Home Defense Shotgun - What is your take

[Pete123]

My hope is for this to be an interesting discussion rather than an argument along the lines of which calibre / ammo is best.

 

So, starting off with a question and a comment.

 

I have a Mossy 500, 8 shot, 40.5" for home defense  Would it be better to have a shorter gun?  If so, what would be the best option?  Pistol grip, shorter stock, etc...

 

Next, regarding ammo.  I did some online research. I drew the conclusion that 00 Buck would be best.  However, I live in an apartment and settled on number 4 Buck to reduce over penetration. 

 

Unrelated to that, I read "Point Man" by James "Patches" Watson.  Most here will know of him, if not, he was a Seal in Vietnam during a time when they had missions about every other night.

 

I was a little surprised to learn that he carried a shotgun rather than a M16, Stoner or other machine gun.

 

I was really surprised to learn that he used #4 buckshot.  He didn't explain why he used #4 other than to say he used the shotgun with #4 because it immediately stopped the threat better than anything else he had access to.

 

It may be that #4 was his only choice or many other reasons.  

 

Ultimately, he came up with devices that attached to the end of the shotgun that offered different kinds of buckshot spread based on the need.  I doubt there would be need for such a device for home use.

 

Anyway, we'll hopefully have great conversation with this topic.

 

 

[DaveTN]

A shotgun is good home defense weapon. Sounds like your Mossberg has a 20” barrel. That’s fine as long as you can maneuver it.

Barrel length usually becomes an argument when people start talking about “clearing” your apartment or house. If you know someone is there you don’t go hunting; you let them come to you, through the fatal funnel. If you aren’t sure you run the risk of being taken out no matter what kind of weapon you have.

I would use 00 over #4. But everyone will have an opinion; they will both penetrate multiple sheets of drywall. Short of non-lethal or bird shot there isn’t anything you can put in a 12GA that won’t put your neighbors at risk if you shoot the wall. The same thing will happen if you miss with a handgun.

A dog will let you know if someone is in your house or apartment.

[enfield]

The pistol grip shotguns, at least in 12 gauge, are hard to control after the 1st shot.  I get followup shots off much quicker with a full stock.  #4 Buck is good, and I've read that #1 is better for penetration, but it's harder to find.

 

I'm only gonna clear the room I'm in.  The cops can do the rest.

[KKing]

The pistol grip shotguns, at least in 12 gauge, are hard to control after the 1st shot.

By that do you mean pistol grip only? Because in my experience, and with my pistol grip shotguns with collapsible stocks, the pistol grips handle 10 times better.

[enfield]

Pistol grip only.

[leroy]

Pete... I like Dave's post and reasoning... I'm a shotgun junkie and have a pile of pump "riot guns", includin a Browning BPS in the bedroom... There is a reason why shotguns were used in the old days and right up until today by those in the killin business... They work and work very well... If ya look at the shooting data, a shotgun trumps most everything in one shot stops if ya do your part... I like the "stayin put" idea... Let 'em come to you... That's exactly my home plan... I like buckshot of any flavor, from 000 to #4 buck...

 

leroy

[bigun]

The pistol grip shotguns, at least in 12 gauge, are hard to control after the 1st shot.  I get followup shots off much quicker with a full stock.  #4 Buck is good, and I've read that #1 is better for penetration, but it's harder to find.

 

I'm only gonna clear the room I'm in.  The cops can do the rest.

I use a remington 870 with a 18.5 barrel. and I agree I'm only going to clear the room I'm in. I live out in the country so I load 8 rounds of 00 buck. But it all depends on what you feel comfortable with.

[Pete123]

I really like the way you all mentioned staying in the bedroom and only worrying about your safety as I haven't thought about it that way.

 

I try to think in terms of how to avoid shooting someone.

 

A topic which doesn't seem to be discussed much, is what a justified shooter goes through after the shooting.  It's pretty easy to have to go bankrupt defending a justified shooting.  

 

Massad Ayoob says that about 10% of justified shooters wind up having the case, whether civil or criminal, go against them.  You just never know the biases, prejudices or intelligence of a jury.

