What would go to trial in your County?

[DaveTN]

When I was a cop we had access to the law and to those that would be making the decisions on what would go to trial. We could meet with our county States Attorney and get first hand his interpretations of a given law. We also had access to the top criminal defense attorneys in the area that were usually happy to give their opinions.

One of the glaring problems I see with the HCP classes (or this forum) is that there are no representatives there from the people that will decide if your case is pursued.

I understand that there is not a lot of time in these classes to discuss all the laws dealing with firearms and the use of deadly force. So I would like to suggest the following…

Maybe we could get some groups together for a meeting in the evening or on a Saturday in our respective areas and invite some of the people involved to speak to us and answer questions. I can assure you that Prosecutors and Defense attorneys will not be giving out the same information. So maybe we could meet with both and hear both opinions.

What do you guys think?

[Fallguy]

It's not a bad idea at all.

But I'm not sure how many professionals would volunteer their time.

But isn't sort of hard to discuss what would or would not go to trial without specifics of an incident? How did y'all meetings go?

[DaveTN]

I think there are professionals that would volunteer their time if they were approached right. While they might not be real keen on posting on a forum they may be willing to have open discussions.

You can make up specific problems or questions (scenarios). Our meetings as cops went great with the States Attorneys because we got to discuss specifics of what their interpretations are. Defense attorneys are also a great source of information from a different viewpoint. They won’t discuss on going cases (they can’t if they are involved in them) but they are generally willing to discuss different scenarios in general.

I’m also not talking about having a debate with them or between guests. You ask questions and you hear what they have to say. You can then make your own judgments based on what you hear from informed personnel instead of just reading the law and making Wag’s.

I just think it’s important. I have seen a lot of people jailed because of bad information. It’s usually young people and that’s just not fair to them when they are listening to their parents who may be clueless.

[Fallguy]

It definetly would be interesting...

[fizik]

That actually sounds like a great idea, assuming you or others have the contacts to start the ball rolling.

[Guest JLowe]

Its a great idea. Here is the problem in TN. Its up to the District Attorney in each area to decide what goes to trial and what does not. They are for the most part very conservative in their interpretations of the self defense laws and almost always lean towards the person defending their selves and others. As long as they are within the HCP and self defense laws. As I tell everybody, make no statements until you have YOUR attorney present and you have been to the hospital to be medically cleared due to the stress of the situation. If you talk with your local LEO's they can almost always tell you the best defense attorneys in your area.

[Punisher84]

Its a great idea. Here is the problem in TN. Its up to the District Attorney in each area to decide what goes to trial and what does not. They are for the most part very conservative in their interpretations of the self defense laws and almost always lean towards the person defending their selves and others. As long as they are within the HCP and self defense laws. As I tell everybody, make no statements until you have YOUR attorney present and you have been to the hospital to be medically cleared due to the stress of the situation. If you talk with your local LEO's they can almost always tell you the best defense attorneys in your area.

Good answer. I see it as being a bad idea in general. The laws are the las and you decide at the time to pull the trigger or not. To much second guessing getting charged will make you hesitate and get you killed.

[midtennchip]

I think having some of the instructors (where are you, Todd) chiming in on this would be good, but as I understand it, they are not allowed to deviate very much from the state approved course outline. With that said, I do think having a more thorough discussion on the subject would be great in those classes. However, attorneys generally are NOT going to give much "advice" on a forum or in a handgun class. Why? They become targets for legal malpractice suits.

However, I would suggest to anyone interested in this subject to go get a copy of the current magazine from Guns & Ammo called the Book of Personal Defense (I found it this week on the magazine rack at Gander Mountain in Jackson). There is a wonderful article by Massad Ayoob entitled "Court Issues and Armed Citizen Self-Defense." It is only a primer, but Ayoob does provide case law on the issues (such as the warning on using handloaded rounds for self-defense). Ayoob also has a book and a video available on his website (www.ayoob.com) on these issues that are much more in-depth.

