Sig Brace ILLEGAL to shoulder

[mcordell]

I am just copying and pasting from another forum ..... Could be BS but the letter looks rather legit.... You be the judge
 
 
"Just posted tonight in a local gun group. This is the first specific letter I have seen dealing with the sig brace, and an AR15. This is not the same letter that you have all seen, it is new, as in tonight. Or you can wait a couple days or so and I am sure TAG or some other better late than never gun blog will have it in there."

]http://i.imgur.com/4eXqocy.jpg]

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Edit to add new pics of entire letter that I received from the individual that wrote the inquiry.

]http://i.imgur.com/YnA2mTj.jpg]

]http://i.imgur.com/O7EOpTm.jpg]

]http://i.imgur.com/SBJBf3b.jpg]

Edited December 26, 2014 by mcordell

[BJB]

Just glancing over this letter it says the Sig brace "is not intended or designed to shoot from the shoulder". I'm not seeing that it is saying it is "illegal" to do so. At least I hope not. I am working towards a SBR 9mm and plan on using a Sig brace which will probably at some point be used as a shoulder stock

[Dolomite_supafly]

And so it begins. Confusion by the ATF and a previously legal item is now illegal based on how it is used.

What sucks for us in Tennessee is it is illegal to have a long gun, loaded or unloaded, ion your person outside of a vehicle unless certain criteria are met. You cannot just carry around a rifle like you do with a pistol, either with or without a HCP.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Also, wonder if shouldering a bare buffer tube will soon be illegal as well.

The NFA needs to go away in a major way. Why should it matter whether I shoot from the shoulder or not? The rounds are just as effective regardless whether I shoulder it or not.

Bet a lot of people will be returning their Christmas gifted Sig braces now.

[Erik88]

.......

Edited December 28, 2014 by Erik88

[Whisper]

Well damn... Depending on how this shakes out I may sell mine AR PISTOL build. If I cant shoulder it then I don't want it. I have no desire to screw with SBR paperwork.

I don't see anything in this letter that suggests all AR pistols are now illegal to shoulder.

 

"If this device [meaning the SiG brace] ... is assembled to a pistol and used as a shoulder stock...."

 

But it will be interesting to see if they try changing their interpretation of the law in other details as regard AR pistols.

[leftyk82]

and that's why i went the Form 1 SBR route

[Erik88]

I don't see anything in this letter that suggests all AR pistols are now illegal to shoulder.

"If this device [meaning the SiG brace] ... is assembled to a pistol and used as a shoulder stock...."

But it will be interesting to see if they try changing their interpretation of the law in other details as regard AR pistols.

You just contradicted yourself. My AR-15 pistol has the brace and I want to shoulder it.. Apparently that is no longer allowed.

Did I misinterpret something?

[Erik88]

and that's why i went the Form 1 SBR route

I plan on leaving the state of Florida in the near future and taking these across state lines is a nightmare.

It's not worth it.

[leftyk82]

I plan on leaving the state of Florida in the near future and taking these across state lines is a nightmare.

It's not worth it.

 

I received my approved Form 5320.20 to take my SBR into Kentucky.  The form was approved for Nov 2014 through Nov 2015.  Letter was approved/returned to me in less than 10 days.

 

In my experience, with NFA friendly states and provided you are going to a single address in the neighbor state, it's not a big deal.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Also, realize you CANNOT carry a SBR or any rifle on your person outside a vehicle. This is a deal breaker for me to SBR my shorty AK "pistol".

I will say this will get a huge response from the shooting community. There are 10's of thousands of people who have bought the Sig brave because it can be shouldered. Now their $130 brace cannot be used the way they intended it so there will be a huge response, along with lawsuits, to determine whether use can change the classification.

Think about this. If the opinion states use is what determines what something is then you could argue installing machine gun parts are not illegal unless you actually fire it in full auto. Or a rifle with a 10" barrel is not an SBR unless it is shouldered.

