Coyote Rifleworks trust- Too good to be true?

[KKing]

Let me start by saying I'm new to the NFA world. I know more about the can's and can'ts (laws) than I do about setting up a trust and getting the ball rolling. From the reading I have done both here and on other sites, it would appear a trust is the way to go if a person wants to get into NFA items. I also know that once I get started I'm not likely to stop with just one NFA item. That said, I came across this business Coyote Rifleworks offering trusts for $95. The old saying "if it seems too good to be true..." comes to mind, but what would be the difference in a solid trust and not? I know to some of you this is elementary, but I'd appreciate your input.

Link to their site...
http://www.coyoterifleworks.com/nfa-trust/ Edited January 19, 2015 by KKing

[KKing]

And the cost really is insignificant when you consider the cost of the NFA items you are likely to purchase. Almost any decent suppressor will cost more than the trust. And the cost of the trust is a lot cheaper than the cost to bond you out if your trust is invalid and you are arrested. Then the cost of attorney fees to defend you if you are arrested.

You're right, I know it. It's not really the dollar factor I don't guess. I just wondered what the deal was with the low price. Guess I really need to do some digging. Edited January 19, 2015 by KKing

[TGO David]

Go with Chip Cain or John Wall here on TGO.  Both are attorneys and are excellent at what they do.

[KKing]

I guess I answered my own question, with y'all's guidance. This is the response I got from them.


To me that's like saying "No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night". Ok, maybe that was harsh, but it doesn't exactly instill confidence.

Edited January 19, 2015 by KKing

[KKing]

I sent Chip a message through his site, I wasn't sure how often he logs in here. Now to make my wife understand all of this   :surrender:

[TGO David]

I'd like to see the waiver that they have you sign when they sell you a copy.  If they don't have one, they are seriously setting themselves up to be sued if one of their customers botches their own paperwork and gets slapped down by the Government.

[Ron Padilla]

I have not been willing to chime in when this subject comes up, in my earlier days I had ventured in to college with the desire to persue a Juris doctorate degree, but fell short of that with a masters, but while doing that I had performed some voluntary work at the Pasadena superior court in California, what I discovered is that each state has their own way of doing things.  Each state will have their own way of pleading cases, and will will use what is called pleading paper or forms.  With that being said, alot of the work comes down to boiler plate documents that can be used to prepare a pleading in a case, like a devorce, seperation, child custody, etc.  Like mentioned above the people that are selling the boiler plate documents cannot give legal advice or chance going to jail. 

 

However, it has been done for years in many states, where a person can prepare their own documents for a particular situation, most often called in pro per.  But with this situation it is slightly different, however like mentioned above you take the chance of someone some where saying it isnt right, just like all the minutia that has taken place with the Sig brace, one day its legal, one day it's not.  Even in this state it probably comes down to the fact that the documents have been refined to the point of being correct, and are even provided to attornies in a software package, that can be purchased by begining, fresh new lawyers so they can hit the ground running, and selling their lip service to the buying public, but the caveat is, buyer beware.  I have spoken with some people here in Ten that have used some of these services and have been successful, but again it is your choice to spend some, or less money, depending on your own evaluation of your set of skills to fill them out, use a boiler plate, or use a person with a juris doctorate degree and have their paralegal fill them out, then spend a few minutes with the attorney.

 

JMOO

 

Ron

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ron Padilla

[Ron Padilla]

After writting the above ^^^ I had a senior moment, and thought about the fact that if you live near a large city, you should be able to find a legal library there, and they might have a boiler plate living trust that you can photo copy and use.  Again I came from Cali and if a person was so driven then they could go and find one and fill it out.  Or buy a book that has wills, trusts, and that sort of thing and again do it yourself, you might have to haveit notarized once completed again just some rambling and old age thinking out load and my own rediculas opinion. But again that is what you pay the big bucks to the attorney for.  :)

[midtennchip]

After writting the above ^^^ I had a senior moment, and thought about the fact that if you live near a large city, you should be able to find a legal library there, and they might have a boiler plate living trust that you can photo copy and use.  Again I came from Cali and if a person was so driven then they could go and find one and fill it out.  Or buy a book that has wills, trusts, and that sort of thing and again do it yourself, you might have to haveit notarized once completed again just some rambling and old age thinking out load and my own rediculas opinion. But again that is what you pay the big bucks to the attorney for.  :)

 

Ron, no offense intended here.  But PLEASE don't just find a trust book or basic trust and use it for NFA purposes.  That is just asking for problems.  NFA trusts (if done correctly) have provisions that do not exist in many boilerplate forms (and would not be appropriate for many trusts that don't hold NFA items).  NFA items have very specific issues that don't exist when a trust holds real estate, stocks, bonds, etc.

 

Whether someone wants to use a trust service like the OP asked about or use an attorney, I understand the thought.  But there is a HUGE difference between an individual filing a pro se pleading in court versus completing a trust.  If a pro se litigant files something inappropriately or incorrectly, the court will generally give that person a chance to fix the problem and/or get a lawyer.  With a trust, the damage is already done before anyone ever points out the problem.  In the case of NFA trusts, it could easily be a federal criminal mistake.

