Discussion of Carry Permit Info as Open Records

[Guest Len]

Hello All:

I've been wrestling with this issue for a while now (since a paper in VA made their carry permit data available via web search) and would like input from the forum.

Since the Tennessean posted the carry permit database (name and city of every permit holder in TN, some -including me-listed twice) there has been quite a rage over making this data available, even though it is clearly in the public domain. I guess putting it on the web in easy to search form is not the same as having to trek to Foster Ave in Nashville and fill out a form in person, which is how you would have to go about making a request to see this info now.

But I think there is more to it than that. Maybe some people don't realize how much information is out there that is legally "public." I'm a state employee, so my entire personnel file (except for my SSN) is available for viewing. You can walk into the HR office at my school, say "I want to see Len's file." and its yours for the looking. (So, if anyone has an incredible urge to see my salary, the last year I was promoted, or my W-2 form, go for it!)

I own property in Tennessee. Go to the Assessor of Property office and ask to see all the data on my little piece of Sumner County. I have a car titled with the state. Go check out what color my Honda is. I live inside the city limits of Gallatin, so I pay city property taxes. Want to know how much? Call the City Recorder's office. They know.

The point is that there is LOTS of public information out there, so what is so bad about carry permit info being out there? I'd like to hear from the group, both pro and con if possible. I talked to a lawyer buddy of mine this morning (he and his wife hold carry permits in TN and own multiple firearms) and he could care less that the info is in the public domain.

Discuss.

[Guest mrnord]

Property taxes, work history, personnel files are fine. I don't want every Thom, Dick and Harry knowing that I have an HGC permit. As I stated in the other thread, I think that my HGC status is my business and no one elses. The information there could be used by prospective employers, banks, ect...in thier decision making process. Current employers could use the info to begin Search and Seisure type raids on thier employees. They check the database, find employee name listed, employee is searched, harrassed and ultimately fired or leaves due to pressure or loss of trust, or respect. Criminals could use the info to plan thier activities...This guy has an HGC, he has a gun, we'll take that too...This guy isn't on the list, easy pickens...Nosey Rosies could use it to find out how many of thier neighbors have HGCs and then begin harassing them.

These are my views and not meant to disrespect anyone whose view may differ form mine.

Carl

[waynesan]

Len,

Thanks for posting your question as you did. I always enjoy reading your posts.

You are correct that there is an awful lot of information about us that is a matter of public record. And much of that information is useful for the general public to be able to access. Property taxes, ownership, real estate selling prices, criminal histories and many other such factoids about us and our dealings can be beneficial in many ways by being accessable to the public at large.

However, I think when it comes to firearms you enter into a catagory of life that is different than most others, especially when it comes to Handgun Carry. Many people, whichever side of the carry issue they come down on, approach the issue with an almost religeous zeal. (I know I do) And I for one would rather choose who knows about my predilection for gun carry as opposed to being "outed" by a newspaper that does not have my best interest at heart, and quite frankly would like to see my right to carry taken away. Editorially, I don't think the "Tennessean" has been our friend.

In spite of what I just said, for me personally, I would not expect the fact that I carry being made public to cause me any great harm. I can imagine in some certain nefarious scenarios, that in all likelihood will not take place, someone could use such a database and cause me trouble. My concern is not so much about my own well being but more so about others.

I mentioned in an earlier post that my daughter, who lives alone, and has a carry permit, was listed on the database. And although her address was not given, because of an unusual name spelling and her city of residence, her identity could easily be determined by someone who really wanted to know. And it is not too hard to imagine that because of her occupation, an anti-carry supervisor (the religeous zeal factor I mentioned) could definately cause her problems. And I don't think she is alone in finding herself working for an organization that has a group mentality that would look down on someone who thinks personal firearms are an answer to violent attacks.

I don't know if this link has been posted, but it is a video done by CNN on the mess the Roanoke Times got into by posting the names of Va. concealed carry holders.

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Finally, in spite of my disgust at the "Tennessean" for posting the database for what I consider no other reasons than to rile the pro-carry crowd and to pretend they were performing some noble service by makeing the database easily accessed, I am also angry at the State Legislature for not making the identity of Handgun Permit holders only available to Law Enforcement. Other states have done this and we should too. Maybe something to work on in the future.

I could say more. But my fingers are getting tired and I got to go mow the yard.

[Guest Len]

Thanks Wayne for a thoughtful reply. You raise an issue I would have liked to have seen discussed more (but TGO is not really the place for it, I guess) and that's why the Tennessean posted the database to begin with. It was not really necessary as part of the story on the legislation moving through the house and senate. It was not really on-topic. General numbers and stats about carry permit holders, sure. But a list of names and cities? Not sure what they were thinking there.

--End of substantive commentary on issues related to forum--

---Begin un-related rant here---

Folks, reporters come across stuff everyday that is "juicy" and, at best, marginally related to a story they are covering. But if it has nothing to do with the heart of the story, if its not relevant to the FACTS, then it has no business being in the story. This is literally Journalism 101. What I see happening to the big media in this country is that they are forgetting their role as the "4th Estate" and instead focusing on profit at the expense of good journalism and actual news. The Tennessean is but one sad local example of a national trend.

Its ironic that the Tennessean chose to do this story, considering I have heard of an editor there who has said to staffers that the Tennessean "is not in the business of covering the legislature." Look at the bylines -most Tennessean coverage of the legislature is taken from the AP -even though the Tennessean is literally walking distance to the capitol.

