Straw Purchasers

[A.J. Holst]

This is the element which has a huge impact on the rights of law abiding citizens.

They make it easier for criminals to obtain legally purchased firearms.

The fee income obviously offsets the risk of federal charges, legal cost and the risk of doing business with criminals who are violent since they are acquiring firearms as their work tools. Interesting business model, I'll pass...

Now add in the face to face transaction with a seller who doesn't care who they sell to as long as they have valid ID. Trolling around outside the guns shows, facebook/armslist and swap meets trying to make a quick buck.


I don't have a solution. Making it harder for everyone to legally purchase doesn't change anything, it can't affect face to face, it certainly won't decrease the number of guns stolen by criminals and it will not have an impact of sales other than increasing cost and taking longer to actually take possession of your new firearm.

FWIW, I try to ensure I don't contribute to the problem and only buy and sell ftf with folks who are well known to me either directly or through a friend.

[jtmaze]

I am the same way. It takes me months to purchase a firearm of any kind(usually new) due to the fact that I know that I am not willing to sell the gun after I have purchased it. I have sold guns to family members in the past with the stipulation that if they get in need and have to sell I will buy it back. There are too many guns in the hands of people that shouldn't have them because people aren't careful who they resell to. Not that I don't trust anyone to make the right decision, I just couldn't live with myself if a gun I put on the street where used to harm someone. I know it sounds anal, but that is how it is. To me guns are family heirlooms and I know my daughters will treat them with the respect and responsibility that I always have. Gun ownership is the true test of a persons character. Be safe even after ownership.


JTM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ugly]

Do we really think straw purchases occur frequently?

I figured it was as often as a legal gun owner commits a crime. I have heard of one actual straw purchase in my 40+ years. It was a female sailor who bought one for her boyfriend who turned out to be a slime ball. She did time for it too.

[Metalhead]

Do we really think straw purchases occur frequently?

I figured it was as often as a legal gun owner commits a crime. I have heard of one actual straw purchase in my 40+ years. It was a female sailor who bought one for her boyfriend who turned out to be a slime ball. She did time for it too.

 

All the time. As in, we have people attempt it at least once or twice a week at least.

[Trekbike]

All the time. As in, we have people attempt it at least once or twice a week at least.

I'm assuming most of the time the two parties are together, correct? Otherwise how would you know if only the purchaser came in alone?

Or can you tell it when the type of gun they are buying doesn't "fit" their demeanor?

[hipower]

I used to hang out at a shop owned by "He who must not be named." LOL

 

It happened rather frequently. Especially in the area Bill dealt with. Always some mother, sister, or brother coming in with them to get something and would have the strangest stories about why they needed this particular gun.

Edited April 18, 2015 by hipower

[DaveTN]

A Straw Purchase is a criminal offense. It is as hard to stop as any other crime. But it is usually harder to prove until another crime has been committed.

If criminals want guns; they will get them. They will walk up and take them or they will wait until you are not home and they will kick your door in and take them.

I’m not against background checks I just don’t think they stop criminals from getting guns. They are more about politicians saying “At least we are doing something”, and putting cash in gun dealers and the state pockets.

[Tobashadow]

I got accused of trying to have someone do a straw purchase for me last year.

I was at a gunshop with my step son who had just turned 21 (kinda hard to say step since I've raised him since age 2) and was helping him pick out a lower for his first AR build and I was being real picky looking them over and the guy cued in and started getting nervous.

I solved that when I said he wants that one and I want this one ring us up lol.

[teecro]

I got accused of trying to have someone do a straw purchase for me last year.

I was at a gunshop with my step son who had just turned 21 (kinda hard to say step since I've raised him since age 2) and was helping him pick out a lower for his first AR build and I was being real picky looking them over and the guy cued in and started getting nervous.

I solved that when I said he wants that one and I want this one ring us up lol.

 

Keep in mind that purchases for family members and truthfully anyone as long as it is being "GIFTED" is completely legal and is not a straw purchase.... Many sellers seem to fail to realize this and try to put the brakes on an otherwise 100 percent legal action...

[Murgatroy]

I have bought my mother and wife both guns. Both times they were with me at the store. Both times I plainly asked the clerk "Who does the 4473? I am buying this for her." Both times, different stores, the clerk told me "You are paying, you are doing the 4473. You are gifting the gun."