Midtennchip

Unofficial Resident Lawyer

[DaveTN]

I think having some of the instructors (where are you, Todd) chiming in on this would be good, but as I understand it, they are not allowed to deviate very much from the state approved course outline. With that said, I do think having a more thorough discussion on the subject would be great in those classes. However, attorneys generally are NOT going to give much "advice" on a forum or in a handgun class. Why? They become targets for legal malpractice suits.

I’m not suggesting they teach it. I understand there is not time. I have already heard what they have to say. Nothing against them, but they are not qualified to answer legal questions. Todd is a working Police Officer, he has had criminal law training, experience in the courts and at crime scenes and (I would guess) has access to the States Attorney’s Office. Most instructors don’t have that.

Have you been to a carry class? They have a video of a couple of attorneys discussing the use of deadly force. Have they had malpractice suits filed against them?

I’m not talking about free legal advice on someone’s case; I’m talking about an open discussion on the carry laws, use of deadly force, traffic stops, and all the other stuff that comes up. What made me think of this is some of the statements made here that are just wrong.

However.. if we couldn’t get attorneys or prosecutors to participate; the point is moot.

I knew the law where I was from. A Police in Illinois has more criminal law training than an attorney, unless that attorney specializes in criminal law. I know that’s not a popular statement to make here; but I would guess the same is true for Tennessee Officers.

When reading the Illinois law; I would sometimes need clarification or access to case law. I don’t have that in Tennessee.

It’s just an idea.

Midtennchip

Unofficial Resident Lawyer

Are you a practicing Criminal Defense Attorney?

Would you be willing to help in your area?

Good answer. I see it as being a bad idea in general. The laws are the las and you decide at the time to pull the trigger or not. To much second guessing getting charged will make you hesitate and get you killed.

Thanks for your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

Too much knowledge will never get you killed. But not enough could not only take away your very freedom but could devastate your family financially.

[Glock30Owner]

The Tennessee Firearms Association already does something similar already. They have had lawmakers, lawyers, and other speakers talk on all sorts of topics.

http://www.tfaonline.org/

[midtennchip]

Have you been to a carry class? They have a video of a couple of attorneys discussing the use of deadly force. Have they had malpractice suits filed against them?

I’m not talking about free legal advice on someone’s case; I’m talking about an open discussion on the carry laws, use of deadly force, traffic stops, and all the other stuff that comes up. What made me think of this is some of the statements made here that are just wrong.

. . .

Are you a practicing Criminal Defense Attorney?

Would you be willing to help in your area?

Dave, to answer your question, no I do not regularly practice criminal law at this time. I do stay very up-to-date on self-defense and gun laws, though (mainly for my own benefit and to help out some of my criminal defense buddies who are not "gun people"). However, your question about whether lawyers would generally engage in an "open discussion" would be the same issue for all lawyers. That is, there are ethical issues (and warnings from the Board of Professional Responsibility) in doing such things. The attorneys on that video are not taking questions and, under the ethics rules, would in no way be considered to be giving legal advice. But, I also didn't think too highly of what they had to say, either.

Some lawyers are more than willing to engage in such open forums (I go occassionally, as well), but it is a risk. The problem with such open forums is that someone will hear a lawyer say something, take it out of context or misinterpret it, and get into some trouble (my clients are known to do it from time to time). Then, that same person will blame the lawyer (either through a lawsuit or an ethical complaint -- which we are REQUIRED to answer).

I am not suggesting that your idea is wrong; quite the contrary. I like the idea. I just know most lawyers are fairly risk-adverse. But, when I do start practicing criminal law (and I suspect that may happen in the not too distant future), I think I would be willing to do it on a limited basis.

