Thoughts on mechanical safeties.

[Ugly]

I found this thread searching the XD. I am a 1911 fan and even splurged on a Kimber for carry. I have found that the thumb safety has walked off numerous times with an IWB. I don't bother too much with an OWB due to warm temps and covering up. 

 

I have a shoulder rig but haven't found that I'm not a huge fan. 

 

Because of the safety issue, I decided on a Glock and even choked down caliber to .40, reason being is someone at a gunshop asked me "isn't .40 enough"

 

The Glock is great for what it's purpose for me is but I still like the 45. I had an XD tactical in .45 and man o man, this thing is awesome, never once had an issue firing it, probably have 1k rounds through it with various ammo. 

 

My contribution to this thread? I think the built in safeties of the strikers are ingenious (personally). How many times have you found yourself going to take a shot with something and found the safety on? I know I have and it is probably because I have the strikers in my life but if that one shot is the one that counts............................

 

I actually like the grip safety too, it keeps my grip discipline in check, never had an issue with it. 

[Caster]

Manual safeties are just another obstacle in between me and my life.  No thank you.  

It's one of the many reasons I can't stand 1911's.  Sear engagement CAN BE LOST under impact when the ONLY thing holding the gun from firing is said sear engagement.  Glocks and similar guns don't suffer from this.  Internal design makes it all but impossible.  

 

A good, high quality, well constructed holster is the best safety there is for those who have good muzzle and trigger discipline.  

 

Anything that moves can fail.  How wonderful it'd be to have a safety malfunction while trying to move it!!!  No thank you.  

[DWARREN123]

Not a big deal to me. I carry my 1911 locked and cock and practice taking the safety off on draw. I have carried Glocks, M&Ps and others and have no problem with their operation either.

I will not carry a 1911 uncocked though.

[Joe357]

When I carried 1911's it was cocked & locked. Most of them were series 70 so they only had grip safety and thumb safety. Do I trust these safeties NO. Why you may ask, IMHO any mechanical safety can fail.

[et45]

My thoughts on manual safeties, I don't use them.Glocks,DA revolvers , Keltecs are what I carry the most

[Grayfox54]

In regard to the 1911: The grip safety blocks movement of the trigger. It is possable, although highly unlikely, that dropping the gun could "bounce" the hammer and sear out of engagement and cause the pistol to fire. The thumb safety blocks the sear from moving and essentially locks the mating surfaces of the hammer and sear together. In order for the hammer to fall and fire the pistol, something has to break. 

The 1911 is properly carried Cocked and Locked. However, if you're going to do this, you must be willing to put in the time and practice to build the muscle memory so that releasing the thumb safety on the draw is an automatic, instinctive movement which requires no thought. on your part. If you aren't willing to do this, then you should not carry a 1911.

I've been carring 1911s cocked and locked for about 30 years now. I have never had a ND nor have I ever found the thumb safety "accidently" swept off.  

 

With DA/SA semi-autos I find a mechanical safety un-necessary. I believe these pistols are best carried with a round in the chamber, hammer down and the safety off. Here that long, heavy trigger pull of firing the first round is all that is neccesary. Just like a DA revolver.

 

I can't speak of striker fired pistols as I don't have any and likely never will. However, I have noticed that these designs do seem to have more than their fair share of negligent discharges attributed to them. 

 

Just my opinions. YMMV 

[EssOne]

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters, but I was in LE and went through all of this difficult thinkery after I retired. I had carried 1911's off duty for years but was never entirely comfortable with them because of the issues you gents have identified in this thread. Same with the Browning Hi Power I carried off duty for a similar period.  My solution, at least the one that fits me best, was to go with the CZ 75/85 design, which is a SA/DA design with a non-decocking manual safety and a "firing pin safety" or "drop safety." Since all of my LE training was on the DA/SA platform,  the CZ system was a natural, especially given its superior ergonomics. I really agree that I don't want anything to do with dropping a safety before I can fire a gun, so I carry my CZ's hammer- down DA.

 

The bonus for me is that if my arthritic hands ever get so arthritic that I can't handle the DA part, I can swallow my objections and carry the gun SA with the safety locked, and still have the protection of the drop safety. Also, I use the CZ 85B because of it's ambi safety levers for the same reason. Us DORF's (Dedicated Old Retired Farts)  have to think like this. :usa:

 

The striker fired guns offer some advantages, but aren't for me. Go for it if you like them, though.

Edited April 7, 2015 by EssOne

[tnhawk]

I first had a 1911 in my hand in 1970 and have since carried it as it was designed.  Using the rules for proper handling, it has never been a problem.  I got my first XD45 in 2008 and using the proper handling rules, it has never been a problem.  If proper handling techniques are learned and practiced regularly, accidents will not happen.

[Clod Stomper]

I carried a 1911 for 14 or 15 years. On rare occasion, I would find that the thumb safety had gotten disengaged. But with a Series 80 type, the pistol will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, even if the hammer falls off the sear. That is in addition to the grip safety and the thumb safety.

