223 reloading- my load and where to go from here (where to stop)

[superduty]

So I've been working up my handloads in .223 Rem, and have reached a point where I'm not sure what I'd gain if I continue.  Maybe some of you folks can lend some thoughts.

 

First of all, my main reason for starting to handload is to a) have a fun new hobby, and b) make me less reliant on what ammo any area retailers or online vendors happen to have in stock (or not).

If it saves me any cash in the long run, great. If not, then reasons a and b above still apply.  I do not pretend to be a sniper, and getting a tiny MOA of accuracy at 600 meters is not of any concern to me.

 

So, my working up of my load is mainly to just have more ammo available, and if I can make it more accurate, consistent, etc. that what factory ammo is, then so much the better.

 

As I have worked up my current load, I also chronographed 3 different brands of factory ammo as a point of reference.

 

Remington UMC 55gr 223 =          Avg. velocity = 2807 fps

Fed/American Eagle 55 gr 223 =   Avg. Velocity = 2740 fps

PMC 55 gr 223= Avg. Velocity =    Avg. Velocity = 2716 fps

 

All this is through my 'test' AR, 1x9 twist, carbine length barrel. 

 

The load I've worked up to is 26.2gr  CFE223, Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT bullets, and Wolf Small Rifle Primers ( I also have CCI 400 primers, and find that my velocity decreases with those, FWIW).

As of yesterday. that combo gives me an avg velocity of 2767fps, which is just slightly faster than the Federal/American Eagle.   This charge weight, according to the Hornady manual, puts me about 2/3 the way up the scale before the max charge/danger zone.

 

According to the Hornady manual, I still have 1/2 to 1 grain more leeway to load if I care to, but everything is working well and I'm basically right in the middle of factory ammo velocities as is-

 

I know that one should load for accuracy and not velocity-  but accuracy has as much to do with me as shooter as my load, without the means to mount my rifle to something to keep it motionless while I fire off groups of different charge weights...but anyway-   I'm also developing the load to work reliably across different rifles, with different twist rates and barrel lengths- not just the one I'm using for load development and testing.

 

So, short of testing my load in any different rifle I may use it in and making sure they all function and cycle properly, is there any reason for me to continue working my charge weights up the scale?  Heck, theoretically, I could decrease my load to mimick the PMC load- it runs fine in all my rifles-

 

 

I have also been confused about published .223 velocities of, say, 3100fps, and that's not what I'm seeing, but it may well just be that I'm using my rifle and not the one that manufacturers use to come up with that number-

 

A little long and rambling post, but thanks for any thoughts you may have-

Edited April 2, 2015 by superduty

[Clod Stomper]

If it were me, I'd stop where you are. You won't gain as much velocity as you will pressure. You'll save wear on your brass. And you won't use up your powder as quickly.

Those published velocities were most likely out of a 20" barrel. Yours are about right from a 16" barrel.

Also, I'd bet that the load will work in most rifles or carbines. Function has less to do with velocity than it does pressure at the gas port.

[Jonnin]

if it works, leave it alone.   Even a basic load is better than bottom shelf cheap factory ammo if you make a half stab at keeping it consistent (really just charge and seating depth and crimp all the same will go a long, long way).  If you need better, that is another story, but if it cycles and hits more or less where you aimed, and is doing what you want it to do, then just leave it alone.

[gregintenn]

It's up to you, but I'd say you're there based on your criteria.

 

My plinking load is a 55 grain FMJBT Hornady loaded with CCI #400 primers and a max dose of IMR 4320. I figure there are better powders, but this one works great, fills the case up to the neck, is reasonable accurate, and provides 100% reliability in all my rifles. It is also widely available while other powders are hard to find at times.

 

I find a good crimp, while not necessary in my opinion, helps slightly with accuracy. It'll also lessen the chance of bullet setback, however, I've never had a problem with that while not crimping.

 

Accuracy loads are a whole 'nuther matter. :cool:

[Jct1911]

5.56 not .223 is 3100fps(yes I know the difference). Depending on the chamber and brass being used, you will most likely find that accuracy is best at the top of the .223 range data and maybe overlapping into 5.56 data. I always put it on paper first and work from there. Chrono is usually my last step working in .1grn steps to dial in. My most accurate loads are all over book max .223 data.

[superduty]

Thanks for the replies guys.  My thinking is pretty much in line with your suggestions-  I appreciate your responses.