Personally I hope the courts determine there is ok difference between an SBR and a pistol and do away with the NFA requirement to register what amounts to a "pistol" with a shoulder stock.

[Oh Shoot]

All very interesting lately.

 

- Now we have three letters from two different "Acting Chiefs" of this "Technology Industry Services Branch" that directly conflict with the letters by John Spenser, previous Chief, and  by Earl Griffith, the current Chief of the (I assume) more top level Firearm Technology Branch.

 

- Both the Black Aces letter and this letter dated in October and November, by Mr. Max M. Kingery who was "acting Chief" of the TISB.

 

- Note that Mr. Kingery's tenure was evidently somewhat short lived, as the Shockwave Blade letter is dated December 15, as is signed by TISB "acting Chief" Michael R. Curtis, presumably replacing him in this "acting" capacity.

 

Perhaps this will force the issue such that ATF has to release an actually official blanket ruling rather than the ongoing series of letters to individuals. And if that ruling says that how a legally configured firearm is actually used determines the difference between lawful use and a felony, I would expect court action to follow. Whether that would take an actual individual being charged first or not I don't know

 

The bottom line is though, that short of issues of public safety (think autos and flammables for example), conservation/ecology (think pesticides/hunting laws for example), or of course crimes committed against others, I can think of no area of law where how one actually utilizes an otherwise legal possession determines criminal behavior. I would posit that is a principle that is more basic that merely the area of firearm law itself.

 

But even within the context of just firearm law itself, this decision seems tantamount to ruling that firing a handgun using two hands or firing a stocked rifle or shotgun from the hip would also change the classification of the weapon also, with whatever attendant legalities that could ensue from that behavior, rather than the actual configuration of the weapon.

 

- OS

Edited December 26, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[R_Bert]

Also, wonder if shouldering a bare buffer tube will soon be illegal as well.

The NFA  BATFE needs to go away in a major way. Why should it matter whether I shoot from the shoulder or not? The rounds are just as effective regardless whether I shoulder it or not.

Bet a lot of people will be returning their Christmas gifted Sig braces now.

[Erik88]

All very interesting lately.

 

- Now we have three letters from this "Technology Industry Services Branch" that directly conflict with the letters by John Spenser, previous Chief, and  by Earl Griffith, the current Chief of the (I assume) more top level Firearm Technology Branch.

 

- Both the Black Aces letter and this letter dated in October and November, by Mr. Max M. Kingery who was "acting Chief" of the TISB.

 

- Note that Mr. Kingery's tenure was evidently somewhat short lived, as the Shockwave Blade letter is dated December 15, as is signed by TISB "acting Chief" Michael R. Curtis, presumably replacing him in this "acting" capacity.

 

Perhaps this will force the issue such that ATF has to release an actually official blanket ruling rather than the ongoing series of letters to individuals. And if that ruling says that how a legally configured firearm is actually used determines the difference between lawful use and a felony, I would expect court action to follow. Whether that would take an actual individual being charged first or not I don't know

 

The bottom line is though, that short of issues of public safety (think autos and flammables for example), conservation/ecology (think pesticides/hunting laws for example), or of course crimes committed against others, I can think of no area of law where how one actually utilizes an otherwise legal possession determines criminal behavior. I would posit that is a principle that is more basic that merely the area of firearm law itself.

 

But even within the context of just firearm law itself, this decision seems tantamount to ruling that firing a handgun using two hands or firing a stocked rifle or shotgun from the hip would also change the classification of the weapon also, with whatever attendant legalities that could ensue from that behavior, rather than the actual configuration of the weapon.

 

- OS

 

Are you going to continue shouldering your Pistol until we have a formal letter or ruling? 

 

I watched a video online by Sootch00, he brought up a good point. If her were to hold his Glock/Sig, etc up to his shoulder and fire it, it doesn't suddenly become something else. We shall see if the ATF agrees. 

