Need help keeping an eye out for something

[Luke E.]

My brother in law does pretty nice leather work but it's mostly been limited to wallets, sheaths, belts, etc... He would really like to get into making more holsters but the issue is that he's got to have the gun in hand, for obvious reasons, in order to make the holster. He'd like to start buying some of the blue plastic replicas of some of the more popular handgun models. Who would have guessed (not me) that those things are quite expensive, especially when you start talking about buying several. Anyways, if anyone happens to see used ones or a really good sale on new ones I'd greatly appreciate a heads up!

[10-Ring]

I knew a guy who was making Kydex holsters.  What he would do is make you one a a discounted price if you let him use your gun so that he could make a pattern.  I'm not positive that it is doable to make a leather holster off of a pattern without the gun.  Also may run into the legalities of holding a gun overnight in the course of a business.  Depending on how serious of a business he is looking to get into this may or may not work for him. 

 

Another option may be airsoft guns as many are exact replicas. 

[Grand Torino]

Will do. :up:

[mmirob]

Tell him unless it is a 1911 not to start stocking up on blue guns.  Let the big manufacturers do that.  Every year you would spend a ridiculous amount of money chasing new product.  Lots new shapes every year.  Most people who want custom understand that you may have to drop off your pistol.  When he gets on an 8 month wait list, he may wish to consider expanding his business.

[hipower]

Tell him unless it is a 1911 not to start stocking up on blue guns.  Let the big manufacturers do that.  Every year you would spend a ridiculous amount of money chasing new product.  Lots new shapes every year.  Most people who want custom understand that you may have to drop off your pistol.  When he gets on an 8 month wait list, he may wish to consider expanding his business.

Great advice!

[Luke E.]

I knew a guy who was making Kydex holsters. What he would do is make you one a a discounted price if you let him use your gun so that he could make a pattern. I'm not positive that it is doable to make a leather holster off of a pattern without the gun. Also may run into the legalities of holding a gun overnight in the course of a business. Depending on how serious of a business he is looking to get into this may or may not work for him.

Another option may be airsoft guns as many are exact replicas.

I don't think there are any legal issues since he wouldn't be holding NFA items not would he be disassembling or making any upgrades to the pistols so he would fall under "firearms manufacturing" like a Cerakote shop would. It would be legal for someone to loan him a legal firearm to shoot so loaning it to him to wrap wet leather around wouldn't be an issue as far as I know. You can make a pattern/mold but I'm pretty certain you couldn't with leather unles making a kydex mold to use to form leather around would work.

[Luke E.]

Tell him unless it is a 1911 not to start stocking up on blue guns. Let the big manufacturers do that. Every year you would spend a ridiculous amount of money chasing new product. Lots new shapes every year. Most people who want custom understand that you may have to drop off your pistol. When he gets on an 8 month wait list, he may wish to consider expanding his business.

He's not looking to offer everything without a wait but pistols like the 1911, M&P and XD have stayed pretty much the same for a pretty good while now. And add a couple of the more popular Glocks and that would probably round out the herd and then outside of that he'd probably still be looking at having to have the pistol dropped off.
I totally understand and agree with your post and I told him so much with exception of a few that I knew that didn't often change. Right now his problem is that he's living in NYC because of my sister's job so finding a loaner pistol up there isn't so easy as it is around here. The good news is that they will be moving to the Nashville/Murfreesboro area at Christmas time so that will help a lot. Ive told him that if he got into making some of the crossbreed style leather/kydex hybrids that he could probably offer a free one on here in exchange for using someone's gun to make a form/mold.

[EssOne]

I have a friend here in the Tri Cities making nice leather holsters and he has borrowed a number of pistols from friends to make patterns from. He also asks customers to leave the pistol with him for a day if he doesn't have a pattern for the gun they want to use. There's not a thing wrong with it unless he wants to rival Bianchi or Safariland, in which case it might get a bit impossible. But a small operator should have no problem doing this. All bets are off if your brother in law stays in New York. These comments are intended for a Tennessee operator only.

Edited March 27, 2015 by LMTFAN

[Luke E.]