[Caster]

If you're shooting at normal ranges under 300-400 yards, velocity is of little concern with a cartridge like the .223. Starting charges carry more than enough velocity to do what it's designed to do and do it well.
If you've found accuracy, there's no reason to waste powder and add wear to your gun for a few fps. It's nonsensical, the reasoning people put behind blistering velocity.

[jaysouth]

When reloading for range fun, I use the lowest charge that will reliably function the firearm and provide range fun accuracy.

 

If you are loading for hunting, the most accurate load at max loading levels for your .223.  But then again, maybe one should not hunt with a .223 if a 30-30 is handy.

 

As caster observed, the wear and tear on your brass, firearm, and wallet should be held to the minimum.

[Hidalgo]

We load extensively and hunt hogs with our rifles.  I load Benchmark / 60 VMax for everything.

 

A couple of things that I have found .......

 

Unless you've loaded up on the Wolf primers, drop them and go to CCI BR4 primers.  Way better consistency and a little tougher cup.

 

You likely will find your best accuracy somewhere below max published data.  Not always, but usually.

 

Like someone already said ...... loading a .223 for max velocity is wasting powder and stressing components.  No need.

 

We shoot hogs and kill them quickly with a load that runs roughly 2850.  We shoot them in the ear at ranges from 50 to 200 yards.  Accuracy is of extreme importance to us ... velocity not so much.

 

Lastly, for pure shooting pleasure and economy (as well as accuracy!) find a load that isn't tipping the max.  You'll be far better off in the long run.

[Guest livefreeordie1]

I started all three of my sons on whitetails with .223 out of an AR.  65 grn Sierra Gameking puts them down as well as 30-30, with much less recoil.  My AR's have Wylde chambers so I generally load to 5.56 pressures.

[Hidalgo]

I started all three of my sons on whitetails with .223 out of an AR.  65 grn Sierra Gameking puts them down as well as 30-30, with much less recoil.  My AR's have Wylde chambers so I generally load to 5.56 pressures.

 

What, exactly, are "5.56 pressures"?    There could be a book written on the differences ... or lack of differences ... between the 2 cartridges.  Not to mention that NATO measures pressures at the throat and SAAMI measures them at the center line of the case.  But in reality, it's a moot point. 

 

Any load that is developed should be tailored and loaded for a specific rifle.  That is ..... a specific CHAMBER.  As chambers are reamed at the factory the reamer obviously wears over time.  When the reamer will no longer ream a chamber to SAAMI specifications it is discarded and a new one replaces it.  This results in various (although extremely small) chamber sizes in the same rifles from the same manufacturer as the reamers wear and are replaced.  Not all chambers are the same.

 

But, even though it's true that's not really the issue with "XXX Pressure" statements.

 

ANY time we build a load for a particular rifle we should start at a safe point and work up slowly until we find the accuracy node that we are looking for or until we start seeing obvious pressure signs.  A good recommendation is to start at a mid point in the published load data for that cartridge.  This accuracy node or pressure warning can occur at various powder charges in different rifle chambers.  Sure, some loaders use the same data as other loaders are are well satisfied with the results.  Most seasoned loaders will never use a load based upon something they read on the internet or something they were told.  They know that their rifle is a very individual chamber and loads need to be developed carefully for it in order to achieve the best accuracy, velocity, and safety.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Hidalgo

[Guest livefreeordie1]

5.56 pressures are based on the NATO spec of 62,350 psi, as opposed to the SAMMI spec of 55,000 psi for .223 Rem.  Being a mechanical engineer who designs custom machinery, I'm well versed on the tolerances involved in designing machined parts, and the concept of tool wear over time.  The dimensions of a particular chamber are either within the tolerance envelope or not.  The idea that two rifles, both with Wylde chambers cut within the allowable chamber tolerances, are subject to such variance that an additional .5 grain of powder can be safe in one gun and dangerous in another is ridiculous.  Several powder manufacturers specifically list loads for 5.56 vs. .223, so this isn't something I pulled out of thin air.  Some chambers may be more accurate than others with a given powder charge, but if the wear of a reamer is so critical to the pressure developed in the case then no one would be selling commercial ammunition, for fear that someone's rifle would blow up because that chamber was cut with a new reamer at the upper end of the tolerance range as opposed to a worn reamer at the low end of the tolerance range.  Reloading isn't rocket science by any means.

 

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_1-23-14.pdf

[Hidalgo]

I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.  I only stated the FACTS that loads need to be worked up carefully for each and every individual rifle.  That's basic reloading practice.

 

I can only assume that you have a test barrel in your possession since you "load to 5.56 pressures". 

 

Otherwise, how else are you accurately measuring these pressures in your chamber? 

