Sig Brace ILLEGAL to shoulder

[gregintenn]

It was a great illustration as to the depth of silliness to which this issue sinks.

[peejman]

That's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. :D

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Also, realize you CANNOT carry a SBR or any rifle on your person outside a vehicle. This is a deal breaker for me to SBR my shorty AK "pistol".

 

Can somebody point me to the TCA statutes regarding this? 

 

You can carry loaded long guns in vehicle with HCP....but you can't legally "carry them on your person" outside the vehicle? That would make the whole using it to defend yourself a sticky thing if you had to set foot outside the vehicle unless the defending yourself is an exception for the "no carry on your person"......seriously, anyone know where to find that in TN Code?  

 

As someone mentioned before, the AR pistol (or SIg or AK or what have you) fills a niche (compact/easily packed rifle caliber gun for travel out of state) that does not require a 5320.20 form to be filed on your SBR......you can take it anywhere you can legally take a "pistol" since that is what it is....

 

HOW you use it does not effect how it was INTENDED to be used by the manufacturer. You can use a serrated steak knife as a saw to cut lumber....even if it was not intended to be used that way. A shotgun can be fired from the hip....not really how it was intended but that does not make it an AOW. A pistol can be gripped by the grip AND by a rail mounted light ....(even though that is ridiculous and not how it was intended to be used) and that does not make it an AOW.From reading the letters  I have a feeling we are dealing more with the "intent" of the "manufacturer" (be that a company or an individual) as to what they are assembling. HOW the end user operates is another story...

 

And as an aside note...the guy wanting to build the 14" shotgun with the brace....IIRC you cannot build pistols over 50 caliber so a .72 cal pistol is either a Destructive Device (and why Taurus had their 28ga pistols confiscated at SHOT) or it is an AOW , OR it is an SBS if it has a stock attached. You cannot legally build 12 gauge "pistols" no matter whether they have a brace or not. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[LCPfraTN]

And then I found this... be forewarned gents, it is CRUDE. But you MIGHT giggle.
http://imgur.com/a/gLBU5

Now that there is funny! I don't care who you are. :)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dolomite_supafly]

Can somebody point me to the TCA statutes regarding this? 

 

You can carry loaded long guns in vehicle with HCP....but you can't legally "carry them on your person" outside the vehicle? That would make the whole using it to defend yourself a sticky thing if you had to set foot outside the vehicle unless the defending yourself is an exception for the "no carry on your person"......seriously, anyone know where to find that in TN Code?  

 

As someone mentioned before, the AR pistol (or SIg or AK or what have you) fills a niche (compact/easily packed rifle caliber gun for travel out of state) that does not require a 5320.20 form to be filed on your SBR......you can take it anywhere you can legally take a "pistol" since that is what it is....

 

HOW you use it does not effect how it was INTENDED to be used by the manufacturer. You can use a serrated steak knife as a saw to cut lumber....even if it was not intended to be used that way. A shotgun can be fired from the hip....not really how it was intended but that does not make it an AOW. A pistol can be gripped by the grip AND by a rail mounted light ....(even though that is ridiculous and not how it was intended to be used) and that does not make it an AOW.From reading the letters  I have a feeling we are dealing more with the "intent" of the "manufacturer" (be that a company or an individual) as to what they are assembling. HOW the end user operates is another story...

 

And as an aside note...the guy wanting to build the 14" shotgun with the brace....IIRC you cannot build pistols over 50 caliber so a .72 cal pistol is either a Destructive Device (and why Taurus had their 28ga pistols confiscated at SHOT) or it is an AOW , OR it is an SBS if it has a stock attached. You cannot legally build 12 gauge "pistols" no matter whether they have a brace or not. 

 

A pistol gripped shotgun is NOT a "pistol" so the caliber requirement is not required. It meets the definition of "firearm" which only has to be 26" long.

 

I am working on the TCA stuff. Basically you can carry a long gun but only if the ammunition is not present.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

A pistol gripped shotgun is NOT a "pistol" so the caliber requirement is not required. It meets the definition of "firearm" which only has to be 26" long.