[Guest JLowe]

I will tell you this. The 2 attorneys on the HCP video have law degrees, are current TN Law Enforcement Training Academy Instructors (POST), and are former full time officers in the State of TN. Their knowledge of criminal law and the enforcement there of far exceeds most any Criminal Attorney in the State. What they had to say on the video was NOT written by them. They had to read from a script that a bunch of Civil (lawsuit) minded Attorney's wrote in order to protect them and the State from a lawsuit in which a HCP holder utilizes his firearm for self defense purposes.

In reality if you are "in fear" for your life or the life of another and use your firearm, you will have to be able to prove that fear. The evidence, combined with your statement, and the statements of witness's (if any), will be the deciding factor in which a DA will make his choice to pursue any criminal charges. Your statement will go along ways in the DA making his decision. That is why I suggest you find a competent Attorney that specializes in criminal defense and call him before you make any statements. You want that legal mind and knowledge with you so that you do not make any mistakes when you decide to give your statement. DA's and investigators know that immediate memory recall and memory recall 2-3 days later are going to be different. The later recall will have more details and sometimes will you will not say the same things as you did during your first statement. That does not make you a liar, it is your body and mind protecting you after a very stressful situation. The DA in your area will not give you a shoot, no shoot situation because that opens them up for liability. The Self Defense law in TN are fairly clear cut and are written in easy to interpret language so that you can look at them and make a determination on right and wrong. Now, does your DA look at it that way? They are not all the same. You can request a opinion for the State Attorney Generals Office and they may be willing to give you one. I would say that he has already made his decision and it is of public record, you just have to find it (maybe midtennchip knows where to look).

[DaveTN]

I will tell you this. The 2 attorneys on the HCP video have law degrees, are current TN Law Enforcement Training Academy Instructors (POST), and are former full time officers in the State of TN. Their knowledge of criminal law and the enforcement there of far exceeds most any Criminal Attorney in the State. What they had to say on the video was NOT written by them. They had to read from a script that a bunch of Civil (lawsuit) minded Attorney's wrote in order to protect them and the State from a lawsuit in which a HCP holder utilizes his firearm for self defense purposes.

With all due respect you need to offer some evidence of that. You can’t say these guys were the greatest criminal attorneys that ever lived and then turn around and say they were merely puppets reading from a script. That just doesn’t make sense.

In reality if you are "in fear" for your life or the life of another and use your firearm, you will have to be able to prove that fear. The evidence, combined with your statement, and the statements of witness's (if any), will be the deciding factor in which a DA will make his choice to pursue any criminal charges. Your statement will go along ways in the DA making his decision. That is why I suggest you find a competent Attorney that specializes in criminal defense and call him before you make any statements. You want that legal mind and knowledge with you so that you do not make any mistakes when you decide to give your statement. DA's and investigators know that immediate memory recall and memory recall 2-3 days later are going to be different. The later recall will have more details and sometimes will you will not say the same things as you did during your first statement. That does not make you a liar, it is your body and mind protecting you after a very stressful situation. The DA in your area will not give you a shoot, no shoot situation because that opens them up for liability. The Self Defense law in TN are fairly clear cut and are written in easy to interpret language so that you can look at them and make a determination on right and wrong. Now, does your DA look at it that way? They are not all the same. You can request a opinion for the State Attorney Generals Office and they may be willing to give you one. I would say that he has already made his decision and it is of public record, you just have to find it (maybe midtennchip knows where to look).

We have all offered our opinions on what the laws are and what you should do after a shooting; add yours to he list.

What your District Attorney in Anderson County may prosecute could be different than what the Rutherford or Davidson County District Attorney's would do.

I’m not saying that this discussion would be limited to the use of deadly force. Look at some of the threads here on vehicle searches; they are filled with ignorance. Then people wonder how their kids end up in jail after a traffic stop.

I don’t buy for one second that most Attorneys or representatives from the District Attorneys Office would be worried about liability of discussing the law with citizens. As citizens I think it is fair for us to ask that of them. (Not private attorneys, but those that are public officials.)