 

My understanding on what makes a Straw Purchase is if you are buying the gun with the knowledge that the other person is otherwise legally prevented from purchasing the gun themselves, and obviously you are using their money.

 

This is also clearly explained on the 4473 if you read the definition of Question 11.a. "However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a."

Edited April 18, 2015 by Murgatroy

[wileecoyote]

I have more than 30 years experience dealing with guns as well as ample retail management and loss prevention experience. I have spent literally hundreds if not thousands of hours at gun shows, gun stores, and pawn shops. I have also assisted several FFLs with their businesses and worked for them on numerous occasions. In all this time I have never once witnessed a straw sale or an attempt at such, and I have only met one private seller that seemed a little shaky with a deal that was too good to be true, so I declined to purchase that gun although I had no proof of anything being wrong.

 

My view is that it is FAR more common for customers to be shopping with relatives or friends, and commenting on the products or giving each other advice, and possibly loaning each other money or buying each other gifts. And that it is quite rare for criminals to attempt straw sales in most FFL shops, except possibly for those located in or near high crime areas with a low median income population. I can't tell you how many times I have personally gone to a gun store with a friend or family member to help them pick something out, often checking the guns, features, and prices and then giving them advice, with them making the purchase in the end. This might have appeared to be a straw sale to some observers but it was nothing illegal, just normal adult behavior. The same happens for other retail goods including electronics, jewelry, cars, etc. and we don't think anything of it.

 

I think the true straw sale attempts (those done by criminals with criminal intent) are much more obvious, and any responsible FFL would and should decline such transactions, but even then the rejected buyers are most likely to just go to another shop and repeat the purchase in a different manner so as not to be accused or detected. If you look at most of the actual crime studies and reports that have been done over the years, you will see that most crimes are committed with guns that were stolen or illegally obtained via other means, and that true "straw sales" are a very small percentage of the problem.

 

So I agree that the background checks and many restrictive firearms laws are not really protecting us from anything or doing any real good, other than to give the average citizen (who is most often totally ignorant of gun features, issues, crime stats, and laws) a false sense of security. Many of the current BATFE / GCA laws and restrictions did not exist prior to 1968, and yet the world was not a criminal hell on earth, and there was not a blood bath in the streets on a daily basis, and crime was not significantly impacted either way before or since. I also believe that most people are inherently honest, law abiding citizens with good intent, and that they wouldn't deliberately or knowingly provide a criminal with a firearm or other weapon regardless of the legality of doing so, so I wish we could just repeal all gun laws and restrictions. This would ultimately lower the price and increase the availability of firearms for the masses, who are mostly good folk, so the net benefit would by definition be mostly good.

[Tobashadow]

Keep in mind that purchases for family members and truthfully anyone as long as it is being "GIFTED" is completely legal and is not a straw purchase.... Many sellers seem to fail to realize this and try to put the brakes on an otherwise 100 percent legal action...

Oh I knew it was legal but it was for him using his own money and I decided to do father/son builds while we was looking.

His



Mine



We finished them in January and was a good experience for the both of us. He bought and built 90% of the parts himself. Me and his mother surprised him with the magpul furniture. He's got a few learning disabilities but I wouldn't trade him for another and the efforts of studying on how to build it piece by piece was good for him.

[Tobashadow]

I even made him fill out the 4473 on his own so he could experience it and there would be no question that it was his.

I did have to print six copies out at home and make him do it in pen so there was no going back, the night before till he got it right. He had to read every question which is not his strong point and figure out the answer. Only issue he had was writing the wrong info down on the address or name fields.

I did the same with my wifes carry pistol, handed her the debit card and said get at it. That way no one can't say it's not hers. Edited April 18, 2015 by Tobashadow

[monkeylizard]

 

My understanding on what makes a Straw Purchase is if you are buying the gun with the knowledge that the other person is otherwise legally prevented from purchasing the gun themselves, and obviously you are using their money.

 

Whether or not the final recipient is legally prevented from ownership or not is irrelevant. If you're filling out a 4473 and the gun is either not for you or not intended as a gift (i.e. no money, goods, or services changing hands) then it's a straw purchase.

