License Fee increase

[300winmag]

I think it would be hard to get a high school kid or a kid right out of high school to pay this kind of money to hunt, especially if they are hunting on their own.  I'd like to see night hunting of coyote open up and also being able to use centerfire rifles to coyote hunt during the archery and muzzleloading deer seasons.  I know the TWRA will have the excuse of people can claim they are coyote hunting and shoot deer during archery season or at night, but if I'm paying 150 plus for a hunting license, I need to see some value in it.  TWRA needs to worry more about the people not buying hunting licenses and not those paying big bucks for a license and wanting to night hunt coyotes. 

[JAB]

Article I read said July 2015, so if you buy your licenses early you'll beat the increase should they do it.  

 

While I don't like the increase, I can understand it.  It's been 10 years since the last increase.  Instead of a massive increase every 10 years or so, why not a smaller increase of a dollar every year or two.

 

With due respect, just because it has been ten years since any government fee/tax has gone up doesn't automatically justify jacking it up.  Especially when the fee is already too high.  I mean, really, 28 bucks for a resident to fish off the bank in Watts-Bar, etc. and maybe haul in a few bream when that same resident still has to pay for an extra stamp just to be able to legally harvest trout in public waters (another 18 bucks) and then has to pay for yet another ($5.50) license to fish for trout in places like Tellico/Citico?  That's $51.50 for a chance at maybe catching a trout and the bag limit is seven.  I could buy a handful of dinners at Red Lobster for that and just skip the hassle.  I know TWRA depends on our licensing fees and so on to maintain and manage certain resources but sometimes it seems like us regular folks are being asked to open a vein so that they can cater to bass tournaments.

Edited December 17, 2014 by JAB

[bersaguy]

With due respect, just because it has been ten years since any government fee/tax has gone up doesn't automatically justify jacking it up.  Especially when the fee is already too high.  I mean, really, 28 bucks for a resident to fish off the bank in Watts-Bar, etc. and maybe haul in a few bream when that same resident still has to pay for an extra stamp just to be able to legally harvest trout in public waters (another 18 bucks) and then has to pay for yet another ($5.50) license to fish for trout in places like Tellico/Citico?  That's $51.50 for a chance at maybe catching a trout and the bag limit is seven.  I could buy a handful of dinners at Red Lobster for that and just skip the hassle.  I know TWRA depends on our licensing fees and so on to maintain and manage certain resources but sometimes it seems like us regular folks are being asked to open a vein so that they can cater to bass tournaments.

Believe me when I tell you the "TWRA DOES NOT" cater to bass tournaments. In fact they hate them and have made that clear many many times. I know because I have operated tournament trails in the past here in Tennessee and they hate it when someone like BASS or FLW comes to town. They don't take into consideration that about 250+ bass anglers will be buying out of state fishing licenses every time they come. About 4 million dollars will be earned by the host county like Hendersonville or Gallatin and Sumner County Tourism. This license increase may send them to other states and lakes to spend their money that appreciate them coming there.  I do agree 100% that it will punish young people fresh out of school and it will also punish Seniors that have to buy trout stamps and big game stamps if they hunt and trout fish but as I said they hate Bass Tournaments..........jmho

[monkeylizard]

For many of us, it isn't about the meat, it is about the enjoyment of hunting in general.  I don't like deer meat other than if I get it made into summer sausage sticks.  I usually donate one to Hunters for the Hungry and get sausage (and keep the loins) out of another.  It certainly isn't saving money, but I just love being in the woods.

 

