NRA 2015 Annual Convention Nashville

[eRay]

You may all be missing the point. crazy as things are nowdays, the NRA may be posting the building for their convention. Crazier things have happened.

[monkeylizard]

Bellevue Park, which use to be Bellevue State Park, until Metro took over managing the property...  but the state didn't transfer ownership it seems.

 

Ah...aka Red Caboose Park. According to the Metro Planning Commission's property map, it's owned by Metro and has been since 1958* . Do you know otherwise?

http://maps.nashville.gov/propertykiva/site/main.htm

Parcel ID 14200004300

 

 

 

*Which is not technically possible since Metro didn't exist until 1963. I assume all holdings of Nashville and the absorbed townships simply became Metro property.

[BigK]

Yesterday I emailed the NRA asking if they have booked OUR annual meeting at a venue that refuses to allow us to bear arms.

 

Today I received their response: "According to TN State Law, concealed carry is not permitted in the Music City Center during the 2015 Annual Meetings and Exhibits."

 

I ain't even mad at the convention center or whatever laws are/aren't applicable...I AM, however, furious at the NRA for knowingly choosing a venue that doesn't allow their members to practice the ONE SINGLE RIGHT that they were created to protect.

[JayC]

Different park...  

 

ParcelID: 14100007400

 

Here is a link to Google Maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0754152,-86.9605372,17z

 

Link to the Metro parks page:

http://maps.nashville.gov/NashvilleParksFinder/default.htm?parkID=169

 

As you can see, the state owns the land, but Metro runs it.  39-17-1311d seems to require the state legislature to approve any posting under 39-17-1311 since it's owned by the state, not Metro Nashville.

 

My guess is if we started digging, there are going to be LOTS of other parks that have these types of problems, and make posting them under 39-17-1311 difficult or impossible.

 

Ah...aka Red Caboose Park. According to the Metro Planning Commission's property map, it's owned by Metro and has been since 1958* . Do you know otherwise?

http://maps.nashville.gov/propertykiva/site/main.htm

Parcel ID 14200004300

 

 

 

*Which is not technically possible since Metro didn't exist until 1963. I assume all holdings of Nashville and the absorbed townships simply became Metro property.

 

[JayC]

Start with 39-17-1359f:

 This section shall not apply to the grounds of any public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. The carrying of firearms in those areas shall be governed by § 39-17-1311.

 

So lets hop over to 39-17-1311a

 

 It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any weapon prohibited by § 39-17-1302(a), not used solely for instructional, display or sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in or on the grounds of any public park, playground, civic center or other building facility, area or property owned, used or operated by any municipal, county or state government, or instrumentality thereof, for recreational purposes.

 

39-17-1311b1 provides a list of people not impacted by 39-17-1311a, we're interested in 39-17-1311b1H

 

 Persons possessing a handgun, who are authorized to carry the handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351, while within or on a public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof, except as otherwise provided in subsection (d);

 

So buildings on property used for civic center's or 'recreational purposes' can't be posted via 39-17-1359, they must be posted via 39-17-1311 and that only works if the all the legislative bodies who own or operate the 'park' in question approve the ban 39-17-1311d.

 

 

Explain how any building, private, city, county, or state, or combination thereof, can't be posted under 1359?

 

- OS

[monkeylizard]

Different park...  

 

ParcelID: 14100007400

 

Here is a link to Google Maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0754152,-86.9605372,17z

 

Link to the Metro parks page:

http://maps.nashville.gov/NashvilleParksFinder/default.htm?parkID=169

 

As you can see, the state owns the land, but Metro runs it.  39-17-1311d seems to require the state legislature to approve any posting under 39-17-1311 since it's owned by the state, not Metro Nashville.

 

My guess is if we started digging, there are going to be LOTS of other parks that have these types of problems, and make posting them under 39-17-1311 difficult or impossible.

 

Interesting. I see my confusion on the names though. Metro calls that Harpeth River Park and calls red caboose park Bellevue Park. The tag on Google Maps has the Harpeth River Park as Bellevue Park.