[Oh Shoot]

Whether or not the final recipient is legally prevented from ownership or not is irrelevant. If you're filling out a 4473 and the gun is either not for you or not intended as a gift (i.e. no money, goods, or services changing hands) then it's a straw purchase.

 

Well, as long as it's "for you" at the moment.  Meaning, it's quite legal to buy a firearm with 4473 you already know you are going to resell to someone else immediately, as long as you are not "in the business" of doing so.  (Assuming you have no reason to believe buyer is prohibited, resident of different state, all that stuff.)

 

The difference is simply whether you're doing it "for the principal objective of livelihood and profit” as opposed to other intents, such as "improving a personal firearms collection".

 

So if for some reason you see a real steal on something, and know you can turn a quick profit, perfectly legal under federal definitions to grab a couple or three and sell them an hour later,  if the profit goes toward some other firearm you want,  as opposed to in your pocket to pay the rent, for example. That is neither a straw purchase, nor being engaged in the business of selling firearms without a license.

 

If you do a lot of that, probably best to keep good records as to where the bucks went though I guess. For the IRS if nothing else. ;)

 

- OS

Edited April 18, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[monkeylizard]

If the resale has already been worked out, I think it's treading dangerously close to a field of straw.

 

Let's say that you've mentioned to me that you'd love to have gun X, but can't seem to find it anywhere for a good price. You say that you'd gladly pay $Y for that gun and tell me that if I ever find one at or below that price to go ahead and buy it and you'll buy it off me. I happen to come across it for less than or equal to $Y and buy it, fully intending to sell it to you. The only difference between that and a true straw purchase is that you're giving me the money after I buy it, not before. The deal was already worked out beforehand. That, to me, is masking the actual owner and would be a straw purchase. Sure, no money has changed hands yet, so it's not the very definition of a straw purchase, but it sure is close, and not a subtlety I'd want to hang a defense upon.

Edited April 18, 2015 by monkeylizard

[bersaguy]

In part of the post made by wileecoyote, he said "Many of the current BATFE / GCA laws and restrictions did not exist prior to 1968, and yet the world was not a criminal hell on earth, and there was not a blood bath in the streets on a daily basis, and crime was not significantly impacted either way before or since." 

 

I have a little different view on this issue. I think since the new laws have been put into effect crime in big cities has definitely increased over the years. Back before the laws went into effect firearms were more readily available to most everyone and those laws changed that. By doing so it created a different atmosphere causing many people to become unsure about how much longer the right to purchase guns would remain. That in turn started people purchasing firearms more readily before the laws got so that many of them would not be able to buy them. I would not call it panic buying but close. Many of those guns bought back years ago are showing up now in crimes in big cities. Yes there is a straw buyer problem to some extent but I think many of the guns like being used in Chicago came from purchases made before back ground checks went into full operation. I bought my first hand gun at age 12 from a licensed FFL gun store in my home town in Illinois and it was not an illegal purchase. It was a Colt Single action 6 22 lr.....................................jmho  

Edited April 18, 2015 by bersaguy

[Oh Shoot]

If the resale has already been worked out, I think it's treading dangerously close to a field of straw.

 

Let's say that you've mentioned to me that you'd love to have gun X, but can't seem to find it anywhere for a good price. You say that you'd gladly pay $Y for that gun and tell me that if I ever find one at or below that price to go ahead and buy it and you'll buy it off me. I happen to come across it for less than or equal to $Y and buy it, fully intending to sell it to you. The only difference between that and a true straw purchase is that you're giving me the money after I buy it, not before. The deal was already worked out beforehand. That, to me, is masking the actual owner and would be a straw purchase. Sure, no money has changed hands yet, so it's not the very definition of a straw purchase, but it sure is close, and not a subtlety I'd want to hang a defense upon.

 

Point taken, though yeah,  the point is a hmm, well, maybe, sorta, possibly.

 

So far, only case law is the Abramski one that went to SCOTUS, and it did indeed hinge on fact that the guy's uncle gave him the money for it upfront.

 

- OS

[Worriedman]

My problem is I buy guns, but never sell them...is there a law against that outside of SWMBO's rulings?

[10-Ring]

My problem is I buy guns, but never sell them...is there a law against that outside of SWMBO's rulings?

Not yet :-\