 

Unless you have a test barrel, you're simply guessing at the pressure load.  And to make a safe guess, you have to start at a certain point with your loads and work up slowly.  Right?  My point is that it makes no difference what chamber you have, you still must work up a load slowly and methodically until you find a safe load that suits your needs.

 

And being a mechanical engineer has nothing to do with knowing how to reload.  Same as my profession has no bearing.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Hidalgo

[Guest livefreeordie1]

Take a look at the load data table from Accurate that I linked to above.  They list loads for 5.56 separately from .223 Remington, that's how I know I'm loading to 5.56 pressures, they're in the business of compiling this empirical data and they have the equipment to do so.  I disagree that loads have to be worked up for a particular rifle to be safe.  You can buy Lake City 5.56 which is loaded to the top of the NATO pressure spec, and you can shoot it safely in any rifle with a 5.56 or Wylde chamber.  Lake City doesn't have an assortment of rounds with varying powder charges where you're supposed to buy the weaker and work up to ensure the loads are safe in your particular rifle.  They know that their rounds are put together right and will function safely in any rifle with the proper chamber.  The reason that the powder companies have start and max charges is to protect the reloader from errors he doesn't know he is making.  His powder scale may be out of calibration and he's loading 22 grains when he thinks he's loading 20.  His calipers may be out of calibration and he's seating the bullets .04" deeper than he thinks he is.  Maybe he's using old Vernier calipers and doesn't know how to read them correctly.  He might not be able to find published information for a specific bullet/powder combo and is borrowing from something close but not exact, etc., etc.  I agree that you should start out low and work up, but not for the reason you're claiming.

[Hidalgo]

Take a look at the load data table from Accurate that I linked to above.  They list loads for 5.56 separately from .223 Remington, that's how I know I'm loading to 5.56 pressures

 

Once again ....... unless you have a test barrel, you don't know EXACTLY what pressures you are getting IN YOUR RIFLE.  The pressures that they publish are in THEIR TEST BARREL. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

I disagree that loads have to be worked up for a particular rifle to be safe.  You can buy Lake City 5.56 which is loaded to the top of the NATO pressure spec, and you can shoot it safely in any rifle with a 5.56 or Wylde chamber.  Lake City doesn't have an assortment of rounds with varying powder charges where you're supposed to buy the weaker and work up to ensure the loads are safe in your particular rifle.  They know that their rounds are put together right and will function safely in any rifle with the proper chamber. 

 

LOL ... you're talking about FACTORY ammunition that has been tested to be safe in any rifle in good repair.  Any and all factory ammunition fits into that category.  I've never disputed that fact, and have no idea what it has to do with your statement about your reloads?

 

The reason that the powder companies have start and max charges is to protect the reloader from errors he doesn't know he is making.  His powder scale may be out of calibration and he's loading 22 grains when he thinks he's loading 20.  His calipers may be out of calibration and he's seating the bullets .04" deeper than he thinks he is.  Maybe he's using old Vernier calipers and doesn't know how to read them correctly.  He might not be able to find published information for a specific bullet/powder combo and is borrowing from something close but not exact, etc., etc.  I agree that you should start out low and work up, but not for the reason you're claiming.

 

NOPE.   I know personally some of the people at Speer that did a lot of test loads for one of their reloading manuals and at no time did they "pad" the results as you are implying.  That would make the data totally useless because it is no longer data but rather a loose guideline.  If you take the time to actually read the reloading data you will see that the pressures are recorded, and the test barrel is listed.  These are not approximate pressures.  If they were foolish enough to list pressures that were inaccurate they would be opening themselves up to a pile of lawsuits.  That's why all manuals state to approach max listed loads with caution. 

 

And as for reloaders making mistakes like you listed, only an idiot would use reloading equipment that isn't verified as accurate.  Wow.

[Guest livefreeordie1]

LOL, like I said, it isn't rocket science, but you can try to complicate it all you wish.  Apparently being an engineer does make a difference, I'm done.

[Grunt81]

If you're shooting at normal ranges under 300-400 yards, velocity is of little concern with a cartridge like the .223. Starting charges carry more than enough velocity to do what it's designed to do and do it well.
If you've found accuracy, there's no reason to waste powder and add wear to your gun for a few fps. It's nonsensical, the reasoning people put behind blistering velocity.

I agree with Caster. If you're only shooting with 400 yards, whether iron sights or optics, and you're accomplishing what you want to accomplish, then just call it done.