I have a friend here in the Tri Cities making nice leather holsters and he has borrowed a number of pistols from friends to make patterns from. He also asks customers to leave the pistol with him for a day if he doesn't have a pattern for the gun they want to use. There's not a thing wrong with it unless he wants to rival Bianchi or Safariland, in which case it might get a bit impossible. But a small operator should have no problem doing this. All bets are off if your brother in law stays in New York. These comments are intended for a Tennessee operator only.

Exactly, finding pistols in the city is a rather daunting task since there are so few around.

[gregintenn]

I'd suggest watching ebay and the classified ads on leatherworker.net.

 

mmirob gave you some good advice. I use real guns for molding. If I don't have your particular gun, you'll need to leave it with me a few days. This has never caused me any problems.

 

In making custom holsters, a lot of the ones I make are for obscure guns for which there isn't a commercial holster available. That is really the niche for the hobbyist leatherworker.

 

Where else are you gonna get something like this? :shrug:

 

 

[URL=http://s612.photobucket.com/user/gregintenn/media/Holster%20Project/IMG_1392.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[URL=http://s612.photobucket.com/user/gregintenn/media/Holster%20Project/IMG_1713.jpg.html][/URL]

Edited March 27, 2015 by gregintenn

[monkeylizard]

 

Where else are you gonna get something like this? :shrug:

 

 

[gregintenn]

Don't dis the Luger, man! :cool:

[Smith]

Dolomite is correct about needing an FFL if the gun is left overnight for business purposes.

[Luke E.]

Coating has nothing to do with manufacturing. The ATF changed that opinion really quickly after it came out in their updates. There was a big uproar from FFLs when they were looking at having to purchase manufacturing licenses to refinish firearms and the ATF realized they had stepped out of bounds with that one.

 

Anything that requires a customer to leave a firearm overnight requires an FFL. And if he is accepting an form of compensation he is "in the business" and should have an FFL. Now they do allow "on the spot" corrections without an FFL but leaving a firearm overnight requires an FFL. There is a lot of gray area there as far as "in the business" and "on the spot" corrections but everything I have ever heard or read requires someone to have an FFL if they are taking in a customers gun and it stays overnight.

 

I have made quite a few holsters for friends but they ALWAYS take their gun with them when they leave. I use a vacuum sealer to mold the leather to the gun so it is a pretty quick process and the leather molds a lot better and looks better than boning the leather.

 

 

 When did they change that? Because for some reason they made the guy that I am talking about get set up with everything that a company like Spikes would have as far as the FFL/licensing. They mentioned that adding the coating changed the firearm (can't remember their exact wording) and also (I think this was the main thing) they asked if he disassemble the firearms to coat them. The agent brought him a list with different things that a firearms company might do and what each would classify him as and a run of the mill FFL like your LGS would have would not cut it. That has been a few years back now though. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I am pretty sure there are different levels of FFLs based on what you are going to do. An FFL to ONLY do transfers is different than an FFL that will be repairing, or painting, guns. But as far as needing to be a manufacturer to paint a gun that is not so.

 

I do specifically remember that because at the time there were a lot of FFLs that go really pissed. The reason was because in the same industry letter that stated you needed a manufacturers license to apply paint they also specifically stated that a manufacturer's license was needed to add or change the sights of a firearm, including adding irons to ARs. There was an uproar from within the community and within a month there was another industry letter, which is unheard of, revising what was said in the previous letter.

 

I will see if I can find the revision for you. What has likely happened is the agent read the letter that said people needed manufacturer's licenses and it stuck in his brain or he never read the update. Agents are wrong all the time. Had a manufacturer tell me, when I was getting me lower engraved, that the ATF required him to engrave "short barrel rifle" on any registered lower. I told him he was wrong and I had to go somewhere else to prevent it but he was adamant the agents told him he had to.

[Luke E.]

First off, I don't want you to think I was saying that you didn't know what you were talking about, hell, you know FAR more about ATF related issues than I do. I was just curious as to why he was told that.
Well, he's making good on having the manufacturing license because he's decided that since he has it he'll build some "custom" rifles to sell. It also didn't sound like it was all that much harder to get the mfg FFL than it would be to get a standard FFL. Of course he'd never gotten a standard FFL so I'm not sure what he's comparing it to.