I get that. But I can hike in the parks for free or camp in them for a nominal fee and enjoy the woods. I can watch loads of deer at Gallatin Gun Club, including some nice sized bucks. I can watch squirrels in my back yard. Take away the meat and I can get pretty much the same outdoorsiness I'm getting from hunting for free or nearly free in other ways. At some point, this just gets crazy. The license has no other value to me. I hate fishing. I'd rather get a prostate exam from Andre the Giant than fish since at least the exam would be over quickly. I have no need or desire to hunt anything but deer. This gun addiction of mine is already expensive enough so I don't plan to add muzzleloaders or archery equipment too. That means I'm shelling out a wad of cash to hunt for about 6 weeks. In that time, I'm working like most of us are, and have other commitments on my time including all the Thanksgiving and Christmas stuff. If I can work in 4 or 5 times out during the rifle season, that's doing pretty good. I got hosed by a master baiter (see other thread) so I've only made it out twice and may only make it one or two more if I'm lucky. Right now I'm averaging $38.50 in license fees to sit on my butt in the cold for several hours after dragging myself out of bed at 4am, disturbing my wife's sleep and having to hear about that after I get home. Right now, I'm thinking this hunting thing isn't for me. I'm still hopeful and haven't given up just yet, but it doesn't look good. Add in a price increase and it may be enough to make me sell the gear I bought and wash my hands of the whole thing. The hit I'll take on selling the gear will probably still be less than a single season's license fees.

 

Maybe it's true that some people have it in their blood and maybe I just don't. We'll see. I'm still hopeful.

[Hozzie]

I would argue you can't get the same outdoorsiness without taking the shot.  You haven't had that rush of adrenaline and nerves waiting to get and take that shot.  Hunting is not just about about going to sit in a stand with a gun, or bow, or muzzleloader and waiting for some animal to walk by.  Hunting for many of us is a year round love.  It's about learning the areas you hunt, putting in the work to build food plots, or if you can't do that, scouting areas to give yourself the best chance of a successful hunt.  The difference in a "successful" hunt means many different things to many different people.  For some, it is shooting a doe for the meat, for others it is about trophy's, and in my view for real sportsman, it is about wildlife management. 

 

I think what you need to do is get with someone who can help you have a more broad 'hunting experience".   I think everyone needs to do a good stalk hunt as for me that is true hunting, but I realize that it takes some land to do that. I realize it isn't easy to start on your own, especially if you don't have your own land to really get involved with.  I can see where it is boring for someone who has never hunted and just goes out and sits in a stand with little to no prep, expects they will get a chance to shoot something, and then see nothing.  Hunting takes time and effort.  For me, hunting is about the work before the seasons,  the chase, the adrenalin rush, and the enjoyment of being outdoors.  The last thing on my mind while hunting is the cost.  In fact, I would argue that for the hours spent, hunting for me is one of the cheapest hobbies I have per hour of enjoyment. 

 

What I get annoyed with is people who say everything is too expensive.  I guess I am fortunate and not worried about my next meal, so maybe it doesn't affect me as much, but this as with many things is about priorities.  A lot of the same people who complain about the cost of hunting are paying $100/month for a cell phone so they can play Candy Crush.  If you are truly poor and are doing this to feed your family, I wouldn't even mind a special license available to those who can prove the need.  One can certainly save money if they butcher their own deer.  It isn't hard, but I don't think these are the people complaining.  It is the ones who want to hunt to say they have hunted, but don't realize the commitment it takes to be successful.  I will leave the cost of a gun out of it as I think even some of the poorest people out there have a gun.  I don't know a single redneck who doesn't have some rifle.   For less than $50/year they can shoot a crap load of deer compared to most states and if they process themselves (which I am sure all truly poor people do), there is a huge cost savings.  

 

The TWRA is one of the few State organizations where the money stays with them.  While I may not agree with every decision they make, I do believe they are trying to do their best to conserve wildlife in a responsible manner.  It takes money to do that.   I consider my license fee a donation to help them do their job.  For the enjoyment I get out of hunting, it's easy for me to say $135/yr for a Sportsman License is a deal. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Hozzie

[monkeylizard]

For those who use the license throughout the year, I don't see what the complaint would be about the cost. I agree that it's reasonable then. My issue is that it's the same price for a person to only hunt deer for 6 weeks as it is for a person who hunts deer for 3 months, turkey for 6 weeks, fishes year round, hunts small game, and bird hunts. A single-day hunting license like the single-day fishing might be a nice idea, with a limit of how many a person can buy before needing the full license.

 

 

I can see where it is boring for someone who has never hunted and just goes out and sits in a stand with little to no prep, expects they will get a chance to shoot something, and then see nothing. Hunting takes time and effort. For me, hunting is about the work before the seasons, the chase, the adrenalin rush, and the enjoyment of being outdoors.