 

 

Right...a "shotgun" cannot be a "pistol"...and why the Black Aces "shotgun pistol" thing is not kosher. Pistol gripped shotguns under 18" are AOWs...not "pistols".  The only way that the .410 Judge is legal is it is rifled and under .50 cal. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

OOps...OK, I see what you are saying now (I think). Because the overall length of the 14" with the brace made it 26". BUt even if it is under 26 a 12ga cannot be a "pistol". 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Dolomite_supafly]

Sorry for the wall of text

 

 

39-17-1307.  Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon. 

https://web.lexisnexis.com/research/retrieve?_m=69b82c34f394d9ef654f22592b9a2b0b&docnum=2&_fmtstr=FULL&_startdoc=1&wchp=dGLbVzt-zSkAW&_md5=d8830f4f93b7ddcdb3d6aad9fbb3ca91

  (a)  (1) A person commits an offense who carries, with the intent to go armed, a firearm or a club.
   (2)  (A) The first violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class C misdemeanor, and, in addition to possible imprisonment as provided by law, may be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500).
      (B ) A second or subsequent violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class B misdemeanor.
      (C) A violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class A misdemeanor if the person's carrying of a handgun occurred at a place open to the public where one (1) or more persons were present.
(B )  (1) A person commits an offense who unlawfully possesses a firearm, as defined in § 39-11-106, and:
      (A) Has been convicted of a felony involving the use or attempted use of force, violence, or a deadly weapon; or
      (B ) Has been convicted of a felony drug offense.
   (2) An offense under subdivision (B )(1)(A) is a Class C felony.
   (3) An offense under subdivision (B )(1)(B ) is a Class D felony.
(c)  (1) A person commits an offense who possesses a handgun and has been convicted of a felony.
   (2) An offense under subdivision (c)(1) is a Class E felony.
(d)  (1) A person commits an offense who possesses a deadly weapon other than a firearm with the intent to employ it during the commission of, attempt to commit, or escape from a dangerous offense as defined in § 39-17-1324.
   (2) A person commits an offense who possesses any deadly weapon with the intent to employ it during the commission of, attempt to commit, or escape from any offense not defined as a dangerous offense by § 39-17-1324.
   (3)  (A) Except as provided in subdivision (d)(3)(B ), a violation of this subsection (d) is a Class E felony.
      (B ) A violation of this subsection (d) is a Class E felony with a maximum fine of six thousand dollars ($6,000), if the deadly weapon is a switchblade knife.
(e)  (1) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person is carrying or possessing a firearm or firearm ammunition in a motor vehicle if the person:
      (A) Is not prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm by 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) or purchasing a firearm by § 39-17-1316; and
      (B ) Is in lawful possession of the motor vehicle.
   (2) As used in this subsection (e):
      (A) "Motor vehicle" has the same meaning as defined in § 55-1-103;
      (B ) "Motor vehicle" does not include any motor vehicle that is:
         (i) Owned or leased by a governmental or private entity that has adopted a written policy prohibiting firearms or ammunition not required for employment within such a motor vehicle; and
         (ii) Provided by such entity to an employee for use during the course of employment.
(f)  (1) A person commits an offense who possesses a firearm, as defined in § 39-11-106(a), and:
      (A) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921, and is still subject to the disabilities of such a conviction;
      (B ) Is, at the time of the possession, subject to an order of protection that fully complies with 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8); or
      (C) Is prohibited from possessing a firearm under any other state or federal law.
   (2) If the person is licensed as a federal firearms dealer or a responsible party under a federal firearms license, the determination of whether such an individual possesses firearms that constitute the business inventory under the federal license shall be determined based upon the applicable federal statutes or the rules, regulations and official letters, rulings and publications of the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives.
   (3) For purposes of this section, a person does not possess a firearm, including, but not limited to, firearms registered under the National Firearms Act, compiled in 26 U.S.C. § 5801 et seq., if the firearm is in a safe or similar container that is securely locked and to which the respondent does not have the combination, keys or other means of normal access.
   (4) A violation of subdivision (f)(1) is a Class A misdemeanor and each violation constitutes a separate offense.
   (5) If a violation of subdivision (f)(1) also constitutes a violation of § 36-3-625(h) or § 39-13-113(h), the respondent may be charged and convicted under any or all such sections.
 
