M855/SS109 5.56 Ban!!! AKA Green Tip

[mcordell]

From another forum

"Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.” Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition. ATF will maintain the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges

Proposed change to ATF regulatory framework for "armor piercing" ammunition

Link


http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf


In summary it's similar to the Sig Brace ruling...because a bad guy might use it in an AR15 pistol, it should be viewed as a non-sporting product- Intent of the user defines the potential illegality. Read the entire document and it is pretty clear that they intend to push more of this type of initiative."

http://youtu.be/6PaIIChRMBw Edited February 16, 2015 by mcordell

[seez52]

Why do they exempt the 06 ammo. I've seen it so some pretty wicked stuff.

[Guest tangojuliet]

this is a joke right i mean come on !!

[nightrunner]

Why do they exempt the 06 ammo. I've seen it so some pretty wicked stuff.

No .30-06 handgun that I know of aside from the single shots

[Dolomite_supafly]

And as usual the gun community is going to sit around and bitch about it without even sending a single email or making a single phone call. Just think of how bad it will be is all you can get is the super expensive commercial ammunition.

[94user]

This should trigger a push back against the BATFE.  We all know it's gun control through regulation rather than legislation.  I'll be writing Cohen, Corker, and Alexander.

[mcordell]

All the M855 stuff has been selling like crazy on the web over the last 12hrs .... Palmetto state has sold nearly 2000 cases .... I hate to start a panic but I guess buy some while you still can 

[Dolomite_supafly]

What bothers me is I wonder if at some point in the future they will determine the steel jackets of cheap combloc ammunition to be AP as well. Then we will really be screwed.

 

If every person who bought a case would send an email to their representatives as well as the ATF comment email this would get squashed. But now all the gougers are buying up the ammunition and praying it is banned so they can make a buck off of their fellow gun owners. It sickens me to no end to see supposed gun owners doing stuff like this to fellow gun owners.

 

This should trigger a push back against the BATFE.  We all know it's gun control through regulation rather than legislation.  I'll be writing Cohen, Corker, and Alexander.

There will not be a push back. If the Sig brace decision didn't do it nothing will. It will be the usual bitch and complain anonymously on the net by gun owners because they are too scared to put a name with an email. Way too many gun owners are paranoid and probably a bit delusional when it comes to voicing their opinion. A lot of gun owners think if they disagree with the government they will come kick the door in and kill their family. Anyone who thinks that will happen over an email probably should not be around guns.

 

BTW, this will not affect me in the least. My hand loads will still defeat body armor as well as, probably better than, M855.

[Fourtyfive]

Midway already went to $550 a 1,000. Usually about $385 ?

I'm good on it ..... Edited February 14, 2015 by Fourtyfive

[Ugly]

They have no reason to stop.
iRS- nothing to see here
Smuggle guns to Mexico-nothing to worry about.
Smuggle South Americans and whoever else comes here to strategic locations throughout the us. Give them tax refunds for prior years and voting cards soon to follow-don't worry about it!
Of course the list goes on, there are no repercussions

Stand by, lead free will probably be next.

[Grand Torino]

I have........plenty. Just for bullsh#t reasons like this.

[VERO1]

Cue the next ammo Caliber crisis in 3-2-1........maybe if the Walmart bullet britches start hoarding this it will loosen up the 22lr supply. Looking for a sliver of hope in stupid times.

[jcluff]

for those that operate with TL;DR syndrome the below is an excerpt for voicing you thoughts on this to the ATF.

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.

Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

 ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.

 Fax: (202) 648-9741.

 Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs

and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue,

NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Grand Torino]

What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.

ATF AP Classified Rounds

• All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
• Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
• German made 9mm Para. with steel core
• MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
• BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
• 7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
• PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
• OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
• 7.62×39 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

• 5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
• .30-06 M2 AP ammo

Hopefully that clears up some confusion for you like it did for me. You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired. If you’re in the market for ammo, be sure to check out our sponsor Lucky Gunner for great online ammo prices!

[Ray Z]

You have the right to bare arms. The Dems are just going to see to it that you don't have anything to use in it. Metal piercing today, FMJ's tomorrow, and who knows what else in the future.

[gregintenn]

Looks like that little memo gave ammo retailers quite the economic boost this weekend.

 

We indeed live in interesting times.

Edited February 15, 2015 by gregintenn

[94user]

What bothers me is I wonder if at some point in the future they will determine the steel jackets of cheap combloc ammunition to be AP as well. Then we will really be screwed.