To each his own. I will confidently carry a Glock or 1911.

[Caster]

I carried a 1911 for 14 or 15 years. On rare occasion, I would find that the thumb safety had gotten disengaged. But with a Series 80 type, the pistol will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, even if the hammer falls off the sear. That is in addition to the grip safety and the thumb safety.
To each his own. I will confidently carry a Glock or 1911.

I had a series 80 stainless Colt that would reliably drop the hammer when inserting a magazine. My one and only negligent discharge was with that thing. I shotmthrough two walls of my house. Thank god I had no neighbors where I lived at the time.

[Caster]

 
I can't speak of striker fired pistols as I don't have any and likely never will. However, I have noticed that these designs do seem to have more than their fair share of negligent discharges attributed to them. 
 
Just my opinions. YMMV

That's due mostly to dumbasses who can't keep the stupid finger off the trigger and that can happen with ANYTHING no matter what the design.

[dcloudy777]

It's just a training issue.  Disengaging a thumb safety is no more a "gross motor skill" than pressing a trigger, drawing from a holster, finding a sight picture, using a magazine release, or a bunch of other stuff you had better be able to do if you want to defend yourself with a gun.

 

I can't even pick up a drill anymore without "thumbing off a safety"...

[EssOne]

It's just a training issue.  Disengaging a thumb safety is no more a "gross motor skill" than pressing a trigger, drawing from a holster, finding a sight picture, using a magazine release, or a bunch of other stuff you had better be able to do if you want to defend yourself with a gun.

 

I can't even pick up a drill anymore without "thumbing off a safety"...

Agreed, sir, if one has properly addressed the issue of wise/unwise pistol selection. Here's what I mean:  Carrying cocked and locked is fine as long as you can flip the safety off, as you obviously can, without impairing your grip, or causing you to adjust your grip before you can get off a shot. If you have to do this, it mitigates any good that having a big bore pistol may otherwise afford you. Shootability in one's hands is the most important element of pistol selection, and, in the case of cocked and locked carry, that includes the ability to flip off a safety without having to readjust the gun.  I say all of this because there's no way I have ever been able to do it, either on a 1911 or BHP, so it would be extremely unwise for me to even consider these guns for carry purposes. I could train until it freezes in a hot place widely mentioned in the Holy Scriptures, and I still couldn't get off a competent first shot without adjusting the gun in my hand after dropping the safety.

Edited April 6, 2015 by EssOne

[Dolomite_supafly]

Most people who complain about the thumb safety being bumped off have the extended safeties. In my opinion the extended thumb safety is useless and dangerous. Every 1911 I have ever carried has had a standard thumb safety. I have bought brand new guns with extended thumb safeties and I remove them immediately or file them down much, much smaller. I do that because I would have the extended thumb safety get bumped off all the time.

 

Soft leather holsters are dangerous. You MUST have a stiff, either leather or plastic, holster in order for you to avoid shooting yourself or others.

 

And the absolutely worst holster is the floppy, one size fits all, canvas holsters with the thump strap. I see people carry all the time using those canvas POS holsters and they are flat out dangerous. I have cut up those canvas holsters rather than even give them away because they are so dangerous. And people who carry a gun in them regularly, or even occasionally, are dangerous idiots that have no hope of defending themselves. All they are doing is carrying the gun, in the same way people carry HCP badges, to try to impress someone or because they are too stupid to realize how idiotic it is to carry a HCP or a gun in a canvas holster.

[ehull20000]

I have carried one gun with a thumb safety, a S&W M&P 357c. I remember vividly knocking the safety on while firing. I don't carry a gun with a thumb safety because of this.

During training with the Berreta M9 we practice decock-unlock before holstering. Meaning we use the safety to decock the hammer and then place the safety off before inserting the weapon into the holster. I have engaged the safety on the M9 numerous times when releasing the slide after a magazine change. I don't carry an M9 off duty because of this.

I only carry my Glock in a Kydex holster that I have tried everyway possible to cause an AD with by reholstering. It can't happen because there is not an edge that will fit inside the trigger guard.

I spend time every week doing dry draw, shoot, reload, shoot, and then holster practice to mitigate the possibility of AD with a Glock. This is in addition to normal range time each week.

[Ugly]

Dolomite, you nailed it for me. My compact 1911 has an offset safety due to design. In an iwb I was worried about it breaking.
It's only offset on the left side. The right is against the frame.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Still Ugly

[Schadenfreude]

Ever class I have been to taught on 1911 or Bhp's the thumb should ride on top of the safety starting with proper grip from the holster the safety comes off at count 2 of the draw stroke. If you're hand is not capable of this grip then a 1911 is not for you. Also there is no need to speed re-holster, pause at count 2 safety on, then re-holster. I had one holster that I found the safety getting flipped off in repeatedly, I no longer own that holster. These days I mostly carry a striker fired gun but would be comfortable with either. Edited April 7, 2015 by Schadenfreude

[Refleks]

Manual safety is fine if that's what you like, just train with it often like anything else. It really is as cut and dry as that.