 

Does anyone know how greenways work? Metro posts theirs, but is the property actually Metro's? The Bellevue greenway runs along the Harpeth River and more or less in the backyards of several homes. The big hayfield it loops around is owned by the Brandsteter estate, and presumably they own(ed) the land the walking path is on too. When the paths are built, is the land under it taken via eminent domain or does it remain the original owner's property and treated more like an easement?

[Oh Shoot]

So buildings on property used for civic center's or 'recreational purposes' can't be posted via 39-17-1359, they must be posted via 39-17-1311 and that only works if the all the legislative bodies who own or operate the 'park' in question approve the ban 39-17-1311d.

 

Well, only flaw with that argument is that the venue under question is not a " public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place". 

 

I find it significant that "civic center" or "recreational building" or whatever was omitted from that exception. Whether that was by design or accident in the statute's formation, couldn't say, but that building is no more of a "public place" than any other business or city/county/state building that would have to be posted under 1359, and I don't see that the exception would be judged to apply.

 

- OS

Edited January 15, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

Somebody would have to go track down the city councils (or metro parks) approval of each greenway and see exactly how the land for the greenway was approved.  My bet is nobody at the park department could tell you one way or another.  You'd have to go back and read a bunch of meeting minutes to find out ;)

 

Interesting. I see my confusion on the names though. Metro calls that Harpeth River Park and calls red caboose park Bellevue Park. The tag on Google Maps has the Harpeth River Park as Bellevue Park.

 

Does anyone know how greenways work? Metro posts theirs, but is the property actually Metro's? The Bellevue greenway runs along the Harpeth River and more or less in the backyards of several homes. The big hayfield it loops around is owned by the Brandsteter estate, and presumably they own(ed) the land the walking path is on too. When the paths are built, is the land under it taken via eminent domain or does it remain the original owner's property and treated more like an easement?

[JayC]

I was only commenting on why the AG released a letter stating the convention center wasn't covered under 1311, because if it was ever determined to be covered under 1311, because the state is part owner, it would prohibit posting via 1359, and via 1311.

 

I'm not trying to say it is or isn't a civic center or other recreational building... that probably came up, because to the best of my recollection the council vote on the Music City Convention Center may have mentioned the words civic center for use by the public as well as other things ;)

 

My point is, 39-17-1311 is an often overlooked law, lots more stuff fall into it other than swing sets and walking trails...  plus often folks running the parks departments don't even realize they may share ownership with another 'legislative body' and therefore can't legally post under 1311.

 

And yet again is another argument for doing away with the opt-out for 1311 altogether...

 

Well, only flaw with that argument is that the venue under question is not a " public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place". 

 

I find it significant that "civic center" or "recreational building" or whatever was omitted from that exception. Whether that was by design or accident in the statute's formation, couldn't say, but that building is no more of a "public place" than any other business or city/county/state building that would have to be posted under 1359, and I don't see that the exception would be judged to apply.

 

- OS

 

[spclopr8tr]

"I sent an email to the Music City Center asking if this was the case with them and got this response..........

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding the NRA event. The State of TN 2009 Public Acts, Chapter 428 prohibits the carrying of weapons in Public parks and civic centers. In addition any weapon purchased during the show may not be carried out but has to be shipped. I hope that this will not discourage you from attending as it is a fantastic event and Nashville is a great place to visit. 

Thank you,

Bill 

Bill Facella

Director of Event Services 

Music City Center"

 

This is an email that someone had received in response of the question regarding carry at the NRA convention.   Obviously, this Bill that's in charge has no idea what he is talking about.

 

I've seen this email from multiple people.  This is the music city centers stance, and it is based on the wrong law.  They are trying to lie about the law in order to say we can't carry.  

 

As far as I can see the NRA is not challenging it either.  Surely someone will research this and figure it out.  

 

 

The quote from the Director of Event Services was quoted from Defensive Carry last June. In subsequent threads, one of the forum members called the director and posted this on 15 July:

 

"I just got off the phone with the Director of Event Services for the Nashville Music City Center.