39-17-1308.  Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon. 

https://web.lexisnexis.com/research/retrieve?_m=96213f7865642516507f4df878447f2d&docnum=13&_fmtstr=FULL&_startdoc=11&wchp=dGLbVzt-zSkAW&_md5=7a3499ee0033818d33235a4dfb916b1a

  (a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:
   (1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;
   (2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351; (a HCP only allows the carry of a handgun)
   (3) At the person's:
      (A) Place of residence;
      (B ) Place of business; or
      (C) Premises;
   (4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;
   (5) By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

 

39-17-1351.  Handgun carry permits.  [Effective until January 1, 2016. See the version effective on January 1, 2016.]

https://web.lexisnexis.com/research/retrieve?_m=69b82c34f394d9ef654f22592b9a2b0b&docnum=6&_fmtstr=FULL&_startdoc=1&wchp=dGLbVzt-zSkAW&_md5=d8830f4f93b7ddcdb3d6aad9fbb3ca91

  (a) The citizens of this state have a right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the general assembly has the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

blah, blah, blah (see the full text above)

(n)  (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.
 

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Thanks! But I'm not sure that is the newest info....I don't see anything about loaded guns in cars without permits being legal now (unless I'm looking right at it and not seeing it which is a possibility).

 

Used to be that you had to have a permit to keep loaded guns in vehicle...now anyone can have loaded guns in vehicles...including long guns.

[Oh Shoot]

Thanks! But I'm not sure that is the newest info....I don't see anything about loaded guns in cars without permits being legal now (unless I'm looking right at it and not seeing it which is a possibility).

You are. It's in his quote of TCA section.
 
 
-  It's illegal to carry or even possess a firearm in TN with the intent to go armed (loaded gun or ammo in immediate vicinity of it is de facto "going armed" as per case law)
- There are various exceptions and defenses to that, and one of them is having them inside privately owned vehicle as long as you are not prohibited from owning/possessing by state or federal law
- There are no exceptions to carrying a loaded rifle or shotgun or "firearm" on the person in the general public. It's even illegal to carry one unloaded if it is concealed on the person. There are only some defenses for handgun, one of which is the HCP.
 

You can carry loaded long guns in vehicle with HCP....but you can't legally "carry them on your person" outside the vehicle? That would make the whole using it to defend yourself a sticky thing if you had to set foot outside the vehicle unless the defending yourself is an exception for the "no carry on your person"......

 

Using a firearm in justified self defense or defense of others exonerates you from any of the weapons laws in the entire section

 
Must say I'm quite surprised by you among all people on TGO asking about such.  The permit-less carry in vehicle was passed last legislative session but it has been unlawful to carry a loaded long gun in general public since like "forever", I guess the late 1800's AFAIK.
 
TCA 39-17-1301 through 1364
 
http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/
 
(for some reason it won't work in FireFox for me today, still okay in IE and Chrome)
 
- OS

Edited December 31, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I was aware of the no loaded long guns carry . Until they changed the law for HCP holders to be able to carry loaded long guns in vehicles "Big Boy rules" applied. Fortunately that was changed. The issue I was raising question about was in a round about way without typing 3 pages (I'm at work here...) how the legal carry of loaded long guns in a vehicle for self defense (which is a lawful purpose) would play out against the "no carry of long guns" outside the vehicle that is also on the books if you are not in the act of shooting someone in self defense. 

 

Obviously the act of using it for self defense trumps the "illegal carry" just like it would with a pistol carried on school grounds (which there is case law for) , on posted property, in court, etc. In those cases Self Defense is a "doctrine of competing harms" kind of affirmative defense. "yes they broke the law but it is OK because they were defending against unlawful violence". So if you smoke some guy trying to kill you in a "gun free zone" you are covered by the "safe harbor" law.  But the key part is you have to be defending yourself....

 

The screwed up thing is that it is legal to carry in vehicle loaded AND It is legal to use for defense BUT in a strictly legal sense it is somehow illegal to carry it loaded to and from your car if you are not actively shooting someone in defense at the time? So you have to carry it to the car unloaded and then load it in the car and then unload it before you take it out of the car because "carrying" a loaded long gun is illegal??????  The law probably needs to be clarified.,,,,,but of course then the question becomes...has ANYone ever actually been prosecuted for this and if so what were the exact circumstances?