 

Anyone who isn't training on how to deal with the police after a (hopefully) justified shooting is failing to train on one of the most important parts.

[seax]

In todays climate anyone that resists any assault is liable to get in a law suit. I don't trust the system or lawyers.

Saying that I have four SG around the house and four dogs. Now the kids are not very large. It is just the warning system I need with my bad hearing. They all stand less than knee height so I have a free fire zone of all vital areas. I like scatter guns for social work and have several different examples. By my bed is a Legacy sports O/U with 18" barrels and a lower pr. Gym bag gun is a Winchester md.12 because it takes down easy. Pistol grip shotguns are for movies and people who think they are cool, like those that shoot pistols sideways. The illusion of the length advantage is nullified by several disadvantages in the actual use of the gun. As to loads for the home I have no preference. The range that is covered still puts a mass of lead in a very small swarm. For outside confrontations Number 4 or 00 Buck or a Slug is the way to go.

[Bassoneer]

I tried the pistol grip...couldn't hit anything.  I like 00 Buckshot and I have a light on my shotgun.  But the pistol grip...no.

 

Best wishes, B

[runco]

20+ years ago, read an article either in American Rifleman or something similar that said most people when encountering a threat within the home, the adrenaline begins to flow, and a handgun is worthless outside of 3'.  The article suggested that a defense shotgun was best.  Ever since then I have had both quickly at my reach.  As far as 00 buck, #4, slugs, and etc, reason through it on your own.  As for me, I stagger 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug, etc. in the tube.

[Patrick Henry]

I have read the Mossburg safety if difficult to access with a pistol grip. 

[Pete123]

In todays climate anyone that resists any assault is liable to get in a law suit. I don't trust the system or lawyers.

 

*************************************************************
As to loads for the home I have no preference. The range that is covered still puts a mass of lead in a very small swarm. For outside confrontations Number 4 or 00 Buck or a Slug is the way to go.

 

Regarding your first point, I agree.  I prepare the best I can, defend myself if I have to, and hope for the best afterward.

 

Regarding your second point, I wouldn't want to get shot with bird shot.  Heck, I don't want to be shot with a pellet gun.

 

Thinking about bird shot made me think about the time Vice President Cheney shot another politician at a bird shoot.  

 

It's bad enough being shot by someone in dire need of firearms safety training.  (Note:  I said that very nicely in respect of the position of VP of the US)  It had to really suck when the guy who was sprayed had to be a good political soldier and publicly take responsibility - saying it was his fault that he was shot.   :usa:

[Oh Shoot]

....

 

Regarding your second point, I wouldn't want to get shot with bird shot.  ...

 

More importantly, I don't want to get shot by someone I just shot with bird shot.

 

- OS

[chances R]

IMO home defense is much different than military/police purposes. In many civilian uses shoot-thru is a major consideration which has to be balanced with effective stopping power. I contend that 450+ grains of lead is pretty effective at a reasonable inside the home distance of generally 10yds or less. I trust a load of #4 shot at that distance to stop most anything.

[Murgatroy]

 

A topic which doesn't seem to be discussed much, is what a justified shooter goes through after the shooting.  It's pretty easy to have to go bankrupt defending a justified shooting.  

 

 

It is my understanding that in Tennessee (and Kentucky as that is where I now reside) that if you are found to be justified in a clean shoot, you are immune from civil suit. Kentucky is also a state that in order to even be arrested and charged there must be probable cause that the shooter was not acting in self defense.

 

IMO it should be pretty easy in a state with Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground Laws to be found justified in a home invasion situation.

 

Tennessee (and Kentucky) is also among the few states that allow a defendant to be reimbursed for all fees if he successfully defends himself for a justified shooting in a civil suit.

 

[url=http://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/ky-503-085-justification-and-criminal-and-civil-immunity-for-use-of-permitted-force-exceptions/]Kentucky's Laws.[/url]

 

[url=http://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/tn-39-11-622-justification-for-use-of-force-exceptions-immunity-from-civil-liability/]Tennessee's Laws.[/url]

[Murgatroy]

Oh and to contribute to the original topic, we use a Rossi Overland 20" SxS Coach Gun for HD in my home, and have for two generations and 40 years.

