Giving the PoPo the bird

[btq96r]

Hmmm. This is starting to sound like one of the cop bashing threads of old.

Cops are representives of government, and deserve the same scrutiny we give to any other government agency. Possibly more so when you consider the powers and responsibilities they have. When they are out of line- as the officers actions and the equipment in this situation were- they deserve the reaction they get from the public. Edited April 15, 2015 by btq96r

[tnguy]

I saw someone make a good point the other day that if the police want to be militarized, they should fall under the ucmj. That would soon put them straight.

[JAB]

I saw someone make a good point the other day that if the police want to be militarized, they should fall under the ucmj. That would soon put them straight.

 

Better and more to the point, IMO, someone should realize that there is a reason for posse comitatus and see that the militarization of our civilian police forces is, at least in part, an attempt to do an 'end run' around the limitations and protections it provides to the general public.  To me, a militarized police force violates the spirit of posse comitatus if not the letter.  In other words, I believe that a militarized police force should be forbidden by law as an extention of  posse comitatus.  When you have a force that is A ) largely militarized in structure, training, mindset and policies - making them a de facto military organization - which is B ) (at least in part) controlled by the Federal Government through funding, grants, equipment 'donations' and the like. as well as the Federal requirements a department must meet in order to qualify for these Federal programs, if nothing else then posse comitatus should prohibit such a force from being deployed to enforce law and order in a civilian setting.

 

As far as 'no knock warrants', legalization of blanket surveillance without a specific warrant, 'probable cause' searches of homes and the like, remember that one of the major grievances that led our forefathers to rebel against their then legal government were so-called 'writs of assistance' and other, 'general' warrants. These writs and warrants allowed the then equivalent of customs agents to search any homes, etc. that they pleased without needing to specify what properties were to be searched or what evidence was being gathered.

 

So, forgetting all the other Constitutional violations in which our government indulges, these 'police powers' violations, alone - violation of the spirit of posse comitatus as well as specific and above-board search warrant requirements - would have our forefathers spinning in their graves.  Yet in this day and age we are so conditioned to 'respect those in positions of authority' that if they spoke out against such violations we would probably accuse ol' George and Thomas of 'cop bashing.'

Edited April 16, 2015 by JAB

[tnguy]

I'm totally with you. The problem is, as you know, it's already here.

 

States should be erecting partitions between the federal government and their police forces also.

Edited April 16, 2015 by tnguy

[TNWNGR]

FWIW I had a lot of people flip me the bird during my police career...every one of them did so when I was directing traffic, conducting a vehicle stop, working an auto crash or they thought I wasn't watching. that pretty much put told to the caliber of person(s) flipping me off. if you want to be that guy and flip off a police officer then that's on you but I'm going to point something out to you. Does doing so make you a better person? I've arrested people for disorderly conduct and everyone was convicted in a court of law...none of them were for flipping me the bird and every, repeat every one of them were warned to cease and desists or be arrested. As a judge pointed out to one of them "son you were warned if you did a he was going to do b...you didn't listen to him and now your here for me to do c...

[LagerHead]

FWIW I had a lot of people flip me the bird during my police career...every one of them did so when I was directing traffic, conducting a vehicle stop, working an auto crash or they thought I wasn't watching. that pretty much put told to the caliber of person(s) flipping me off. if you want to be that guy and flip off a police officer then that's on you but I'm going to point something out to you. Does doing so make you a better person? I've arrested people for disorderly conduct and everyone was convicted in a court of law...none of them were for flipping me the bird and every, repeat every one of them were warned to cease and desists or be arrested. As a judge pointed out to one of them "son you were warned if you did a he was going to do b...you didn't listen to him and now your here for me to do c...

 

I don't think anybody is making the argument that flipping off a cop, or any person for that matter, makes you a better person, puts you in the right, etc. I think the point being made is that simply flipping someone the bird is no reason for an arrest. Period. This is not a criticism police in general, because I find it hard to believe that the average cop would even acknowledge such nonsense. If a cop, however, gets flipped the bird and flips out about it, it says a whole lot about the individual. The individual. Not all cops. Not most cops. Not cops in general. Just that one guy with an ego so fragile that some random stranger flipping him the bird puts him into criminal crushing mode. 

[Major Kong]

"Officer Friendly" has turned into "Officer Kick Your Door Down and Search Your House Just Because". Anti-cop sentiment isn't growing just because of cop shootings, it's a real problem based on real infringements.

 

The frustrating thing to me is that every cop I know on an individual level is a good guy. Where is the douchebaggery? Do I just randomly know a half-dozen good cops and the rest are assholes?

[DaveTN]

"Officer Friendly" has turned into "Officer Kick Your Door Down and Search Your House Just Because". Anti-cop sentiment isn't growing just because of cop shootings, it's a real problem based on real infringements.
 
The frustrating thing to me is that every cop I know on an individual level is a good guy. Where is the douchebaggery? Do I just randomly know a half-dozen good cops and the rest are assholes?