 

I guess right now maybe that's close to where I am. I did do some prep before the season by scouting the land as best I could with my uncle who has hunted for a long time. That was fun. It was the first time I had ever noticed the rubs on the trees. It was like hiking, but slower and paying more attention. The only non-WMA land I have access to is wooded so there's not much I can do to work the land. It's also an hour each way from my house. My uncle has had some health issue lately that kept him from being out there with me, so I went with a friend who is still new to deer hunting too. He hunted last year with some experienced hunters and got a doe, but that's it. I guess we're just a couple of monkeys trying to hump a football.

 

I got a coyote the first  time out, which I guess was nice, but I didn't get an adrenaline rush from it. I didn't get pumped up when some does came somewhat close to the stand either. Not close enough for a shot, but close enough to watch. Maybe it's just not in me to love this sport.

 

Like I said, I'm not giving up yet, but so far it's not a whole lot of fun. At this point, it could be free and I'm not sure I'd want to keep doing it. Maybe I'll try doves next year. I like skeet shooting.

[peejman]

When the sportsman license is noticeably more expensive than neighboring states' non-resident license, I think you'll see fewer licenses sold here.  Particularly when pigs are off the menu.  Why pay $166 here when you can go spend a week in Ohio or WV, get a cheaper license, and get more deer that are much bigger? 

[DaveS]

We hunters are a small drop of water in TWRA's bucket. Duck's Unlimited pumps millions into our wildlife programs. And to have to pay outrageous fees to hunt "public owned lands" is already crazy! Some of our Brother and Sister TGO members on here are catching hell paying for license now. What are they going to do in the future?

 

Dave

[Howler]

  I'd like to see night hunting of coyote open up and also being able to use centerfire rifles to coyote hunt during the archery and muzzleloading deer seasons.  I know the TWRA will have the excuse of people can claim they are coyote hunting and shoot deer during archery season or at night, but if I'm paying 150 plus for a hunting license, I need to see some value in it.  TWRA needs to worry more about the people not buying hunting licenses and not those paying big bucks for a license and wanting to night hunt coyotes. 

I would guess that if night hunting coyote became a reality there would be a set season. I like the fact they can be hunted year round. You can forget being able to use a centerfire during archery or ML season. The deer will be protected from poachers at all cost because they bring in the $$$$

[Jonnin]

Holy crap. This better be one tasty deer if I ever get one. I think I could have had a live Kobe cow shipped in from Japan and custom butchered for what it's costing me to get in to deer hunting. So far I have to say that I'm not enjoying it enough to keep dropping so much coin on it every year. I know a lot is sunk costs in equipment, but taking the rates up will only make me less likely to get a license each year.

 

this is just plain truth ...  I started to get into it thinking it was "cheap meat" but the reality is I can split a whole cow from a farmer/butcher across my family and we all get more meat for less, and without the random luck factor and without the labor and aggravation.   Same for a whole pig.  If you do not enjoy it, learn how to do it for your own personal benefit, and move along to something you enjoy.

[FJCrusing]

When the sportsman license is noticeably more expensive than neighboring states' non-resident license, I think you'll see fewer licenses sold here.  Particularly when pigs are off the menu.  Why pay $166 here when you can go spend a week in Ohio or WV, get a cheaper license, and get more deer that are much bigger? 

 

Agreed.  I hunt in WV every year and buy an out of state license for what TN is about to charge for a Sportsman License.  I also see much more deer in WV and hunt on my families 300 acre farm.  I'll pass on 3 or 4 in a day before I finally decide on one and typically see does that are the size of most bucks in TN.  I will either just hunt WV exclusively or pony up for the lifetime license before July 1st. 