[Ron Padilla]

None taken, that is why I did add the caveat emptor in the passage, I would however trust my own research over that of someone else, to drive my decision process in what route to take in the end.  :) 

[KKing]

Just as an update, it was literally within an hour of contacting Chip that he got back to me. I am going to try and get in on his holiday special.

Thank you Mr. Cain for your time, and I like forward to working with you. Edited January 20, 2015 by KKing

[Wingshooter]

Just as an update, it was literally within an hour of contacting Chip that he got back to me. I am going to try and get in on his holiday special.
Thank you Mr. Cain for your time, and I like forward to working with you.

:up:

Holiday special you say? I have been kicking around the idea of a suppressor forever. I want a trust because I know there no way I'll be able to stop with just a suppressor :) I guess I'll make a call, too.

[Ron Padilla]

I hope that he quoted 250.00 or less for his services, as there are other attornies in the Nasville area that will do the paperwork for 250.00. there is one here in clarksville as well that does them for 250.00 so it is also wise to shop around for price to get the best deal you can if money is tight if wanting to do a trust for weapons, and you should look into getting it done soon as there is rumor that on the horizon beneficiaries are going to need finger print cards, like they are now for none trust form 1's

[TGO David]

I hope that he quoted 250.00 or less for his services, as there are other attornies in the Nasville area that will do the paperwork for 250.00. there is one here in clarksville as well that does them for 250.00 so it is also wise to shop around for price to get the best deal you can if money is tight if wanting to do a trust for weapons, and you should look into getting it done soon as there is rumor that on the horizon beneficiaries are going to need finger print cards, like they are now for none trust form 1's

 

Ron, Chip Cain and John Wall are both respected attorneys and are Vendor partners here on TGO.  They both charge reasonable rates and their work is worth their fees. Beyond that, they support this site and make it possible for you to be here enjoying it.

 

I thought we had put to bed the idea that economy is the key when doing a trust.  You get what you pay for, and people who are doing NFA items generally are not operating under "money is tight" situations.

[KKing]

I thought we had put to bed the idea that economy is the key when doing a trust. You get what you pay for, and people who are doing NFA items generally are not operating under "money is tight" situations.

Have to agree. If I was operating under a "money is tight" circumstance I wouldn't be entertaining this idea at all. I suppose one could be mislead by my original post in thinking so, but I was more curious than anything.

I have just reached the point where I have built/bought all the weapons I want for the moment and I think instead of acquiring more weapons it would be fun to make some of them shorter and more quiet.

[swim615]

Chip for the win. Great to work with and quite painless. Always like to support those that support TGO.

[FightingSheepDog]

Let me tell y'all the TRUTH about Coyote RifleWorks...

Coyote's claim to fame is that they do managed hog hunts in Texas. They got tired of waiting 30 minutes inbetween kills because of the report from the rifles they used. They had to wait for the hogs to come back after they kept getting scared away.

So they went to get suppressors and local law enforcement wouldn't sign off on the application.

They went to an attorney, paid a LOT of money, and had them create an NFA trust.

Then they realized that there were people across the nation that were in the same situation - that local law enforcement wouldn't sign off, or it took forever to hear back from the ATF, or that there are severe repercussions if you pass away as the owner of an NFA item.

So they went back to the attorney and paid a very handsome fee to have the trust accepted in all 50 states.

Last year, they did almost 1500 trusts with a 100% acceptance rate from the ATF with average acceptance time from the ATF running approximately 48 days.

How do I know so much about Coyote and their trusts? Because we are the only store in the entire nation with access to the backend of their website. As in, you can come into our store, ask any questions, leave with a printed copy and email copy of the trusts.

Believe me, these folks are VERY legit. We're happy to answer any and all questions. Whatever we can't answer, we can get the answer for. Hope this helps answer your questions.

[btq96r]

Let me tell y'all the TRUTH about Coyote RifleWorks...

They went to an attorney, paid a LOT of money, and had them create an NFA trust.

Then they realized that there were people across the nation that were in the same situation - that local law enforcement wouldn't sign off, or it took forever to hear back from the ATF, or that there are severe repercussions if you pass away as the owner of an NFA item.

So they went back to the attorney and paid a very handsome fee to have the trust accepted in all 50 states.

Last year, they did almost 1500 trusts with a 100% acceptance rate from the ATF with average acceptance time from the ATF running approximately 48 days.

How do I know so much about Coyote and their trusts? Because we are the only store in the entire nation with access to the backend of their website. As in, you can come into our store, ask any questions, leave with a printed copy and email copy of the trusts.

Believe me, these folks are VERY legit. We're happy to answer any and all questions. Whatever we can't answer, we can get the answer for. Hope this helps answer your questions.

 

Okay, but they flat out admitted that to KKing that they aren't lawyers.  And that raises all kinds of questions. 