For everyone one of your friends that are “good guys” there are people that think they are bad cops because their interaction didn’t go exactly the way they thought it should. Some people aren’t going to like anyone in a position of authority whether it is a cop, school teacher or supervisor at work.

Compare it to being part of the HCP or firearm enthusiast group. A very large group of people hate you. They don’t think you are qualified to carry a gun in public and they will jump on any action by any gun owner to use as an example to try to stop people from carrying or even own guns.

Look at the cross section of the people you know and work with. Most are good people but I’m sure you know some that you wonder how they find their way to work. You will find the same in a cross section of cops. I know and worked side by side with a lot of cops. Most good, some bad. Some were good cops that made a minor mistake, let a person with an agenda see that mistake and my god the world is coming to an end.

If you start searching for cops that do bad things; you won’t have any problem finding the stories (even if they are made up). If you start searching for gun owners that do bad things; you won’t have any problem finding the stories (even if they are made up).

The worse the cop sentiment gets; fewer good people will want to be cops and the problem will get worse.

Just like your statement "Officer Kick Your Door Down and Search Your House Just because". I doubt that has happened to you or anyone you know personally. I have never seen a cop kick a door without cause (yes, I’ve seen it on the internet; I’m talking real life) I have seen cops kick doors and forced entry on more than a few occasions myself. Every one of them was justified; but I’m pretty sure someone is under the mistaken impression I violated their rights.

I’m sure the changing laws also have a lot to do with it. When I started we were constantly being sent on “Family fights”. We were social workers and marriage counselors. We decided if there was truly a criminal situation or just a family issue that needed to be worked out. Then our discretion was taken away and if we went on a “Domestic Violence” call and anyone made any claims of threats or violence; hook them up and take them to jail.

Same thing with DUI. Years ago if a cop stopped you and you had been drinking he had discretion; arrest you, call someone to come and get you or call you a cab. That is not the case today. If you are stopped now and are drinking the options are; ask you to submit to a BAC test, if you pass, send you on your way, if you fail or refuse; arrest you.

I’m not saying Domestic violence or DUI isn’t a problem and those people shouldn’t be arrested. But the chances of those things being “borderline” and ending in anything other than an arrest are slim. And that is not the cops doings.

[peejman]

For everyone one of your friends that are “good guys” there are people that think they are bad cops because their interaction didn’t go exactly the way they thought it should. Some people aren’t going to like anyone in a position of authority whether it is a cop, school teacher or supervisor at work.

Compare it to being part of the HCP or firearm enthusiast group. A very large group of people hate you. They don’t think you are qualified to carry a gun in public and they will jump on any action by any gun owner to use as an example to try to stop people from carrying or even own guns.

Look at the cross section of the people you know and work with. Most are good people but I’m sure you know some that you wonder how they find their way to work. You will find the same in a cross section of cops. I know and worked side by side with a lot of cops. Most good, some bad. Some were good cops that made a minor mistake, let a person with an agenda see that mistake and my god the world is coming to an end.

If you start searching for cops that do bad things; you won’t have any problem finding the stories (even if they are made up). If you start searching for gun owners that do bad things; you won’t have any problem finding the stories (even if they are made up).

The worse the cop sentiment gets; fewer good people will want to be cops and the problem will get worse.

Just like your statement "Officer Kick Your Door Down and Search Your House Just because". I doubt that has happened to you or anyone you know personally. I have never seen a cop kick a door without cause (yes, I’ve seen it on the internet; I’m talking real life) I have seen cops kick doors and forced entry on more than a few occasions myself. Every one of them was justified; but I’m pretty sure someone is under the mistaken impression I violated their rights.

I’m sure the changing laws also have a lot to do with it. When I started we were constantly being sent on “Family fights”. We were social workers and marriage counselors. We decided if there was truly a criminal situation or just a family issue that needed to be worked out. Then our discretion was taken away and if we went on a “Domestic Violence” call and anyone made any claims of threats or violence; hook them up and take them to jail.

Same thing with DUI. Years ago if a cop stopped you and you had been drinking he had discretion; arrest you, call someone to come and get you or call you a cab. That is not the case today. If you are stopped now and are drinking the options are; ask you to submit to a BAC test, if you pass, send you on your way, if you fail or refuse; arrest you.

I’m not saying Domestic violence or DUI isn’t a problem and those people shouldn’t be arrested. But the chances of those things being “borderline” and ending in anything other than an arrest are slim. And that is not the cops doings.

 

 

Excellent perspective here.  Thanks.

[E4 No More]

The difference here, however, is that law enforcement goes through a far greater screening process than civilian employment. I have never had a civilian employer administer a psychological test let alone have me undergo a psychological screening performed by a psychologist. This is why I think it's not valid to compare the frequency of dipsticks in the civilian world to law enforcement.

