Lawmakers won't be silenced over Obama administration's proposed ammo ban

[The Legion]

This is an update on the Ammo Ban.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/28/lawmakers-wont-be-silenced-over-obama-administration-proposed-ammo-ban/

 

 

 

Lawmakers are firing back at a proposal by the Obama administration to ban one of the most common bullets used with the popular AR-15 rifle, with more than 100 members of Congress signing a letter opposing the move on ammo.

Word of the  proposal by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to ban .223 M855 “green tip” ammunition came out on Thursday and prompted an immediate backlash from sportsmen. House members from both parties and some law enforcement officials were not far behind.

“[The ban] will interfere with Second Amendment rights by disrupting the market for ammunition that law abiding Americans use for sporting and other legitimate purposes,” reads the letter signed by lawmakers and addressed to ATF director Todd Jones.

 

The bullets, which can pierce bulletproof vests used by law enforcement, had previously been approved by the ATF in 1986. The agency now says that because handguns have now been designed that can also fire the bullets, police officers are now more likely to encounter them and so they should be banned.

However, the congressional letter notes that the ATF provides no evidence of the bullet’s danger to law enforcement.

“ATF has not even alleged – much less offered evidence – that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” the letter reads.

Many police organizations are also not in favor of the ban.

“The notion that all of a sudden a new pistol requires banning what had long been perfectly legal ammunition doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to many officers,” William Johnson, executive director of the National Association of Police Organizations, told FoxNews.com

NAPO represents over 1,000 police units and associations and 241,000 law enforcement officers around the country.

Johnson added that the bullets currently banned under the law deserve to stay banned.

“Some bullets… such as ones coated with Teflon, really are specifically designed to defeat bullet proof vests, and we think they should remain illegal,” he said.

But some law enforcement experts support the ban.

“I am definitely for the banning of these rounds… officers worry about them all the time,” former NYPD detective Harry Houck told FoxNews.com, though he added that a ban might not actually keep criminals from getting the ammunition.

Gun control groups support the ban.

"We understand why law enforcement has always been concerned about the threat of armor-piercing bullets," Dan Gross, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, told FoxNews.com.

Lawmakers warn that the regulation – especially as it follows on the heels of attempts to restrict lead bullets -- will “result in drastically reduced options for lawful ammunition users.” Already, the ammunition has been cleared from many store shelves by gun owners looking to stock up in anticipation of the ban. The proposed regulation would not prohibit owning the bullets, but it would stop anyone from manufacturing or importing them.

Gun-rights groups also worry that the ban – if allowed to stand – won’t stop with this type of bullet.

“Almost any hunting rifle bullet will go through body armor, so you could prohibit almost any rifle bullet with this. This is the administration redefining the law on its own,” Alan Gottlieb, of the Second Amendment Foundation, told FoxNews.com.

The lawmakers also dispute the ATF’s legal authority to ban the bullets, saying that the proposed ban “does not comport with the letter or spirit of the law.”

The law, which was passed in 1986, gives the agency authority to ban bullets that are “constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium.”

However, the congressmen say that the core of these bullets “contains a substantial amount of lead, raising questions about its classification as ‘armor piercing’ in the first place.”

The congressmen also allege that the ATF violated government transparency requirements.

“The Administrative Procedures Act… requires that ‘general notice of proposed rulemaking shall be published in the Federal Register…’ To date, [the proposed ban] has not been published in the Federal Register.”

The ATF has announced that it is currently taking public comments on the regulation until March 16, when it will prepare to issue a final regulation. Comments can be sent to APAComments@atf.gov.

An ATF spokesman emphasized that no final decision has been made yet.

“No final determinations have been made and we won’t make any determinations until we’ve reviewed the comments submitted by industry, law enforcement and the public at large,” ATF spokesman Corey Ray told FoxNews.com.

“The framework is… intended to protect law enforcement while respecting the interests of sportsmen and the industry,” he also noted.

[xjsnake]

Good deal.

 

I wonder who all signed the letter? I can't find a list.

[btq96r]

A strongly worded letter?  How UN of them.  My rant from how much better they could do from the other thread.

Edited February 28, 2015 by btq96r

[Oh Shoot]

A strongly worded letter?  How UN of them. ..

 

And a whopping 100 of them signing on, out of 535.

 

- OS

[The Legion]

And a whopping 100 of them signing on, out of 535.

 

- OS

That was my excite thought also.

[Randall53]

And a whopping 100 of them signing on, out of 535.

 

- OS

 

Well, we all know how reading is loathed in Washington. I'm sure the other 435 are too busy playing politics to read the letter.

[btq96r]

And a whopping 100 of them signing on, out of 535.

 

- OS

 

I'd rather have five members of Congress put up a real fight than 100 sign a letter that will be ignored.  Letters with a lot of signatories are only effective at letting a cabinet official know that a proposal requiring Congressional approval isn't going to happen.  Since this is an internal ruling Congress should be expressing its disapproval through legislation to preempt BAFTE, not sending letters on the issue.

[Chucktshoes]

Johnson added that the bullets currently banned under the law deserve to stay banned.
“Some bullets… such as ones coated with Teflon, really are specifically designed to defeat bullet proof vests, and we think they should remain illegal,” he said.

Wait, wut? :lol:

[Wingshooter]

Wait, wut? :lol:

LOL!

Oooo... scary Teflon, lol

[nightrunner]

LOL!

Oooo... scary Teflon, lol

Isn't teflon coating mostly what got Black Talons banned?

Nothing is new under the sun.

[Reservoir Dog]

Isn't teflon coating mostly what got Black Talons banned?