[DaveTN]

Know your weapon and how it functions without question. Comparing a 1911 carried with safety off to other semi-autos is apples/oranges.

Not all accidental/negligent discharges are from someone intentionally pulling the trigger. If it happened with a 1911 being carried with the safety off we would happily put that in the negligent category.

Everything is application driven. Some so called “safeties” are not safeties at all but “features”; like magazine disconnects or key locks. If they don’t fit your application; don’t use them or don’t buy them. But they aren’t going to go away because there is a market for them.

Firearms are mechanical devices; they can fail. Safeties can fail. If they do fail and proper handling techniques are being employed; no one gets shot even if the weapon fires.

[leroy]

Steel and all...

 

I've waited a bit to post this little blurb because it sometimes stirs up a hornet's nest between the few geezers among us and the "cocked and locked" crowd... In my  younger days, i carried a GM and a light weight commander quite a bit... I didn't like the "cocked and locked" thing because i had occasionally seen the safeties knocked off the 1911's when the safety detents were a bit weak...

 

I never believed much in the idea that a mechanical safety was a foolproof way to keep an accidental discharge from happenin... As the great Elmer Keith opined, "safeties should not be trusted"...  I always carried my 1911's on the half-cock or with the hammer down, because the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin... This is an old style form of carry now considered right up there next to blasphemin the great John M Browning by the "cocked and locked" 1911 nazis among us (...you know who you are...HEHEHE...)...

 

The problem with this mode of carry wuz that it you were unfortunate enough to drop your 1911 on a hard surface, there was a chance of a discharge, and that, in fact, did happen... It caused Colt to introduce the firing pin lock in the series 80 pistolas...

 

On a personal basis, i dont like the "cocked and locked" carry unless the safety detent is real crisp... My little Sig 238 has that feature, but it also has holster covering the safety, which i think helps ensure that the safety cant be accidentally knocked off...

 

The point of this little blurb is to make the blasphemous pronouncement that a 1911 is not as mechanically advanced from a safe operation standpoint as the striker fired pistolas like the Glock and others...

 

The 1911 is a great pistola, and will make any finished gunman (...or woman...) a great tool for defense... As Dave (...and others...) have said, ya need to absolutely know how it works mechanically and how to handle it no matter the circumstances... Above all, dont drop it...

 

leroy

Edited April 8, 2015 by leroy

[Jonnin]

Agreed, sir, if one has properly addressed the issue of wise/unwise pistol selection. Here's what I mean:  Carrying cocked and locked is fine as long as you can flip the safety off, as you obviously can, without impairing your grip, or causing you to adjust your grip before you can get off a shot. If you have to do this, it mitigates any good that having a big bore pistol may otherwise afford you. Shootability in one's hands is the most important element of pistol selection, and, in the case of cocked and locked carry, that includes the ability to flip off a safety without having to readjust the gun.  I say all of this because there's no way I have ever been able to do it, either on a 1911 or BHP, so it would be extremely unwise for me to even consider these guns for carry purposes. I could train until it freezes in a hot place widely mentioned in the Holy Scriptures, and I still couldn't get off a competent first shot without adjusting the gun in my hand after dropping the safety.

 

While I can do the fancy juggle of draw and thumb off the safety and all that crap one handed in a pinch, what works best for me is to use my supporting hand on the safety while my gripping hand retains a proper hold on the gun.    Seeing as how mine isnt a real 1911 (938) and has an ambi safety, and I am left handed, this technique may or may not work well for other pistols but it gets the job done for me without the juggle.   Honestly the ambi safety was one of the biggest compelling reasons I bought it when I already had the 238.  With the ambi safety AND the very small pistol frame, I can actually flip the off-side safety without losing my proper grip using my thumb, but that may be a lot trickier on a full sized pistol.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Jonnin

[Dolomite_supafly]

I was shot by a faulty safety on someone else's duty gun. His belt fell to the ground and when it hit the 1911 went off. The bullet, which was FMJ, passed through my leg, ricocheted off a candy machine and lodged in a wall. I walked around 2-3 minutes before I realized something was wrong. My heal began going numb so I figured the bullet hit the sole of my boot. When I looked down I noticed white stuff hanging out of my boot. Turned out to be my sock.

From the time I was shot until I healed it felt no worse than a sore, or pulled, muscle. And it did not bleed a single drop until the doctors began treating me. It did cause a hairline fracture in one of my shin bones but because of the open wound they did not cast it. The bullet passed through ~4"-5" of flesh as well as through the boot material.

The officer said there was a round in the chamber but I am unclear if the hammer was down or if the gun was cocked with the the thumb safety engaged. The grip safety was not engaged.

I tell this when people claim FMJ from a 1911 will rip your arm or leg off with a graze. Or that it will incapacitate no matter where you are hit. I could have easily continued to fight indefinitely. Matter of fact once I seen it was not bleeding I argued with EMS because I did not want to be transported to the ER. It was a pass through would that was not life threatening and would have healed fine with the doctors.