[JAB]

Believe me when I tell you the "TWRA DOES NOT" cater to bass tournaments. In fact they hate them and have made that clear many many times. I know because I have operated tournament trails in the past here in Tennessee and they hate it when someone like BASS or FLW comes to town. They don't take into consideration that about 250+ bass anglers will be buying out of state fishing licenses every time they come. About 4 million dollars will be earned by the host county like Hendersonville or Gallatin and Sumner County Tourism. This license increase may send them to other states and lakes to spend their money that appreciate them coming there.  I do agree 100% that it will punish young people fresh out of school and it will also punish Seniors that have to buy trout stamps and big game stamps if they hunt and trout fish but as I said they hate Bass Tournaments..........jmho

 

I don't know.  I was actually basing my opinion on something I was told by a TWRA officer once.  He said that most of the 'fish management' rules were pushed through by bass tournament guys who wanted to make sure there were huge bass to catch.  Further, he said that the way fish are managed in this state is directly the opposite of the way it should be done because, rather than push for diversity and a large number of 'average' sized fish so that there will be healthy populations (not to mention more fish available to harvest), the rules are set up to cater to the tournaments and promote a much smaller number of fish that are 'tournament size'.  He, as a rank and file TWRA employee, definitely did not like bass tournaments.  However, his opinion was that the folks who actually make the rules (and may or may not have any kind of background or training in fisheries management) cater to them.  Of course, that was just the opinion of one guy but he made perfect sense and I figure that as an employee of the agency he knew more about it than I did.

Edited December 18, 2014 by JAB

[homeagain]

I would argue you can't get the same outdoorsiness without taking the shot.  You haven't had that rush of adrenaline and nerves waiting to get and take that shot.  Hunting is not just about about going to sit in a stand with a gun, or bow, or muzzleloader and waiting for some animal to walk by.  Hunting for many of us is a year round love.  It's about learning the areas you hunt, putting in the work to build food plots, or if you can't do that, scouting areas to give yourself the best chance of a successful hunt.  The difference in a "successful" hunt means many different things to many different people.  For some, it is shooting a doe for the meat, for others it is about trophy's, and in my view for real sportsman, it is about wildlife management. 

 

I think what you need to do is get with someone who can help you have a more broad 'hunting experience".   I think everyone needs to do a good stalk hunt as for me that is true hunting, but I realize that it takes some land to do that. I realize it isn't easy to start on your own, especially if you don't have your own land to really get involved with.  I can see where it is boring for someone who has never hunted and just goes out and sits in a stand with little to no prep, expects they will get a chance to shoot something, and then see nothing.  Hunting takes time and effort.  For me, hunting is about the work before the seasons,  the chase, the adrenalin rush, and the enjoyment of being outdoors.  The last thing on my mind while hunting is the cost.  In fact, I would argue that for the hours spent, hunting for me is one of the cheapest hobbies I have per hour of enjoyment. 

 

What I get annoyed with is people who say everything is too expensive.  I guess I am fortunate and not worried about my next meal, so maybe it doesn't affect me as much, but this as with many things is about priorities.  A lot of the same people who complain about the cost of hunting are paying $100/month for a cell phone so they can play Candy Crush.  If you are truly poor and are doing this to feed your family, I wouldn't even mind a special license available to those who can prove the need.  One can certainly save money if they butcher their own deer.  It isn't hard, but I don't think these are the people complaining.  It is the ones who want to hunt to say they have hunted, but don't realize the commitment it takes to be successful.  I will leave the cost of a gun out of it as I think even some of the poorest people out there have a gun.  I don't know a single redneck who doesn't have some rifle.   For less than $50/year they can shoot a crap load of deer compared to most states and if they process themselves (which I am sure all truly poor people do), there is a huge cost savings.  

 

The TWRA is one of the few State organizations where the money stays with them.  While I may not agree with every decision they make, I do believe they are trying to do their best to conserve wildlife in a responsible manner.  It takes money to do that.   I consider my license fee a donation to help them do their job.  For the enjoyment I get out of hunting, it's easy for me to say $135/yr for a Sportsman License is a deal. 

 

I agree.  Granted, I don't have a lot of disposable income, and $135 (or potentially $166) is something that I have to 'budget' for each year.  However, it is something that provides ROI in my annual budget.  It puts 4-5 self-butchered deer in the freezer, which at a direct cost (excluding sunk costs like rifle, truck, gas spent, etc. - which would be expended anyway) of about $0.66/lb at 4-5 deer and about $1.22/lb at 2-3 (roughly) is frankly cheaper and more fun than beef.  Not to mention the 3-4 turkeys a year, many shellcracker/bream, multiple trout, rabbits, squirrels, etc.