But, as I said; I’m just throwing an idea out.

[midtennchip]

You can request a opinion for the State Attorney Generals Office and they may be willing to give you one. I would say that he has already made his decision and it is of public record, you just have to find it (maybe midtennchip knows where to look).

As you stated, I do not think the statute is at all unclear. As such, I am unaware of any significant Attorney General Opinion on the subject of self-defense. The Tennessee Firearms Association maintains a list of what they consider "significant" AG Opinions at the link below:

http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law_regs/ag_opinions.asp

However, I think the question in this thread (as well as the discussions I've read in other threads) deals with the subjective aspects of the law. That is, it has been proven time and again that juries frequently ignore the "elements" of a law and go with their gut instincts. Likewise, Assistant DAs and District Attorneys use their discretion on whether to bring charges in a particular case. Therefore, I do think discussions with attorneys on their experiences in court would be very valuable. But, I do not know a single attorney that has actually had to defend a true self-defense case (other than a real criminal case in which the criminal tried to use the self-defense argument, but it was futile). Therefore, I really don't know how many attorneys in Tennessee have any real experience in this area of the law. It just comes up too infrequently.

[Punisher84]

Thanks for your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

Too much knowledge will never get you killed. But not enough could not only take away your very freedom but could devastate your family financially.

I disagree with your disagreement. Knowledge may not get you killed, but overloading your mind with the what ifs could. My point of view is this, know the law, decide what you personally can and can't live with and then decide if you need to put a gun on everyday.

There is no clear cut case. Everything is open to interpretation by lawyers, judges, and juries. I made a decision to not live my life in fear, that's why I carry a gun, train in martial arts, ride a motorcycle, etc. Whatever happens, happens. I don't want to be sued or go to jail, but when someone is pointing a screwdriver at my throat screaming they'll kill me, I don't want to hesitate either.

[Guest JLowe]

With all due respect you need to offer some evidence of that. You can’t say these guys were the greatest criminal attorneys that ever lived and then turn around and say they were merely puppets reading from a script. That just doesn’t make sense.

We have all offered our opinions on what the laws are and what you should do after a shooting; add yours to he list.

What your District Attorney in Anderson County may prosecute could be different than what the Rutherford or Davidson County District Attorney's would do.

I’m not saying that this discussion would be limited to the use of deadly force. Look at some of the threads here on vehicle searches; they are filled with ignorance. Then people wonder how their kids end up in jail after a traffic stop.

I don’t buy for one second that most Attorneys or representatives from the District Attorneys Office would be worried about liability of discussing the law with citizens. As citizens I think it is fair for us to ask that of them. (Not private attorneys, but those that are public officials.)

But, as I said; I’m just throwing an idea out.

I have seen the video that is used now, and its much better than the last one they used. I know both of the Instructors and their points of view on self defense and the defense of others. They are some of the most informed attorneys that I know when it comes to the criminal aspects of the law. I have not been through classes that they taught, but after a decade of law enforcement, I know several "high end" defense attorneys as well. My opinion may be biased, but when I have a question they have always answered it.

As far as what your local DA will and will not prosecute, I have no idea. You are right that in different areas different things will go to trial. But, all of the DAs have to follow the guidelines set down by the States Attorney Generals Office.

I understand that you would like a clear cut answer, but its not going to happen beyond "follow within the law". Your local DA may be willing to have an open forum discussion and that would be great. I would contact his office and ask.

And BTW I did not say they were the ''greatest criminal attorneys that ever lived". They are very knowledgeable because they teach criminal law and other aspects of law enforcement at the State Police Academy. They deal with it on a daily basis and therefore have a more complete understanding than most others. But, they are employees of the state, which produced the video. So, they are not allowed to give their full opinions, but what the STATE tells them to. The video you saw was produced with CIVIL LIABILITY in mind. So, they can't just come out and say in laymen terms what they would like to.