 

And is this something that even really ever comes into play for anyone? So for instance you (possessor of valid TN HCP)  take your loaded AR carbine in your discreet carry bag from house to car in the morning... you arrive at work and take it inside....you leave work and drive to another town in Tennessee (so there are no "other state travel" issues involved for simplicity sake). You get out and go into hotel room taking loaded rifle with you. You spend night with it in room with you. You get up and put it back in car. You drive to the event you were in that town for leaving it loaded and in the car. When the event is over (we'll say it was a golf tournament just for argument sake) you go to the mall, leaving it in the car. You finish buying your.....candles for the wife or whatever you bought at the mall...and leave the other town and drive home again not travelling through any other states. You get home and take rifle out of car and put it in the house....at what point were you actually "illegally carrying" it? 

 

 

 

Again, sorry,  kind of rushed for time.... that is why it is choppy and edited a lot...

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Oh Shoot]

.... But it is somehow illegal to carry it loaded to and from your car? So you have to carry it to the car unloaded and then load it in the car?...

 

Again, those behaviors are covered by exceptions in TCA weapons sections. Lawful to do on your own property,  your business, incident to hunting, sport shooting, etc.

 

Pretty well covered for what you do with them I imagine.

 

- OS

Edited December 31, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Cruel Hand Luke]

OK so at what point is  the "lawful citizen" going to get tripped up by this?  

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Oh Shoot]

OK so at what point is  the "lawful citizen" going to get tripped up by this?  

 

As far as long guns, toting one around at the shopping center or around town or your neighborhood, walking along a road, anywhere in "general public" without a qualifying exception/defense.

 

Even carrying one in a case that suggests rifle/shotgun is obviously inviting inquiry from a LEO to see if any ammo for it on you also.

 

- OS

Edited December 31, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

at what point were you actually "illegally carrying" it? 

 

 

 

Again, sorry,  kind of rushed for time.... that is why it is choppy and edited a lot...

You are actually illegally carrying a weapon, pistol or rifle or club, anytime you are in control of it or have it on your person. Even a LE officer is breaking the law while carrying his sidearm but one of the defenses states he can because he is LE. So anytime you carry a gun, any gun, you are breaking the law and the details are in the defenses in this state. And this is why a LE officer has probable cause to question ANYONE with a firearm because anyone with a firearm IS breaking the law and upon investigation by the officer he can determine you have a valid defense.

 

And that is what the NFA organization I mentioned earlier is trying to change. Make it legal rather than illegal within certain criteria.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

edited...this is in response to OH SHoot...DOlomite posted while I was typing...

 

So essentially unless you are either "waving it around" out in the open or carrying it on a hike down the highway then you are still within the law....

 

Steering this back to the original subject....if it then is not "illegal" to "carry it to and from your car and house and hotel and other peoples houses , etc then there is little chance of the "common man" running afoul of the law. So then at what point is having the brace equipped Ar (or SIg or AK ) pistol REALLY making it easier to keep you on the side of the angels...INSIDE the borders of TN? Aside from going for a jog with it or taking it on public transportation I'm having a hard time seeing where that makes much difference if it is not out visibly in the open. Now outside TN you might travel to a place where loaded long guns are a "no no" and in THAT case you are covered by it being a pistol...but for inside TN does it REALLY make that much difference?

 

I ask this because I know a lot of folks who both legally (and in the past illegally) have carried loaded long guns in their vehicles. None of them has ever run into a situation where they ran afoul of the law. So I'm just naturally curious as to exactly what likely scenario inside the borders of TN would be better served with an AR pistol than an actual SBR or carbine with a stock (aside from obvious size and storage issues).

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Dolomite_supafly]

Carrying a loaded long gun, or with ammunition present, is illegal if you carry it into a store or really anywhere else in the public unless it meets any of the defenses. Trust me I would rather carry any one of my SBRs but legally I cannot. I carry my AK "pistol" everywhere I go and I do not leave it in the vehicle. And because I am carrying in public I cannot carry a loaded long gun.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

You are actually illegally carrying a weapon, pistol or rifle or club, anytime you are in control of it or have it on your person. Even a LE officer is breaking the law while carrying his sidearm but one of the defenses states he can because he is LE. So anytime you carry a gun, any gun, you are breaking the law and the details are in the defenses in this state. And this is why a LE officer has probable cause to question ANYONE with a firearm because anyone with a firearm IS breaking the law and upon investigation by the officer he can determine you have a valid defense.