[JAB]

The difference here, however, is that law enforcement goes through a far greater screening process than civilian employment. I have never had a civilian employer administer a psychological test let alone have me undergo a psychological screening performed by a psychologist. This is why I think it's not valid to compare the frequency of dipsticks in the civilian world to law enforcement.

 

Ideally this might be the case.  Keep in mind, however, that things don't always work the way they are supposed to.  Remember a few years back when the TBI was asked to do an investigation/audit of the THP and found that more than one officer had something on his record that should have absolutely, positively made him ineligible for imployment with the THP - yet those individuals actually were and had been employed as THP officers while other THP employees had outstanding criminal and traffic violations that had, apparently, not been properly addressed?

 

http://archive.tennessean.com/article/20051210/NEWS0201/71109077/THP-Housecleaning-Sweeps-Out-2-More

 

Also, keep in mind that while there might be more 'dipsticks' in the general public than in a cross section of police officers (and I am not sure I completely buy that - a person can be a bully or a jerk without having issues that would cause them to fail a psychological screening) the dipsticks in the general population don't wear a uniform and badge that give them police powers and make a court more likely to take their word over that on a non-police officer.  Those general public dipsticks also don't have protections in place to help shield them from at least some of the fallout of making grievous errors in judgement or action while in the line of duty.  Finally, some dipstick working the drive-through at the local scarf and puke likely isn't going to stand out as much as the one in uniform so that, while the ratio of dipsticks might be fewer the damage those, few dipsticks can do - both to the general public and to the reputation of his/her department and to public perception of police officers as a whole - is greater

 

Now, I will say that my very limited interactions with THP officers have been mostly positive.  In fact, most of my very limited, direct interactions with police officers, in general, have been mostly positive or at least neutral.  There are actually a couple of officers who I have known since high school with whom I like to talk guns, ammo choice and so on.  However, there is one department in this region with which nearly all of my interactions have been negative - and we aren't talking about being stopped or questioned as part of an investigation but, instead, simply smiling and saying, "Hello," when walking past them in a store, etc. and getting a look in return like I was something that the deputy - yeah, I am talking about a certain Sheriff's office - just scraped off of his shoe.  Also, this wasn't just one deputy who might have been having a bad day but happened invariably every, single time I tried to speak in a friendly, respectful manner to one of them back during the decade or so that I lived in the County in question.  Of course I have gotten the impression that even other police officers in different departments in the region think those guys are mostly jerks.

Edited April 20, 2015 by JAB

[DaveTN]

Now, I will say that my very limited interactions with THP officers have been mostly positive.

Driving around on the back roads will make anyone want to have someone to talk to.
 

Also, this wasn't just one deputy who might have been having a bad day but happened invariably every, single time I tried to speak in a friendly, respectful manner to one of them back during the decade or so that I lived in the County in question. Of course I have gotten the impression that even other police officers in different departments in the region think those guys are mostly jerks.

Do you think it’s something in the water in that County? Or do you think they have training classes to be jerks.

Is it you, or do they act that way to everyone?

[TGO David]

You know... when I saw this thread start, I figured it was going to go this way but I also thought "We always close these things down pretty quickly so do we really know that it's always going to go into the toilet or are we just making assumptions?"

 

So I decided to let it run.  And guess what:  We ended up right where I figured we were going to end up.

 

 

Blah blah blah Cops are assholes.

 

Blah blah blah Cops are power hungry jack-booted thugs.

 

Blah blah blah Cops don't need assault rifles and armored cars and body armor or any of that other stuff we all think is cool and want to own ourselves.

 

 

And now I remember why we lock these threads down.  We do it because like one guy said, most of us who know a cop or cops know some really nice guys.  We do it because we realize that yeah, a few dicks can spoil the reputation of an entire profession.  We do it because we've got members on this forum who are cops and are  (a.) good people and (b.) our friends and (c.) fellow gun owners and (d.) valuable sources of insight and professional perspective and just allowing people to freely malign their profession seems a bit egregious.

 

But hey... a good ole' cop lynching thread (make no mistake, that's what we're doing here) can go on for days and pages because deep down inside we're all probably a little pissed off still about that one time when that cop wrote us a ticket or didn't stroke our fur the right way on the side of the road, and dammit they just deserve it.  Because eff them!

 

Right? 

 

Yeah, I'm right.

 

So I'm closing this down but not before I answer the original question about giving the cops the finger with my favorite quote from a really cheesy movie.  SURE, you can give them the bird all day long, but it might cost ya because that guy behind the badge sometimes has had just enough of everyone else's #### that day to not give you a pass when you decide to be an immature dick and flip them off.

 

 

 

 

 

This thread sucks!  Lockin' it down.

[TGO David]

Oh and to all of our members who are cops or were cops... I'm sorry.   I'm sorry for letting this thread go as long as I did and for the fact that you put up with the crap you do on the job, only to come to TGO and put up with it here.

 

We won't let that happen again.  Ya'll may be a bunch of donut bandits, but some of us are glad you are here.