 

Black Talon ammo was never banned.  Winchester/Olin voluntarily pulled them from the market.  The coating on Black Talons was some sort of oxide coating, which did not give the rounds any sort of armor piercing capabilities.  Black Talons never had a Teflon coating.  They fell victim to an anti-gun PR campaign.

[Wingshooter]

Black Talon ammo was never banned.  Winchester/Olin voluntarily pulled them from the market.  The coating on Black Talons was some sort of oxide coating, which did not give the rounds any sort of armor piercing capabilities.  Black Talons never had a Teflon coating.  They fell victim to an anti-gun PR campaign.

And for the record, Teflon does not give any sort of armor piercing capability either. It helps eggs not stick as bad to a fry pan, though :)

[SupaRice]

Getting 100 politicians to sign ANYTHING these days seems like a miracle. Good first step.

And, correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't the armed forces themselves... who I would think qualify as "experts" on the matter NOT refer to 855 at an AP round? Rather it's "enhanced pentration round", right?

[Moped]

Didn't Winchester re-brand Black Talons?  I believe you can still buy the same basic bullet.

[K191145]

I'd rather have five members of Congress put up a real fight than 100 sign a letter that will be ignored.  Letters with a lot of signatories are only effective at letting a cabinet official know that a proposal requiring Congressional approval isn't going to happen.  Since this is an internal ruling Congress should be expressing its disapproval through legislation to preempt BAFTE, not sending letters on the issue.

 

Doesn't congress control funding for federal agencys? The threat of taking money away from them sometimes work.

[btq96r]

Doesn't congress control funding for federal agencys? The threat of taking money away from them sometimes work.

 

Yup, "power of the purse" as it's called.  Congress also has appropriations authority, meaning they can decide what money is authorized for what specific purposes and what is up to the discretion of the agency management.  They can also stall nominations of appointees, though for law enforcement agencies, that's not always the best plan.

 

The biggest wrench to throw into the machine of BATFE would be to hold hearings to find out what went into the process behind this decision.  I doubt they want subpoenas issued for all their internal emails, call logs, meeting notes, ect., as a prelude to testimony under oath.

[Ugly]

Yup, "power of the purse" as it's called. Congress also has appropriations authority, meaning they can decide what money is authorized for what specific purposes and what is up to the discretion of the agency management. They can also stall nominations of appointees, though for law enforcement agencies, that's not always the best plan.

The biggest wrench to throw into the machine of BATFE would be to hold hearings to find out what went into the process behind this decision. I doubt they want subpoenas issued for all their internal emails, call logs, meeting notes, ect., as a prelude to testimony under oath.

You guys are funny. (Not really) You're living in the past, that's the way it is supposed to and used to work. It hasn't worked out that way the last 6 years. Look at fast and furious, the irs, EPA and the list goes on.

[btq96r]

You guys are funny. (Not really) You're living in the past, that's the way it is supposed to and used to work. It hasn't worked out that way the last 6 years. Look at fast and furious, the irs, EPA and the list goes on.

 

I'm just saying what they could do if they were serious enough.  But I really think they care more about having the issues front and center to give them press time, and use for the next election than actually solving them.  Darrell Issa's time as House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chariman was more reality TV than investigatory, and he was supposed to be on it with those issues you mentioned.

 

Problem with this is, the impact is already being felt because people don't feel that BATFE will be impeded in any way.   The last few hundred rounds of PMC X-TAC 5.56mm I have become a reserve instead of training ammo because of this.  If all BATFE see's is a letter, they aren't going to be worried about it.

[GKar]

Didn't Winchester re-brand Black Talons?  I believe you can still buy the same basic bullet.

The T-series (aka, SXT), I believe.

[JWC]

Black Talon= SXT- Same eXact Thing... At least that's what I've always heard it's what it stood for.



Edit... Haha I suppose I mistyped "black" and it autocorrected to Barack. Lol Edited March 2, 2015 by JWC

[raildog]

I always heard the reason for the black talon ban was th protect emergency medical professionals from blood borne decease because of the way they expanded they were very sharp and would cut thru gloves and skin when they were working on gun shoot vec.

[Clod Stomper]

I always heard the reason for the black talon ban was th protect emergency medical professionals from blood borne decease because of the way they expanded they were very sharp and would cut thru gloves and skin when they were working on gun shoot vec.

Well, that was part of the propaganda program against them. Complete BS of course. Any jacket bullet can have sharp edges.

Oh, and they weren't banned. Winchester changed the name and omitted the black coating on the bullet.

[JAB]

And for the record, Teflon does not give any sort of armor piercing capability either. It helps eggs not stick as bad to a fry pan, though :)

 

And there are links to flaking-off teflon and Alzheimer's.  Maybe that was the real danger everyone was afraid of - not the effects of being shot but the enhanced chance of getting Alzheimer's later (being facetious, of course.) 

 

Didn't Winchester re-brand Black Talons?  I believe you can still buy the same basic bullet.

 

 

The T-series (aka, SXT), I believe.

 

I believe that the latest update/generation of ammo that stemmed from Black Talons is also the same ammo that is sold on the civilian market under the PDX1 brand name.

[Will]

A couple of ER Doctors on one of the sixty minutes type shows claimed they turned an otherwise non lethal wound into a lethal wound because the sharp

edges would throw off a lot of debris making the wound untreatable in addition to things posted above.  Most LE Agency's had quit using them already

because of their poor stopping power compared to other loads.

[atlas3025]

I think we should challenge the notion that civilians cant have AP ammo in the first place. I suppose they would have us believe criminals dont have armor (LA Shootout). Of course, the purpose of the The 2nd Amendment is to guard us against tyranny. Tyrants usually have armor.