[Oh Shoot]

If anybody wants to follow the saga in chronological order:

 

1. Original SIG brace approval letter:
11/26/12 - John R. Spencer, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

 

SIG Brace legal to add to a pistol, no mention of "usage"

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2. Sgt. Bradley Letter:
3/5/14 - Max M. Kingery "signing for" Earl Griffith, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch (whatever that exactly means)

 

Using brace "improperly" in way not intended by manufacturer does NOT change classification of firearm

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3. Black Aces Letter:
10/28/14 - Max M. Kingery, ACTING Chief, Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch

 

Shouldering the short barreled shotgun type "firearm" would make it an SBS. Also without mentioning it, allowed buffer tube/brace to add to the legal OAL of a firearm which did not require it for operation, thereby extending the current operating procedure of what constitutes the "firearm" for purposes of measuring OAL.

----------------

4. Current letter under discussion:
11/10/14 - Max M. Kingery, ACTING Chief, Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch

 

Shouldering AR pistol with SIG brace makes it an SBR

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5. Shockwave Blade Letter:
12/15/14 - Michael R. Curtis, ACTING Chief, Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch

 

Shouldering any pistol with Shockwave Blade makes it an SBR

-------------------------

 

Note that if Max "signing for" Earl in the Bradley letter means Max wrote it, then he has directly contradicted his own opinion in both the Black Aces letter and this one.

 

- OS

Edited December 26, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Whisper]

You just contradicted yourself. My AR-15 pistol has the brace and I want to shoulder it.. Apparently that is no longer allowed.

Did I misinterpret something?

Yes, you didn't read the letter or my post very carefully.  The passage I quoted deals with AR pistols that have the SiG brace and are shouldered.  It doesn't say anything about the legality of shouldering AR pistols that don't have the SiG brace....which I suspect is the great majority of AR pistols.  I realize this letter is a blow to SiG brace owners, but it doesn't mean that all AR pistols on the earth are now illegal to shoulder fire.  Of course, BATFE may be planning to move in that direction....

 

Cheers,

Whisper

[Hershmeister]

Good thing these letters only apply to the individuals who submitted them.

[Oh Shoot]

Are you going to continue shouldering your Pistol until we have a formal letter or ruling? 

 

Not worried about it for now, at least for where I normally shoot.

 

Hell, if somebody else would pay for defense I might volunteer to be a test case. :)

 

Also, ironically, none of these "letter decisions" specifically mention that an AK pistol with SIG brace becomes an SBR if shouldered, and the Bradley letter specifically allows firing from the shoulder with any pistol, so at least half my SIG brace usage is so far not verboten even by any letter, to whatever degree they will or even can be actually enforced.

 

- OS

Edited December 26, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[cannoncocker]

Prince Law Firm Posting  - 20 minutes ago

 

http://blog.princelaw.com/2014/12/26/whoops-we-atf-did-it-again-arbitrary-determinations-over-the-sig-brace/

[Oh Shoot]

Good thing these letters only apply to the individuals who submitted them.

 

If that's true, only Alex Bosco can have one on his pistols at all.

 

- OS

[peejman]

Only our government could come up with something so confusing. I've never understood why there is a thing called an SBR and why it's on the NFA list.

[gregintenn]

Has the NRA made public their position on this?

 

Anybody want to speculate on how this will turn out?

[crashgordan]

subscribed.  

[Garufa]

Has the NRA made public their position on this?

 

Anybody want to speculate on how this will turn out?

 

I don't know why they would.

 

Not in a way that would satisfy the vast majority of brace users I'm afraid.

[Johnny Rotten]

Think about this. If the opinion states use is what determines what something is then you could argue installing machine gun parts are not illegal unless you actually fire it in full auto.

Here's an example of that, there are many more..
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/436565_M_16_trigger_group__in_an_AR_15.html

I have a buddy that has a RDIAS with several hosts, when he leaves the range he'll pull all the FCG except the host he decides to leave the rdias in, not worth getting caught..