HB0320 (Matheny): HCP holders privileges same as off-duty LEO

[JohnC]

I'll send some letters out tonight. Hope this gets passed!


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[300winmag]

If there is one bill to pass this year, this is the one that would benefit us the most.  I'd like constitutional carry too, but i'd take carrying on a permit anywhere VS constitutional carry and a bunch of off limits places.  Improving the system for the handgun carry permits is an easier goal.

[Guest StorminMormon]

In regards to Bedford and Rutherford county, I know Bedford has volunteer deputies.... Maybe that has something to do with it?

[300winmag]

I think this bill is a good bill and has a decent chance of getting past the committees for the following reasons WITH proper support from NRA:

 

1.  It is a simple and clean bill that fixes all the off limits (parks, school property, no guns signs) locations for people with handgun carry permits.  If someone is quiet and keeps his handgun concealed, he is legal and no one will know.  If a property owner notices the gun, the property owner can just ask the permit holder to leave.  It is a good balance between property rights VS gun rights.  No one can claim that guns are being forced on them because as of now, any property owner can ask an off duty LEO to leave the gun in the car. 

2.  Unless there is a lot of dishonesty, there is no way a fiscal note can be attached to the bill, throwing it in that finance committee to be killed.  The open carry, the TICS exemption, and anything reducing or eliminating handgun carry permits will get the finance attachments and kill the bills.  It stinks but that is what the politicians pull.  You have to figure out how to work around that with something that doesn't affect money the state gets off permits.

3. It will not attract the media attention like the constitutional carry or open carry bills.  There is a chance it could fly under the radar like the car carry bill did last year when the open carry bill attracted all the bad press.

 

If the bill gets a floor vote, most of the politicians will not vote against it because they want the NRA vote.

[Hozzie]

Hozzie, can I steal use your email text?

Sure, have at it.

[Worriedman]

Would like to get a read on LE's take on this bill.  After some study, it does not do a whole lot, "off duty" officer is basically a citizen, granted not a felon if they are on the force, but not sure this is what I thought it was to start with. 

I will be asking Sheriffs I know what they think.

[GKar]

I've tried to better understand it since it appeared, and to date, I'm not seeing any real significant advances...seems more of a sound bite bill than anything.  I'd like to see a cogent explanation of the benefits - actually, I'd like to see what the sponsors SAY will be the benefits, but to date, no one has responded to my inquiries.

[Oh Shoot]

I've tried to better understand it since it appeared, and to date, I'm not seeing any real significant advances...seems more of a sound bite bill than anything.  I'd like to see a cogent explanation of the benefits - actually, I'd like to see what the sponsors SAY will be the benefits, but to date, no one has responded to my inquiries.

 

So, they'd just leave all the mess as written in the various other statutes? Meaning, since this bill does not specifically mention exempting any of the others, we'd have nice muddled competing statutes as usual?

 

- OS

[Pain103]

 I would be happy to see it get passed. Too many laws already that get people confused about where and when they can carry. Just say if you have a HCP you can carry everywhere except courtroom with a judicial proceeding in session. Thats pretty clear cut and you know they are not going to do away with that section. Remove all other sections about signage and schools. Really the only two things I see as a bonus carrying as LEO off duty is carry on to school grounds and carrying past signs. The principal and secretary already know who I am and were instructed the first visit that at all times I am armed but it will be concealed and they were happy about it. Never had this happen but if I am somewhere that knows I am armed off duty and they wish me to disarm or leave I will leave no fuss they own the property not me. I can spend what little bit of money I was going to spend somewhere else.

[300winmag]

This is an excellent bill.  You'd be crazy to not want this to pass VS all the other bills that are floating out there.  Prison guards, full time LEO, reserve LEO all carry under 39-17-1350 and can carry anywhere legally in TN when off duty.

 

An off duty LEO in TN can carry legally in any parks, any posted properties, or school property without fear of criminal prosecution.  Read 39-17-1350 for info on off duty carry.  The only catches are that off duty LEO's cannot be drinking while carrying, not intoxicated, and must notify the principal at a K-12 school that he is carrying when he enters the school.  That is a HUGE improvement over what we have now with the park problems, school property felony, and getting fined over signs.

 

 

(a) Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, any law enforcement officer may carry firearms at all times and in all places within Tennessee, on-duty or off-duty, regardless of the officer's regular duty hours or assignments, except as provided by subsection (c), federal law, lawful orders of court or the written directives of the executive supervisor of the employing agency.

( B) The authority conferred by this section is expressly intended to and shall supersede restrictions placed upon law enforcement officers' authority to carry firearms by other sections within this part.  (this strikes out the other non carry areas of the TCA)

(c) The authority conferred by this section shall not extend to a law enforcement officer:

   (1) Who is not engaged in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer and carries a firearm onto school grounds or inside a school building during regular school hours unless the officer immediately informs the principal that the officer will be present on school grounds or inside the school building and in possession of a firearm. If the principal is unavailable, the notice may be given to an appropriate administrative staff person in the principal's office;

   (2) Who is consuming beer or an alcoholic beverage or who is under the influence of beer, an alcoholic beverage, or a controlled substance or controlled substance analogue; or

   (3) Who is not engaged in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer while attending a judicial proceeding.

Edited February 16, 2015 by 300winmag

[chances R]

It is a good bill until the OC crowd decides to go to school.

[Radlink54]

Thank you Hozzie for a great template. I sent a version to my representative Charles Sargent ( not gun friendly I am told) and my senator Jack Johnson ( unsure).

 

I agree that this would be a somewhat round about defense to an attempted prosecution past posting by an overzealous property owner or local LEO that did not provide an option to leave the premises first.