 

And that is what the NFA organization I mentioned earlier is trying to change. Make it legal rather than illegal within certain criteria.

Agreed. ALL lawful carry in TN is essentially an exception to the law. My HCP is an exception for carry of pistol . The Monadnock impact weapon certification card is an exception for carry of a "club". They are all exceptions because carrying "weapons" with the "intent to go armed" is on its face illegal in TN.  And it would be great to get that changed at least from a "academic" standpoint. I just don't know if anyone's "ox is really being gored" by the way the law is currently being applied.  I'm certainly open to being convinced though.

 

 I'm just not seeing a rash folks getting arrested for having loaded long guns outside their vehicles in my area. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Carrying a loaded long gun, or with ammunition present, is illegal if you carry it into a store or really anywhere else in the public unless it meets any of the defenses. Trust me I would rather carry any one of my SBRs but legally I cannot. I carry my AK "pistol" everywhere I go and I do not leave it in the vehicle. And because I am carrying in public I cannot carry a loaded long gun.

OK...so you are then carrying it with you into businesses concealed on your person or carrying it in a case? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately curious so that I know that we are on the same page in the discussion. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Dolomite_supafly]

I carry it in a computer bag that I always have close to me. I cannot carry it for very long with crutches so either my wife carries it to a shopping cart or I do. For the most part it makes no difference if it is on my person or under my control.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Dolomite_supafly

[Oh Shoot]

So essentially unless you are either "waving it around" out in the open or carrying it on a hike then you are still within the law....

Not at all. Simply having long gun over your shoulder walking around your neighborhood is unlawful, unless it's unloaded (and no ammo on person, or even on a companion's person), and not concealed.
 

Steering this back to the original subject....if it then is not "illegal" to "carry it to and from your car and house and hotel and other peoples houses , etc then there is little chance of the "common man" running afoul of the law.

That's likely assuming some liberties that are not certain. While it's generally opined that a hotel/motel (and perhaps even just a campsite) becomes your de facto "abode", it's quite gray about any part of the property qualifying for that except your room/tent. Other people's private property is probably safe enough assuming they are aware of it and don't object, as defense is "person's" place of residence/premises, and not the firearm "owner's".
 

So then at what point is having the brace equipped Ar (or SIg or AK ) pistol REALLY making it easier to keep you on the side of the angels...INSIDE the borders of TN? Aside from going for a jog with it or taking it on public transportation I'm having a hard time seeing where that makes much difference if it is not out visibly in the open. Now outside TN you might travel to a place where loaded long guns are a "no no" and in THAT case you are covered by it being a pistol...but for inside TN does it REALLY make that much difference?

Inside the state, you are correct, little practical difference for most folks most of the time. However, if you choose to carry an AR or AK pistol around on your person in public, you can with a permit. You might have occasion to do so, depending on life factors and special threat circumstances (let Dolo tell you his circumstances if you haven't read them). And can even do it discretely with like a tennis racquet case or whatever, hide in plain sight.
 

I ask this because I know a lot of folks who both legally (and in the past illegally) have carried loaded long guns in their vehicles. No one has ever run into a situation where they ran afoul of the law.

If they had round in chamber, before July of this year, they did so unlawfully, even with a permit. As far as "odds", most of us would never be hammered for having an illegal SBR as far as that goes. But that of course is not the ultimate point.

- OS Edited December 31, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Cruel Hand Luke]

For good or ill, I don't see a whole lot of people with slung rifles in everyday life in my neighborhood. Yet I have personally carried a loaded AK in a "sneaky bag" (looks like a skateboard case) through a police checkpoint on foot after the tornado here a few years back. I had to park my car due to downed power lines on the road just short of home and walk the last 600 yards to the house. I simply told 'em I live in THAT neighborhood right there and am going to hoof it to THAT house right there on the hill. They said "just be careful" and that was that.  