 

By the way, it's well known on other forums that Hornady Load Data is definitely on the conservative side. You should get a Lyman or a Lee. They don't manufacture bullets or powder so you can trust them to not be biased or exagerate. Still, you should study manufacturer load data to paint a nice picture of what's realistic and what's not. For example, with a similar bullet, Hodgon's website shows a starting load of 26.0 grains with velocity of 3,133 fps. The max load with CFE223 is 27.8 grains which yields a velocity of 3,329 fps, granted, it's with a 24" barrel http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle.

 

I will say, that according to all my ballistics research, Hornady bullets tend to increase pressure before other manufacturers bullets do. For example, max lodad data for a 190 grain Hornady bullet will travel 7fps faster than a 200 grain Swift bullet, while only using a charge of 0.3 grains higher. Whereas, a 180 grain bullet will travel 37 fps faster than a Speer 180 grain using 0.1 grains more than the 190. All of this Hodgon's data using max charges of CFE223, although the pressures differ slightly. I've come to the conclusion that Hornady bullets, MAYBE because of the jacket alloy composition, raises pressures faster on the jacket alloy composition of other manufacturers, or maybe because the jacket's coefficient of friction MIGHT be higher. Thus, you will get less velocity for a given charge. All of this is speculation. I cannot prove any of this as fact, NOR do I avoid Hornady bullets. I just loaded some 208 Amax to test in .308 at 1,000 yards.

 

Just for ####s and giggles, if I was the OP, I would make 5-10 rounds each at 0.4 grain increments until you reach max, just to see what the velocity yields. Some people even find out their own "do not exceed" charge at a certain OAL, by making sure the primer has obvious flattening or piercing. Then they back off from that charge to suit their needs. It's not worth loosening a primer pocket prematurely, unless you plan on competing and have money to blow out Lapua brass regularly  :pleased:

 

Once again, if you're happy with your loads' performance out your rifle, I wouldn't change anything.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Grunt81

[Grunt81]

 I forgot to mention, I have 2 Nikon P223s on my 2 AR-15s. The 20" barreled Windham Weaponry VEX has a 4-12x40 w/BDC while the 16" SW MP 15 has a 3-9x40 s/BDC. 

 

Both of the scopes have a Bullet Drop Compensator which means there are either open circles or hash marks to compensate for bullet drop up to 600 yards. It clearly states on the scope that this BDC is designed for a 55 grain polymer-tipped bullet such as the Hornady V-max or Nosler Varmageddon. My preferred target bullet is 69 grain match HPBT while my prefferred plinking bullet up to 600 yards is the Xtreme 55grain FMJ w/cannelure.

 

If my Xtreme bullets are impacting low at the farther yard lines using the BDC, then I know it's time for me to up the charge until it does, just for me since I plink with .223 out to 600 yards. With CFE 223, I settled on 27.2 grains, with a light to medium crimp. The case mouth is right in the middle of the cannelure using the Lee FCD. This load, using PMC brass and Remington 7.5 SRP followed my BDC, out of the 20" barrel, all the way out to 600 yards. My wife was shooting the Smith and Wesson so I don't remember if it followed that scope's BDC. I don't remember what group size was the 5.56 chamber and 16" barrel, but it couldn't be more than 2.4" at 100 yards using a bipod and rear sandbag, 5-shot group. Once again, that's my wife's rifle so she shoots it more. 

[Luke E.]

I don't use CFE223 but I do use pull down 842 powder from David which according to him and most others is very close to CFE223. One day I'll pick up a pound and load up some identical loads with the exception being half with 842 and half with CFE223 to see how close they really are..
Anyways, I've gotten off into the weeds here, assuming that they are quite close I will say that I load pretty much use 24.6gr of 842 in any of my 55gr loads. A friend and I came up with this load after quite a bit of testing and when loading up in increments we pretty much always hit our best accuracy at this point and have more than acceptable and consistent velocity. I can't remember off the top of my head what the exact velocity was on the various rounds nor can I remember the exact SD and ES but it has consistently been a great load in pretty much any rifle that we've run it in. The highest powered optic I have on any of my AR's is a 4 power so with my eyes trying to shoot tiny 100yd groups is like pissin' in the wind but through a Rem 700 with a 12 power scope this load will consistently shoot sub mao groups and even with the low or no powered optics on my AR's I still get sub moa groups quite regularly and one of those has around 10,000 rounds down the pipe.. I guess my point is, I have never had my best accuracy at or near max data so like others have said, save yourself the waisted powder and wear on your brass and rifles. If the load you have does everything you ask of it in any rifle you have to run it through,,, play ball!!!