 

It is not as good as a front on revision specific to HCP citizens, but if it could pass, it would sure improve the current situation. I am all for respecting property rights and obeying signage, but I think it is completely unreasonable to hold law abiding HCP citizens subject to criminal penalty for either unintentional carriage past a legitimate posting, or intentional carriage past some of the inconsistent, nearly invisible signs that are present due to an inadequate posting requirement in this state that does not clearly define posting.

 

I work out at the Y's in Williamson county many times each week.  The signage they have should be the legal standard, not some half ass tiny gun with a slash.  And even with that level of signage, any unintentional breach should get an option to leave the premises immediately.  Not receive a certain criminal offense.

 

I am 60 years old.  I can't defend my self with just my physical skills like I might have done 30 years ago.  Further, our country is facing a level of evil and terror that is unlike what we faced when I was a boy.  Collective armed citizens were never going to stop ICBM's.  But the new asymmetric lone wolf terrorism that is coming to a place near to you and me soon, can be stopped or mitigated by citizens in the right place at the right time.  Even if you don't believe you should respond except to protect your self or loved ones, it may well be that situation which indeed you will be facing.  You may be in the wrong place at the wrong time while some other target is engaged. 

 

So this state needs to get its act together and fully support the legal exercise of our 2nd amendment rights.  If everyone on this forum sent a copy of Hozzie's letter to their rep and senator might we move the needle?

[300winmag]

Chances,

 

I worry about more political capital being placed on the open carry w/o permit bills VS a good bill like this that fix all the off limits places.  I think i'd rather pay 50 bucks for my handgun carry permit and carry anywhere legally than open carry w/o a permit at Wal Mart.  The open carry bills do not fix the school issues, parks, or the no gun signs that we can get fined for.  In an ideal world, you would be able to open carry anywhere without worry, but in reality it just isn't going to happen.   

[chances R]

I agree with you. I support the bill and will contact my reps. Just saying' about the OC being a fly in the ointment.

[Worriedman]

The bill talks about "permit issued pursuant to this section", would this void reciprocity agreements with other States as their permits are not issued under 1351?

 

[Worriedman]

Second consideration, will there have to be a court case to decide if TN Judges think 1309 (schools), 1310 (school defenses), 1313 (parking lots on schools) and 1311 (parks) bills would be effectively nullified under the bill's auspices.  I think they might be, but only if a court concluded that the amendment of 1350 was done with the specific intent of effectively voiding those statutes relative to 1351 permit holders.  Who takes that case to get it heard?

[Oh Shoot]

Second consideration, will there have to be a court case to decide if TN Judges think 1309 (schools), 1310 (school defenses), 1313 (parking lots on schools) and 1311 (parks) bills would be effectively nullified under the bill's auspices.  I think they might be, but only if a court concluded that the amendment of 1350 was done with the specific intent of effectively voiding those statutes relative to 1351 permit holders.  Who takes that case to get it heard?

 

That was my comment. Leaving the other statutes in place verbatim, without any mention of them in this bill as being superseded, is gray even beyond the traditional gray of TN firearm law.

 

Also, you make excellent point regarding permit holders from other states, bill makes that as gray as possible also.

 

- OS

Edited February 16, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[GKar]

The bill talks about "permit issued pursuant to this section", would this void reciprocity agreements with other States as their permits are not issued under 1351?

 

 I specifically asked about this provision, too.  1351(b) only speaks to permits issued to Tennessee residents: my first thought is that this bill creates two different sets of rules - one for those with TN-issued HCPs, and another for those with permits issued by other states but yet recognized by reciprocity.  That's why I want to hear from the Sponsors (Bailey and Matheny) to see what they think the bill does.  We may have to wait for the first committee hearings to find out - if even then.

[JayC]

39-17-1351r1 States that any permit from another state shall be treated as if it was issued by the state of TN.  I don't think it would create a double standard.

 

 

 

 I specifically asked about this provision, too.  1351( B) only speaks to permits issued to Tennessee residents: my first thought is that this bill creates two different sets of rules - one for those with TN-issued HCPs, and another for those with permits issued by other states but yet recognized by reciprocity.  That's why I want to hear from the Sponsors (Bailey and Matheny) to see what they think the bill does.  We may have to wait for the first committee hearings to find out - if even then.

[GKar]

Problem being, the proposed legislation is quite specific to 1351 ( b ) only.  I would agree if it also cross-referenced 1351 ( r ) ( 1 ) .  SNAFUS have resulted from such lack of detail before.  And THAT's the reason to bring it up to the sponsors - whose email replies, it seems, must be stuck in the snow...

[chances R]

I just received a reply from Sen. Richard Briggs. He supports the bill and added that he generally supports 2nd Amendment issues.

[Worriedman]

Spoke with three different Sheriffs about this bill today, they say it is DOA as far as they are concerned.  These are three that have their heads on straight too, Sheriff's Association is out against it.  Main concern is Billy Bob would think he is off duty LE...

That carries a lot of weight in LP.  Legislators might get caught drinking and driving with a gun in their car, they (legislators) will do as the Association wishes.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Worriedman

[GKar]

Yep.  That also makes it easy fodder for the media to twist the bill, much akin to the 'guns-in-bars' smear campaign.  And given the LP's outright fear of the media these days, its easy to see why they would just let this one die a nice quiet death.  I'll be surprised if it even gets to its first committee hearing.

[300winmag]

What bill will the Sheriff's Association get behind that may help people with handgun carry permit?  Will the association get behind any park bill?

[Worriedman]

What bill will the Sheriff's Association get behind that may help people with handgun carry permit?  Will the association get behind any park bill?

I do not think they are going to be against Goins' Bill (HB 0274), but will find out for sure.