Thoughts on mechanical safeties.

[Steelharp]

Wanted to ask your thoughts on mechanical safeties. There are so many new handguns out there that have no thumb safety, and tons of us carry them every day with no problem.

 

We seem to have this notion stuck in our heads about 1911's, though. They should be carried "cocked & locked," we believe, with that thumb safety engaged. Is this antiquated thinking?

 

Along comes the Springfield XD, with ONLY a grip safety, ala the 1911's. We feel perfectly fine with that properly holstered with only a grip safety.

 

Would it not stand to reason, then, that a properly holstered 1911 without the thumb safety engaged, and only IT'S grip safety doing the job, would be every bit as safe? Is it just ancient mental imagery, including that hammer being back that makes us feel uneasy about not having that thumb lever flipped?

 

[Patton]

I think the locked and cocked preference has to do with many 1911s not being drop safe with the hammer down. What is the trigger pull of most 1911s? I am guessing considerably lighter than most striker or Da.

[Steelharp]

What is the trigger pull of most 1911s? I am guessing considerably lighter than most striker or Da.

But, as we ALL say repeatedly, guns don't go off by themselves. Proper trigger discipline and all... and properly holstered, the trigger is covered...

[Jamie Jackson]

The history of the development of the famous Browning designed 1911 is fascinating...from the need spurred by the Moro Insurrection and trials for a new service pistol and the multiple iterations of what we now recognized as the 1911 with it's thumb safety.

 

Here's an interesting link and it has further links to the 1910 no thumb safety model.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1910hammerless.shtml

 

While I personally think the grip safety on a 1911 is an abomination and shouldn't exist...there are quite a few documented instances of people not being able to engage the grip safety when injured, and therefore not having a weapon they can operate at the worst possible time, I still like the idea on a thumb safety on a 1911...because "things happen". :cool:

 

But apparently Browning didn't initially feel the safeties were necessary at all.

 

 

I carry a Glock and have for many years and feel completely comfortable with not having a manual safety...but would not carry a striker fired pistol without a properly designed holster. :2cents:

[Jamie Jackson]

a bit of "Google-Fu" :pleased:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Model_1910

 

"The Colt Model 1910 was a prototype .45 ACP caliber automatic pistol developed by John Browning as an improvement of the earlier Colt Model 1909, which was rejected by the United States Department of War due to the Cavalry's belief that the design was too complicated for use by enlisted men, and because it lacked a safety mechanism."

 

 

 

 

[peejman]

My thought is that the "cocked and locked" comes from several (old) things...

 

- The exposed hammer and the idea that the gun could discharge if dropped on the exposed hammer. 

 

- Single action guns (revolvers) that simply wouldn't fire at all until the hammer was manually cocked (in addition to the drop issue)

 

- History with lots of botched trigger jobs that made 1911's unsafe.  Its pretty easy to screw one up if you don't know what you're doing. 

 

- Carrying a gun with the exposed hammer in the full cock position just looks dangerous and sexy. 

 

The XD has a trigger safety in addition to the grip safety and no exposed hammer.  The nature of the striker fired design is such that he gun is half cocked anytime a round is in the chamber so there's no DA/SA trigger pull difference that some folks get so excited about. 

[Patton]

But, as we ALL say repeatedly, guns don't go off by themselves. Proper trigger discipline and all... and properly holstered, the trigger is covered...

Yeah, they say that, but a lot is at risk when a foreign object can enter the trigger guard. I have never had a negligent or accidental discharge with a firearm, but I was doing some training when a fellow officer tried to disarm me and we heard the CLICK. It's not unheard of for a drawstring, thumb strap, or someone else's finger to pull a trigger. It has been on my mind a lot in the dozen or so times a day I will holster.

[Patton]

- Single action guns (revolvers) that simply wouldn't fire at all until the hammer was manually cocked (in addition to the drop issue)

- Carrying a gun with the exposed hammer in the full cock position just looks dangerous and sexy.

There are cops in this state that actually carry on duty 1911's with a hammer down; it would never sit well with me. Edited March 10, 2015 by Patton

[173rdABN]

On a carry gun, safety's are stupid. Be responsible. Know what's around your gun and how you carry it and the chances of it going off... Well there really aren't any chances unless your careless. I carry a G19, never have and never will worry about it accidentally going off.

[E4 No More]

During a gunfight it can be argued that your fine motor skills are diminished to the point that you wouldn't be able to manipulate a thumb safety anyways: however, if for whatever reason you have a ND I would think that your intentionally leaving the safety off would increase your punitive damages. :shrug:

 

I've thought about this with my Shield's safety being so small. On my 1911's and Slim 9 the safety is larger and thus easier to switch off with the thumb.

[KKing]

No mechanical safeties on anything you will ever have to use when motor skills will be diminished.

No, no, no, no.

Just no. Edited March 10, 2015 by KKing

[Patton]

We have slightly veered from topic. The issue in question is concerning a 1911 being carry cocked, but without using a safety.

I totally agree that safeties have no place on a self-defense firearm. I have made an exception with my Shield, but I know that it is there to deal with.

[LagerHead]

I think the locked and cocked preference has to do with many 1911s not being drop safe with the hammer down. What is the trigger pull of most 1911s? I am guessing considerably lighter than most striker or Da.