 

If every person who bought a case would send an email to their representatives as well as the ATF comment email this would get squashed. But now all the gougers are buying up the ammunition and praying it is banned so they can make a buck off of their fellow gun owners. It sickens me to no end to see supposed gun owners doing stuff like this to fellow gun owners.

 

There will not be a push back. If the Sig brace decision didn't do it nothing will. It will be the usual bitch and complain anonymously on the net by gun owners because they are too scared to put a name with an email. Way too many gun owners are paranoid and probably a bit delusional when it comes to voicing their opinion. A lot of gun owners think if they disagree with the government they will come kick the door in and kill their family. Anyone who thinks that will happen over an email probably should not be around guns.

 

BTW, this will not affect me in the least. My hand loads will still defeat body armor as well as, probably better than, M855.

 

How can you believe that the Sig brace debacle is on the same plane as banning our favorite ammo?  Do not most  gunners shoot  using  rifles, not pistols taking advantage of a loophole now rescinded by the powers that be ?

[Dolomite_supafly]

How can you believe that the Sig brace debacle is on the same plane as banning our favorite ammo?  Do not most  gunners shoot  using  rifles, not pistols taking advantage of a loophole now rescinded by the powers that be ?

I bet there are a lot more people upset over the Sig brace than will be over an ammunition ban. Seem to recall there was a great uprising when 7N6 was banned, not. Same thing will happen with this, people will just assume it is business as usual and not do a damn thing about it.

 

People, especially gun owners, do not want to even send an email to protect their rights. I send emails at least once a week, should be more often, which is a lot more often than most gun owners who proclaim to be pissed off at everything going on. Anytime I hear anyone complaining about something I ask what have they done and most give a blank stare. I ask if they have made any phone calls or send emails and I get one of two responses, either "I don't have time for that" or "What good would that do?". To that I say it can change everything if just 10% of the current gun owners called or emailed their representatives weekly. 
 

[Trekbike]

What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.

ATF AP Classified Rounds

• All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
• Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
• German made 9mm Para. with steel core
• MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
• BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
• 7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
• PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
• OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
• 7.62×39 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

• 5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
• .30-06 M2 AP ammo

Hopefully that clears up some confusion for you like it did for me. You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired. If you’re in the market for ammo, be sure to check out our sponsor Lucky Gunner for great online ammo prices!

 

 

I'm not sure the info above is correct since I found the following info on page 15 from the PDF link in the OP.

 

These AR-type handguns were not commercially available when the armor piercing ammunition exemption was granted in 1986. To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges.

[TripleGGG]

I bet there are a lot more people upset over the Sig brace than will be over an ammunition ban. Seem to recall there was a great uprising when 7N6 was banned, not. Same thing will happen with this, people will just assume it is business as usual and not do a damn thing about it.

People, especially gun owners, do not want to even send an email to protect their rights. I send emails at least once a week, should be more often, which is a lot more often than most gun owners who proclaim to be pissed off at everything going on. Anytime I hear anyone complaining about something I ask what have they done and most give a blank stare. I ask if they have made any phone calls or send emails and I get one of two responses, either "I don't have time for that" or "What good would that do?". To that I say it can change everything if just 10% of the current gun owners called or emailed their representatives weekly.

I am constantly sending emails. As you stated, I hear many rant, rave and complain but have never contacted anyone or voiced their opinion. It's sad when a very small percentage of people can create this change. Time people get off their ass and take a stand. My wife just laughs when we both send emails. She says bring on the circling helicopters at least they will know how we feel.

[Fourtyfive]

I bet there are a lot more people upset over the Sig brace than will be over an ammunition ban. Seem to recall there was a great uprising when 7N6 was banned, not. Same thing will happen with this, people will just assume it is business as usual and not do a damn thing about it.
 
People, especially gun owners, do not want to even send an email to protect their rights. I send emails at least once a week, should be more often, which is a lot more often than most gun owners who proclaim to be pissed off at everything going on. Anytime I hear anyone complaining about something I ask what have they done and most give a blank stare. I ask if they have made any phone calls or send emails and I get one of two responses, either "I don't have time for that" or "What good would that do?". To that I say it can change everything if just 10% of the current gun owners called or emailed their representatives weekly.

+1,000,000,000 Amen

[JohnC]

We need to fight to remove the authority of the BATFE to regulate and ban ammunition (and other stuff) because it's getting ridiculous that they can keep making rulings like this.

My letter to them will be, all these stupid rulings on ammo (sig braces, etc.) restricting, revoking and banning things attached to our second amendment rights has made me make the decision to make it a personal goal to push gun owners and gun rights organizations to get congress to remove that authority from the BATFE all together.