[Oh Shoot]

I am pretty sure there are different levels of FFLs based on what you are going to do. An FFL to ONLY do transfers is different than an FFL that will be repairing, or painting, guns. ,,

 

I dunno about the painting as regards manufacture,  but to sell/transfer guns or to do gunsmithing is the same FFL, Type 1. I don't know if you need two of them to be able to do both? (but I don't think so?)

 

- OS

Edited April 1, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Luke E.]

I dunno about the painting as regards manufacture, but to sell/transfer guns or to do gunsmithing is the same FFL, Type 1. I don't know if you need two of them to be able to do both? (but I don't think so?)

- OS

I'm not sure, I was by his place today and meant to ask again but I forgot about it.

[jdd65]

For the OP - for what a few blue guns cost, your friend could invest in a 3-D printer.  As customers request different makes and models, he could print it as needed and his collection of models would grow.  He could also do very obscure makes as well.  There are also online 3-D printing services too.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I dunno about the painting as regards manufacture, but to sell/transfer guns or to do gunsmithing is the same FFL, Type 1. I don't know if you need two of them to be able to do both? (but I don't think so?)

- OS

You do not need two separate. I do know from talking to a dealer recently they told him he could ONLY buy, sell or transfer on his FFL. The dealer said the agent told him he needed something additional to be able to do ANY type of gun smithing work. the dealer had high hopes but settled on transfers mostly but does have some guns he has taken in trade.

The painting constitutes manufacture came from an overzealous industry letter but it was quickly reversed. I looked and cannot find the copy I had that I printed off to show a dealer that didn't believe me. It has since been reversed anyways.

[Luke E.]

For the OP - for what a few blue guns cost, your friend could invest in a 3-D printer. As customers request different makes and models, he could print it as needed and his collection of models would grow. He could also do very obscure makes as well. There are also online 3-D printing services too.

I surely hadn't thought of the 3d printer option. I know a bit about how they work but the part I'm unsure of is where he'd find the plans, programs, dimensions or whatever it would take to tell the printer what exactly you want printed out. Is there a database of these thing s that you know of or are you thinking that he'd need to scan an actual gun to get what is needed? Thanks for the idea.

[tnguy]

A little pricey but....

 

 

There is also a thing you can do where you take a bunch of photographs and can work out a 3d model from it. You have to take a *lot* of photographs though.

 

http://www.123dapp.com/catch

[Oh Shoot]

You do not need two separate. I do know from talking to a dealer recently they told him he could ONLY buy, sell or transfer on his FFL. The dealer said the agent told him he needed something additional to be able to do ANY type of gun smithing work. ...

 

Wonder what that "additional something" is? I can find nothing beyond the 01 FFL is needed. From link below:

 

"Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01)."

 

There is a threshold you could cross where you needed a manufacturing license of course:

 

https://www.atf.gov/content/may-person-engage-gunsmithing-under-dealer%E2%80%99s-license-type-01-or-do-gunsmiths-need-be

 

- OS

Edited April 28, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Luke E.]

Wonder what that "additional something" is? I can find nothing beyond the 01 FFL is needed. From link below:

"Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01)."

There is a threshold you could cross where you needed a manufacturing license of course:

https://www.atf.gov/content/may-person-engage-gunsmithing-under-dealer%E2%80%99s-license-type-01-or-do-gunsmiths-need-be

- OS

I'm not sure and I keep forgetting to ask Dave when I'm there. I'm not sure he'll tell me any different because undoubtedly he acquired his FFL during the period that a manufacturing license was needed because that's what they made him get to conduct his normal business. He has since started assembling and selling complete rifles because in his words "why not? they made me get the manufacturing license". Building/assembling rifles was never his intention but he decided he would if there was money to be made.

[jdd65]

I surely hadn't thought of the 3d printer option. I know a bit about how they work but the part I'm unsure of is where he'd find the plans, programs, dimensions or whatever it would take to tell the printer what exactly you want printed out. Is there a database of these thing s that you know of or are you thinking that he'd need to scan an actual gun to get what is needed? Thanks for the idea.

I am really going to expose my "inner dork" here, but oh well.  There are a lot of websites for movie prop weapons or even cosplay that have lots of discussion forums on 3-D printing of weapons.  I would guess they would have resources for specifications on various handgun types.

 

I will try to search for some when I get out of the office today and see if I can send some links along.