It seems there's been a change of heart and legal carry will now be allowed at the 2015 NRA National Meeting.

Seems there was some push back from legal carriers like you and I. I wonder how much credit, if any, I'm entitled to.

Bill did say to make sure to check your "portability", I'm assuming he meant reciprocity."

 

I have seen nothing definitive on the NRA meeting website, or any other site for that matter. So it appears between 2 June and 15 July the director reconsidered his original email response, but again, nothing in writing that appears definitive.

 

Edited January 23, 2015 by spclopr8tr

[spclopr8tr]

Response received from Music City Center:

 

 

FW: NRA Convention Firearms Policy From: Putman, Elisa (Music City Center) (Music City Center) <Elisa.Putman@nashvillemcc.com> To: xxxxxxxxxx Cc: Lehn, Bob (Music City Center) (Music City Center) <Bob.Lehn@nashvillemcc.com> Date: Fri, Jan 23, 2015 10:42 am

 

Good morning Mr. xxxxxxxxx and thank you for your inquiry.

The Music City Center has leased the entire facility to the NRA convention in April.  Under these terms, NRA may determine what they wish to allow or not allow.  We would recommend you reach out to them for any clarification you may need.

We and the city look forward to hosting you and the thousands of other NRA members. 

Sincerely,

 

Elisa “Putt” Putman

Sr. VP and Chief Operations Officer

                             

Music City Center | Nashville Convention Center

201 Fifth Avenue South | Nashville | TN | 37203

P:615-401-1450 | F:615-401-1482

elisa.putman@nashvillemcc.com

www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com 

 

 

 

I have forwarded this "pass of the buck" to the NRA and will post a response when received. This is clearly a change in policy from their position last June. 

 

I would find it hard to believe the NRA would not offer the same concealed carry policy as conducted last year in Indianapolis.

[TGO David]

NRA should pick another venue if that is the case that people cannot legally carry.  Bad choice on NRA's part.

 

You should host the NRA convention at your house.  I assume it's large enough?

[spclopr8tr]

I received a response from the NRA regarding the legal carry of firearms at the NRA National Meeting at Music City Center. Obviously this does not apply to the Jeff Foxworthy/Alan Jackson concert at Bridgestone Arena.  Good news, but I wish they had also responded to my suggestion to post this policy to the meeting web site.

 

From: AMResponse@nrahq.org
To: xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/30/2015 2:59:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: RE: National Meeting Concealed Carry Policy


Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your email. During the 2015 NRA Annual Meeting & Exhibits, lawfully carried firearms will be permitted in the Music City Center with the proper license in accordance with Tennessee law. Bridgestone Arena prohibits the possession of firearms. When carrying your firearm, remember to follow all federal, state and local laws.

Have a great day,
NRA Shows and Exhibits Staff

 

[dawgdoc]

So based on what Putman said in that last email, he indicates that a private party leasing the Music City Center could ban firearms.  Is that correct?  Would a private entity have to put up gun buster signs at all entrances to prohibit carrying?  Is this part of state law?

 

We had a similar problem in Georgia in which private entities were trying to ban carrying at their events held in public parks.  GeorgiaCarry.Org got the language changed last year so that it specifically says that a private entity can only ban guns on private property; if it is a public park, you can carry there regardless.  However, some of these private festivals and events still believe they have a power not granted to them.

[Oh Shoot]

So based on what Putman said in that last email, he indicates that a private party leasing the Music City Center could ban firearms.  Is that correct?

Pretty loose and wide ranging authority, carry may be banned "... an individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof..."
 

Would a private entity have to put up gun buster signs at all entrances to prohibit carrying?  Is this part of state law?

 

Yes. "...in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited.."

 

 

 

- OS
 

Edited January 31, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[spclopr8tr]

In case no one has noticed, the NRA has posted this on the convention web site:

 

"During the 2015 NRA Annual Meeting & Exhibits, lawfully carried firearms will be permitted in the Music City Center with the proper license in accordance with Tennessee law. Bridgestone Arena prohibits the possession of firearms. When carrying your firearm, remember to follow all federal, state and local laws."