That is a sad state of affairs.

So, what are we to do? Revert to TV news? Dont make me laugh/cry. Its even worse. The blogosphere? Yeah right. National media? They care little about what goes on in TN. Folks, if you are in West TN, read the Commercial Appeal. It is far superior to the Tennessean in most measures of quality newspapers. East TN? The Knoxville News-Sentinel does a better job of state coverage than the Nashville media. Stuck in Middle TN? The Nashville City Paper actually has decent coverage of capitol hill by a reporter who actually knows his way to the legislature. The Daily News Journal in Murfreesboro also does a better job than the Tennessean.

---End rant here---

[The Rabbi]

Honestly with so much info out there, it doesnt bother me terribly. Yeah, someone could get a hold of such info and use it in nefarious ways. But in fact that seldom, if ever, happens. And criminals just aren't that smart or industrious.

I dont know what the rate of gun ownership is in this state. But I'll bet it's high. So out of any 10 houses someone breaks into, I'd guess that he would find guns in 7 or 8 of them.

WHat bothers me about the Tennessean is the fact that they think it's newsworthy, and that they think they are sticking it to permit holders by publishing this info. What did they hope to accomplish by putting this database on line? What message were they sending? I dont know, but think its a worthwhile question.

[bteague2]

People that don't have permits should be mad that the paper published that and let people know they were unarmed. That being said, I think it should be public knowledge but you should have to fill out a form in a city/county building somewhere to see if a person has one or not, like everything else mentioned. Keep a record of who accesses what so there is a paper trail if something does happen, not on the internet where litteraly anyone can see it.

[Guest macho999]

Being in my business I know all about the info that is available in the courthouse. I can look at a topo map, go to the court house and find the area on a tax map, find your deed, your address, sometimes even a picture of your house or the land and a lot of other stuff. I can find your mortgage and every mortgage that's ever been on your property. I'll find your granddaddy's will, the guy who got a patent for your property, if you've sold your timber, coal or other minerals or if you've leased any of the above.

However, I can't go in the courthouse and look up your medical history. I can't get it at the hospital unless I'm a doctor.

I can't go into random gun stores and find all your 4473s.

I'm all for making carry permit information restricted. Your property data is available so that if you're trying to sell your property it's much harder to lie and say you own your coal or oil and gas when you really don't or to say you don't have any liens on your property when you really do.

There's absolutely no reason my carry permit status would need to be public.

[Guest mrnord]

Here is the actual E-Mail I recived from Senator Southerlands Office this morning. I have edited my contact info for privacy.

Mr. Nordman, as you will see from the below e-mail correspondence, the

public does not have access to the handgun permit holders' database.

According to Ms. Merkel who is the public information officer for the

Department of Safety, the Tennessean received complaints about the list

being published on their website and have removed it.

Sometimes public disclosure is not the best way to go especially in

cases such as these. It's my understanding that the Department of

Safety was required to give the Tennessean the information due to the

Freedom of Information Act. It hasn't been long since the Tennessee

published the salaries of every legislative state employee and kept it

on their website for weeks. That was quite enlightening.

Thank you for your e-mail. I hope this helps to allay some of your

concerns.

Carolyn Newman, AA to Senator Steve Southerland

-----Original Message-----

From: Elizabeth Merkel [mailto:Elizabeth.Merkel@state.tn.us]

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:53 AM

To: Steve Southerland

Subject: Re: Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit database: Revision

No

-----Original Message-----

From: "Steve Southerland"

<SEN.STEVE.SOUTHERLAND@LEGISLATURE.STATE.TN.US>

To: Merkel, Elizabeth <ELIZABETH.MERKEL@STATE.TN.US>Creation Date: 5/9

11:29 am

Subject: RE: Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit database: Revision

Can the public access your database by internet or otherwise?

-----Original Message-----

From: Elizabeth Merkel [mailto:Elizabeth.Merkel@state.tn.us]

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:21 AM

To: Steve Southerland

Subject: Re: Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit database: Revision

We have gotten a number of calls on this.

Under Freedom of Information Act rules, we had to provide our database

of permit holders to the Tennessean.

The Tennessean posted everyone on their website yesterday, but have

removed it, likely due to the number of complaints.

-----Original Message-----

From: "Steve Southerland"

<SEN.STEVE.SOUTHERLAND@LEGISLATURE.STATE.TN.US>

To: Merkel, Elizabeth <ELIZABETH.MERKEL@STATE.TN.US>Creation Date: 5/9

11:07 am

Subject: FW: Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit database: Revision

Elizabeth, have others had concerns about this?

________________________________

From: Carl Nordman

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 8:56 AM

To: Steve Southerland

Subject: Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit database: Revision

Dear Senator Southerland,

In an earlier message to you I made the statement that it was my

understanding that Tennessee police were not privy to Handgun Carry

Permit status. I have since learned that I was wrong. Police DO have

access to that information, and I believe that is a good policy. I do

however still believe that the Tennessee Handgun Carry database should

be restricted from the public.

Sincerely,

Carl

[Guest ProguninTN]

I object to my name being listed. I don't care so much about them knowing I have a gun, (as I open carry as well as conceal carry) what really gets me is that they know I have them, and with my name and address, they may consider adding me to their "rob/burglarize list".