 

Will the attorney who drafted their trust template stand by the work if something comes to pass?  Coyote can't, they aren't lawyers.  Those of us who used the TGO venders that offer trust services have that benefit.

 

Do those who get a trust through Coyote have an attorney-client relationship with anybody?  Doubt it since the folks at Coyote aren't lawyers.  I have an attorney-client relationship (and all the legal protections therein) with John Wells.  Ditto for the folks who used Chip Cain.

 

Finally, how well versed are Coyote's lawyers in Tennessee law?  My trust attorney is a member of the Tennessee Bar Association.  How about Coyote's?  Is that even a valid question since we don't know how far their services extend beyond acquiring a template of a trust?

 

These are the things I sought out a professional and paid the extra bit of money for.

Edited January 26, 2015 by btq96r

[Ron Padilla]

As much as I would like to ba able to support one of the vendors here I cannot due to my level of income, so when the time comes for me to do a trust I most likely will go with coyote rifle works unless one of the 2 gentlemen here would be willing to do some probono work. I spent several minutes on the phone with the gentilman from coyote on Thursday evening discussing the whole situation that had been discussed here as well as the same exact type of conversations that has and will go on, on other boards. He does indicated that in no uncertain terms does not give leagal advice, they are attemping to reach all those that are in a situation just like myself that have to watch every penny that comes in from our sources of income, and in my case it is Social Security Disability income. out of my income I have a need to cover all of my meds food rent and other needed necessities, I dont ask for nor do I qualify for any other type of assistance. Yet that doesnt mean that I dont like to go out and shoot I reload all my own ammo and always look for the best price I can get and If it isnt from david here on the board I look till I can find a better deal. Again I am not opposed to paying for premium service when I can afford it. I was no where ready to retire when I was forced to persue SSDI when I did, and it is tough going from making a month to what I used to make in a week.

Now I hope that this entry does not pee in anyones wheaties, but not everyone can go out and afford the attorney regardless of how cheap the services might cost, in fact while I was out this weekend I was glancing around to see if I could find a copy of will maker that might cost me less and i would be going that route to prepare the documents myself, the people at coyote again saw a need for a service that would allow people like myself to be able to reach the same dream or need of having a trust at cost that could meet the needs, particularly in my case I suffer from extreem loos of hear in my left ear and considerable loss in my right ear, all related to military service but the V.A. says it is not signficant enough to warnt anything above a zero rating. I have no doulbt have said more than I should have and have no intentions of being diparaging to anyone on this board, JMHO. Thanks Edited January 26, 2015 by Ron Padilla

[TGO David]

If you don't have the money to do a trust the safe way, do you have the money to keep yourself out of prison if it turns out your trust wasn't worth the paper it was written on?

[E4 No More]

I thought that they were doing away with the NFA Trust "loophole" anyways. That's why I didn't pursue it with Chip.

[Lumber_Jack]

I thought that they were doing away with the NFA Trust "loophole" anyways. That's why I didn't pursue it with Chip.

No, lots of speculation that 41p was going to require LEO signature and fingerprint, but the more time that goes by the less likely I feel it would be enacted.

They've actually set a timetable to put Form 4s back on the efile system. I can't imagine that fingerprints are part of the system.

[E4 No More]

No, lots of speculation that 41p was going to require LEO signature and fingerprint, but the more time that goes by the less likely I feel it would be enacted.

They've actually set a timetable to put Form 4s back on the efile system. I can't imagine that fingerprints are part of the system.

Thanks, LJ!

[btq96r]

If you have the money to buy anything covered under NFA laws, you more than likely have the money to have a trust set up by one of our resident attorneys. If there is truly no more money left for their services after accounting for your new firearm or can, then your short and long range ammo forecasts aren't looking too good, and your NFA firearm isn't going to get much use.

[Ron Padilla]

I never said I would buy an nfa item, however I might be able to spend a FEW bucks each Month, to buy the parts, to build an nfa item that would need to have a serial number in order for it to be legal. As I have mentioned in another thread it may take me months to build an AR pistol. And if all the hoopla about a arm brace continues I may have a need to make it an sbr, then I would have to scrounge the cash to pay the 200.00. But I think that this whole converstaion has taken a twist that it shouldnt, the idea is that there are options out there for a person to take if one so chooses, I understand that the lawyers help keep this site going and am thankfull for that. I also understand that they are not going to like the fact that there are companies that are selling a product that interfers with their bottom line. There is enough info on the internet and outernet to be able determine if what is being sold is valid. If a person wanted to picky they might even want to know what law school these people went to. but again that is not the focus of this thread, the original question was about the trust that rifle works sells. There are hundreds out there if a person searches for it, that also come with an attorney if needed, and there is. They question has been answered maybe not to the liking of some but answered, and again it comes down to economics of what one can afford, os it is up to each person to determine what is best for them without hate, more engery should be spent thinking about the jake booted thugs, or the training sell in Dover.