 

I think this is exactly where this thinking comes from. The pre-series 80 (or pre-series II, if you're a Kimber guy) were not drop safe with the safety in the off position. Newer (as in the last 30 years) 1911s don't have this flaw, in general, and should be considered drop safe. I have never tried a good drop test with my 1911, but I have with Glocks and XDs, both successfully. I guess it's time to give it a shot and confirm what I already know. 

[Jonnin]

I dislike the 1911 grip safety, actually.   It seems redundant and it feels weird to me.  

 

The deal with a safety is pretty simple to me.   IMHO you need one if the gun fires easily --- usually this means a short trigger pull, and that pretty much means all single actions (autos..) and 1911s or their red headed stepkids like my sig 938. 

 

Almost nothing else "needs" one.  If it has a 10 pound over an inch and a half pull to fire, like typical DAO or DA/SA first shot,  it does not need a safety at all.  The lighter striker fired guns are borderline, they have a long trigger (mushy) with a light pull weight.  

 

However, manual safeties have a great feature in common, across all models from rifle to machine gun to pistol:  you do not have to engage it, ever.  If you do not like it, leave it in "fire" mode.   Because of this, IMHO the majority of pistols *should* have one or be offered in a with/without configuration or make it easy to remove.  

 

I would classify a gun as needing a safety if it can be fired by picking it up by its trigger (gun in its "holstered" state).   This is where the oft cited "you need a proper holster"  lecture comes in.  If your gun were not dangerous, it would not need a "proper holster", it would be fine if you threw it loose in a pocket, backpack, purse, or whatever.   If the holster is a substitute for a safety, the gun should have had a manual safety.   But a lot of guns DO lack a safety and ARE dangerous without a holster...  a fact that must be dealt with by the owners of those types of guns.    (I do not advocate carrying a gun loose, you do so at your own risk and make your own adult choices here.   This is just a way to explain the issue.)

 

At the end of the day, the safety is your last defense against having screwed up somehow.   

[Dolomite_supafly]

A thumb grip safety on a 1911 does not prevent the hammer from falling it only prevents the trigger from being pulled. The only way to ensure the hammer will not fall is with a properly fitted, and engaged, thumb safety.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Dolomite_supafly

[E4 No More]

A thumb grip safety on a 1911 does not prevent the hammer from falling it only prevents the trigger from being pulled. The only way to ensure the hammer will not fall is with a properly fitted, and engaged, thumb safety.

Huh?

Edited March 11, 2015 by Dolomite_supafly

[Steelharp]

Huh?

^^^^^^ Yeah... what??

[nightrunner]

^^^^^^ Yeah... what??

I think he meant grip safety at the beginning. But I'll let him clarify

[AtomicRooster]

No thanks. Trigger discipline has served me well. I'm a full blooded Glock fan boy anyway.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The grip safety does not prevent the hammer from falling. Only the thumb safety can prevent the hammer from falling.

 

Sorry guys, heavily medicated earlier.

[DWARREN123]

Really, to me, depends on the firearm and person carrying it. 1911s are designed to be carried cocked and locked. I believe newer design 1911s can be carried at the half cocked position. I like locked and cocked.

[TNWNGR]

There are cops in this state that actually carry on duty 1911's with a hammer down; it would never sit well with me.

Well I sure didn't carry mine that way, it was cocked and locked in a Safariland thumb break holster. The final 1911 GM design had the grip safety and frame safety for a variety of reasons. I used to shoot a 1911 GM that had it's grip safety deactivated, needless to say the 1911 I carried on duty years later had a fully functional grip safety and frame safety.

[Steelharp]

The XD has a trigger safety in addition to the grip safety and no exposed hammer. 

And I believe the whole lot of "trigger safeties," Glocks, XD's, etc., are one of the most effective and ignorant "Barnum & Bailey" (sucker born every minute) ad campaigns of all time that a bunch of people have fallen for. There is NOTHING that is going to enter the trigger guard and miss that center blade and hit only one of the outside blades of the trigger. Now, THAT is a useless "safety."

[nightrunner]

And I believe the whole lot of "trigger safeties," Glocks, XD's, etc., are one of the most effective and ignorant "Barnum & Bailey" (sucker born every minute) ad campaigns of all time that a bunch of people have fallen for. There is NOTHING that is going to enter the trigger guard and miss that center blade and hit only one of the outside blades of the trigger. Now, THAT is a useless "safety."

And I have looked for just a solid trigger to eliminate the trigger safety and convert to standard, but I have found nothing, you would think the aftermarket would have something even if it was marketed solely for competition use, etc.

[graycrait]

I tried to "get with the program" man-up and carry a 1911 cocked and locked. Invariably during my day of being in the woods, and doing everything I normally do during the day I would look down and see the thumb safety off.  But the weight of a 40oz pistol got to me as much as the thumb safety getting knocked off.  I do have one friend who shot himself in the butt with a Glock by carrying his Glock in a soft holster in his back pocket.  Reinserting that Glock into that suede holster after his morning constitutional earned him a trip the Vanderbilt ER.  However, at the time at nearly 90 years old and owner of many many dozens of firearms and a WWII Marine vet he decided he better stick with .38 revolvers.  He is now 95 and still shoots most every day.  He is fondly known as Butt Shot in his neck of the TN woods.  There may be a time for a variety of reasons that make us change our carry gun practices.