 

I generally follow the advice that if you are not drawing attention to yourself you are not going to be singled out. No one gets arrested for carrying concealed weapons...the weapons get found when they search them incident to arresting them for something else not involving the weapon. A folding stock rifle or SBR (or even a rifle caliber pistol) and a "sneaky bag" (either made by Sneaky Bag or by any other number of vendors) go a long way toward making things less obvious avoiding the "eye of Morder" and staying out of any unpleasant imperial entanglements. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Oh Shoot]

Back to original topic, something I've not heard anyone mention something about BATF org period lately on any of the sites I frequent.

 

I'm wondering if there aren't tangential factors going on with ATF in all this stuff, meaning, that there may be a bit of a shakeup if not some outright disorganization and/or terrible communication within the bureau right now.

 

Haven't seen anything issue from Earl Griffith in some time, or indeed from the "Firearms Technology Division" at all. And he hadn't been Chief of that Division all that long since the previous one, John Spencer, issued the first SIG brace approval in the first place. Max Kingery had "signed" the Bradley letter "for" Earl, too. Who knows exactly what that's about, did Earl become out of pocket for whatever reason after writing it or did Max actually write it, or ? If Max wrote it himself, as has been pointed out may times in various discussions, then two of his subsequent opinions have diametrically opposed that one, so I continue to opine that he did not.

 

Now you've got this "Firearms Technology Industrial Services Division" coming to the forefront on all this stuff, which I had never even heard of before, wherein Max Kingery surfaces as "Acting Chief", but not for long apparently, unless there is more than one "Acting Chief", as the latest seems to be Michael Curtis, writing the Shockwave opinion.

 

And tangentially the actual BATF Director has only been in place for 1.5 years now, first one since the official head position went unfilled in 2006. It is perhaps interesting (or not) that BHO did not choose the current acting director at that time, Kenneth Melsen, or any of the previous ones, but went outside the organization entirely to choose Todd Jones.

 

All which is to say not much of anything beyond wondering what really may be happening internally there, and almost certainly without any way to find out, of course.

 

- OS

Edited January 1, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

Back to original topic, something I've not heard anyone mention something about BATF org period lately on any of the sites I frequent.

 

I'm wondering if there aren't tangential factors going on with ATF in all this stuff, meaning, that there may be a bit of a shakeup if not some outright disorganization and/or terrible communication within the bureau right now.

 

Haven't seen anything issue from Earl Griffith in some time, or indeed from the "Firearms Technology Division" at all. And he hadn't been Chief of that Division all that long since the previous one, John Spencer, issued the first SIG brace approval in the first place. Max Kingery had "signed" the Bradley letter "for" Earl, too. Who knows exactly what that's about, did Earl become out of pocket for whatever reason after writing it or did Max actually write it, or ? If Max wrote it himself, as has been pointed out may times in various discussions, then two of his subsequent opinions have diametrically opposed that one, so I continue to opine that he did not.

 

Now you've got this "Firearms Technology Industrial Services Division" coming to the forefront on all this stuff, which I had never even heard of before, wherein Max Kingery surfaces as "Acting Chief", but not for long apparently, unless there is more than one "Acting Chief", as the latest seems to be Michael Curtis, writing the Shockwave opinion.

 

And tangentially the actual BATF Director has only been in place for 1.5 years now, first one since the official head position went unfilled in 2006. It is perhaps interesting (or not) that BHO did not choose the current acting director at that time, Kenneth Melsen, or any of the previous ones, but went outside the organization entirely to choose Todd Jones.

 

All which is to say not much of anything beyond wondering what really may be happening internally there, and almost certainly without any way to find out, of course.

 

- OS

 

One minor question just got answered in a new letter just saw to Thordsen regarding their cheek rest thang:

 

"...Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch (FTISB), formally Firearms Technology Branch (FTB)..."

 

Signed by the "newest acting chief" Michael Curtis. So a rearrangement within the bureaucracy, and seems Earl Griffith is out of the picture in whatever way in that branch now, and Max is where ever else too.

 

- OS

Edited January 1, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Dirtshooter]

A little off topic, but I still can't understand why it is "illegal" to build an AR pistol from an AR rifle receiver. Just shows how stupid the ATF rules really are. So are they going to send someone to watch everyone as they go to shoot their guns to make sure that nobody holds and AR/AK pistol to their shoulder? So if I read all this correctly isn't the buffer tube with a crutch tip on it also technically illegal if put to one's shoulder? "Stupid is as stupid does"