 by JAB

[Oh Shoot]

Honestly I think that seven or eight rounds of 00 buckshot would likely be enough to deal with more than one intruder...My Maverick Security 88, for example

 

Of course it is. The only real "tactical" diff is how quickly you could get next shell into chamber and on target with a pump compared to next one being immediately in there with an AR or semi-auto handgun or shotgun before you can even get your finger off the trigger.,

 

- OS

Edited June 19, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[JAB]

Of course it is. The only real "tactical" diff is how quickly you could get next shell into chamber and on target with a pump compared to next one being immediately in there with an AR or semi-auto handgun or shotgun before you can even get your finger off the trigger.,

 

- OS

 

True - but I honestly believe I can work that pump 'fast enough.'  Not as fast as a semiauto as I think that trying to run a pump that fast is (for me and the shotguns I have, anyhow) a good way to get a short stroke.  Pump shotguns are, to me, truly a place where the old addage, "Slow (within reason) is smooth and smooth is fast," holds true.  I just hope I never have to find out either way.

Edited June 22, 2015 by JAB