LETS STOP BEGGING THEM TO NOT TAKE OUR RIGHTS AND START WORKING TO TAKE AWAY THEIR POWER AND AUTHORITY TO DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE! :up: Edited February 17, 2015 by JohnC

[runco]

According to NRA-ILA, M855 ammo will be banned:

 

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo

 

BATFE To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo

Friday, February 13, 2015

More

In a move clearly intended by the Obama Administration to suppress the acquisition, ownership and use of AR-15s and other .223 caliber general purpose rifles, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives unexpectedly announced today that it intends to ban commonplace M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” The decision continues Obama’s use of his executive authority to impose gun control restrictions and bypass Congress.

It isn’t even the third week of February, and the BATFE has already taken three major executive actions on gun control. First, it was a major change to what activities constitute regulated “manufacturing” of firearms. Next, BATFE reversed a less than year old position on firing a shouldered “pistol.” Now, BATFE has released a “Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c)”, which would eliminate M855’s exemption to the armor piercing ammunition prohibition and make future exemptions nearly impossible.      

By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”

Now, however, BATFE says that it will henceforth grant the “sporting purposes” exception to only two categories of projectiles:

Category I: .22 Caliber Projectiles

A .22 caliber projectile that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)( B) will be considered to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile weighs 40 grains or less AND is loaded into a rimfire cartridge.

Category II: All Other Caliber Projectiles

Except as provided in Category I (.22 caliber rimfire), projectiles that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition will be presumed to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile is loaded into a cartridge for which the only handgun that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade is a single shot handgun. ATF nevertheless retains the discretion to deny any application for a “sporting purposes” exemption if substantial evidence exists that the ammunition is not primarily intended for such purposes.

BATFE is accepting comments until March 16, 2015 on this indefensible attempt to disrupt ammunition for the most popular rifle in America. Check back early next week for a more in-depth analysis of this “framework” and details on how you can submit comments.

 

How to comment – from the BATFE

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov

Fax: (202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.

[Dolomite_supafly]

What the ATF doesn't realize is ANY 223/5.56 round will easily pass through the soft body armor worn by most officers. Even an ice pick will easily defeat it. The other part is use in a pistol and they seem to think an AR pistol is as easy to conceal and then employ as a standard handgun which is totally false. I would like to see someone conceal and AR pistol, which weighs 6+ pounds and is 20"+ long, in a way that makes it easy to employ in a hurry. I say it is not possible and most criminals would not risk carrying something that big and obvious. The original law about AP rounds in pistols was meant for the pistols most commonly encountered by LE at the time and not rifles that met the definition of pistol. So I think they are well outside the bounds of the spirit of the law as it was passed. I would like to hear about the statistics regarding the criminals using AR, or 5.45 AK, pistols against LE officers but I bet they are as rare as hens teeth. Standard AR rifles far outnumber AR pistols and crimes involving AR rifles are extremely rare so I would say the odds of an officer being shot with an AR pistol loaded with M855 would be greater than winning the Power Ball.

 

Also, the idea of a 25 ACP being able to penetrate armor is ludicrous. This alone tells me they are not going with the spirit of the law as passed.

[Guest tangojuliet]

What the ATF doesn't realize is ANY 223/5.56 round will easily pass through the soft body armor worn by most officers. Even an ice pick will easily defeat it. The other part is use in a pistol and they seem to think an AR pistol is as easy to conceal and then employ as a standard handgun which is totally false. I would like to see someone conceal and AR pistol, which weighs 6+ pounds and is 20"+ long, in a way that makes it easy to employ in a hurry. I say it is not possible and most criminals would not risk carrying something that big and obvious. The original law about AP rounds in pistols was meant for the pistols most commonly encountered by LE at the time and not rifles that met the definition of pistol. So I think they are well outside the bounds of the spirit of the law as it was passed. I would like to hear about the statistics regarding the criminals using AR, or 5.45 AK, pistols against LE officers but I bet they are as rare as hens teeth. Standard AR rifles far outnumber AR pistols and crimes involving AR rifles are extremely rare so I would say the odds of an officer being shot with an AR pistol loaded with M855 would be greater than winning the Power Ball.

 

Also, the idea of a 25 ACP being able to penetrate armor is ludicrous. This alone tells me they are not going with the spirit of the law as passed.

but but steel core can pass through anything i mean i read it on the internet so it must be true ....... *rolls eyes*