[BigK]

I have read the Mossburg safety if difficult to access with a pistol grip.

I agree 100%. I also have a hard time reaching the slide release on a Mossberg with a pistol grip.

The beauty of a Mossberg with a stock is that safety, trigger and slide release are optimally located.

[chances R]

Keep in mind anyone can still bring a suit. Paragraph b notes restitution if the plaintiff loses. Remember you still will have to defend yourself and the scumbag you shot or his family, probably are not rich. My point is that you can't get blood from a turnip. Edited April 20, 2015 by chances R

[enfield]

IMO home defense is much different than military/police purposes. In many civilian uses shoot-thru is a major consideration which has to be balanced with effective stopping power. I contend that 450+ grains of lead is pretty effective at a reasonable inside the home distance of generally 10yds or less. I trust a load of #4 shot at that distance to stop most anything.

 

View some of the videos at The Box of Truth website and you might change your mind.

[chances R]

I have shot shotguns my entire life. Numerous car bodies and appliances when not shooting clays and game. I can assure you that sheet metal is tougher than skin. Big difference in standard birdshot loads vs turkey loads. I will always bet on them in home defense vs a handgun load especially when considering shoot thru penetration. I did go to the sight you referred. Good stuff for sure, but the same type of ineffective shootings can be found with any weapon or caliber. Edited April 20, 2015 by chances R

[Fallguy]

It is my understanding that in Tennessee (and Kentucky as that is where I now reside) that if you are found to be justified in a clean shoot, you are immune from civil suit. Kentucky is also a state that in order to even be arrested and charged there must be probable cause that the shooter was not acting in self defense.

 

IMO it should be pretty easy in a state with Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground Laws to be found justified in a home invasion situation.

 

Tennessee (and Kentucky) is also among the few states that allow a defendant to be reimbursed for all fees if he successfully defends himself for a justified shooting in a civil suit.

 

Kentucky's Laws.

 

Tennessee's Laws.

 

 

Keep in mind anyone can still bring a suit. Paragraph b notes restitution if the plaintiff loses. Remember you still will have to defend yourself and the scumbag you shot or his family, probably are not rich. My point is that you can't get blood from a turnip.

 

Not to get more OT, but just to note you are NOT immune from any injury to innocent 3rd party or any property damage they may have.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Fallguy

[Caster]

I won't argue a shotgun's effectiveness, but I will tell anyone who keeps one for HD, you should try find a safe environment to fire one inside a closed space.  If you're really feeling froggy, try it with nothing on your ears...such as it would be when something goes bump in the night.  I understand the variables will change with the fight or flight adrenaline dump you're gonna have when your family's life is on the line but two or three rounds of 12g in the house is gonna be ROUGH and no one can deny that.  

 

It doesn't take super godlike velocity to kill a man.  The reduced recoil loads made by Hornady TAP and others will MORE than suffice and in the process, give you better control, not to mention something left of your hearing after the fact.  

[chances R]

I won't argue a shotgun's effectiveness, but I will tell anyone who keeps one for HD, you should try find a safe environment to fire one inside a closed space.  If you're really feeling froggy, try it with nothing on your ears...such as it would be when something goes bump in the night.  I understand the variables will change with the fight or flight adrenaline dump you're gonna have when your family's life is on the line but two or three rounds of 12g in the house is gonna be ROUGH and no one can deny that.  
 
It doesn't take super godlike velocity to kill a man.  The reduced recoil loads made by Hornady TAP and others will MORE than suffice and in the process, give you better control, not to mention something left of your hearing after the fact.

Hope I never have to try that out.....with any gun for that matter. That is why I keep electronic muffs with my flashlight; plus gives me the tactical hearing advantage if there is time to put them on. If not, better deaf than dead.

[Caster]

THe electronic ear muffs are GOLD!  Mine will actually amplify sound if I crank them up but still block the shot noise.  Anyone would be a fool not to have a pair next to your HD weapon.  If you don't have time to get them on, ohh well, but the option should be there.  It's not like you'll ever regret it.