 

Others have likened it to a 'progressive tax,' and I don't exactly agree.  It's more of an access or 'user' fee much like trash pickup in municipalities.  Some cities have solid waste pickup that is part of their general fund (property tax driven) and some have a monthly flat fee.  The flat fee is most fair, because for 96 gallons of trash per week each resident (regardless of income level) pays $17/mo.  Same volume trash, same fee.  Under the property tax driven, general fund model the guy in the $500K McMansion pays more to have his 96 gallons of refuse picked up than the guy in the $75K mini-ranch....unfair to the guy that has done well for himself.  And there are income-based relief programs out there.

 

With that said, I would be willing to pay $200/year for a sportsman license with the provision that free doe-only (say limit of 4/year) and small game/fishing licenses be provided to low income families with a limit of 3 free accesses in 5 years (or some other rational limit) based on household income levels.  They could even check 'em in on their Obamaphone.  'Course the administration costs for the program would have fiscal note attached.

[JAB]

 

It's more of an access or 'user' fee much like trash pickup in municipalities.

 

My problem with that is the things for which the access/user fee is being charged.  We aren't talking about a service such as trash collection here - we are talking about natural resources, land and so on that belong to everyone.  The government doesn't own nature.  They don't own the deer in the woods or the crappie in the lake.  They own none of it yet they charge increasingly larger fees for using/accessing it.  In some ways, it is like requiring people to pay for a license to legally breathe the air or a fee for the rain that falls on their garden.

 

I understand that there has to be some management of wildlife, natural areas, fish populations and so on and I realize that some fees must be collected in order to do so.  That is just the way it is.  I simply think that the people who make the rules and decide what the fees should be have gotten carried away.

Edited December 18, 2014 by JAB

[mike243]

The fishing lic $ isn't part of the hunting $ for legal reasons. federal $ is given for fishing programs ect and cant be combined with other funds. I support the raise even though it will cost my son and his wife more. I got the grand kids their lifetime and I also have mine.for the cost of a pack of cigarettes the fishing and small game lic is hardly a huge increase imo and $30 some odd dollars spread into 365 days is still $ well spent if your a outdoors type. a 6 pack of top notch beer is upwards of $10  and how many folks complain about that cost. id bet this raise will cover another 10 years but guys life costs more every day and entertainment in any form isn't a necessity. Its all about choices and im in a win win deal here. Fewer hunters in the  woods or fishermen on the water means a better chance to harvest my limit  :) . In all studies I have seen the # of hunters has decreased which shifts the weight to fewer folks. we need more game wardens but with out $ for salary's it wont happen. they are looking to charge WMA users like horse rides bicycles hikers ect but when you start taking $ from them you open up their rights for time/services = $ /time taken from hunters ect.  15 years ago before I quit smoking it was $10-$15 a carton.Now I think I seen signs for over $50 . Can you imagine if lic went up the same % ? . I have to look at both sides here to be fair and don't see it as price gouging as much as it is insurance to insure the future of Tn sportsmen having a place to enjoy our state

[R_Bert]

 

 

Others have likened it to a 'progressive tax,' and I don't exactly agree.  It's more of an access or 'user' fee much like trash pickup in municipalities.  Some cities have solid waste pickup that is part of their general fund (property tax driven) and some have a monthly flat fee.  The flat fee is most fair, because for 96 gallons of trash per week each resident (regardless of income level) pays $17/mo.  Same volume trash, same fee.  Under the property tax driven, general fund model the guy in the $500K McMansion pays more to have his 96 gallons of refuse picked up than the guy in the $75K mini-ranch....unfair to the guy that has done well for himself.  And there are income-based relief programs out there.

 

 

I probably did not phrase that correctly. By "progressive tax", I was saying that it affects those lower income families more.  For many, it is a function of dwindling disposable income.  

 

 I can say this - If I did not already possess a lifetime license from when I was more economically sound, I would probably not hunt next year.  I note that many buddies have expressed an interest in going with me to learn about hunting.....until they are confronted with the fees (at current levels). 

 

From a new-user perspective,  I certainly would be less inclined to invest in equipment - that license structure is a big loading right up front if I am not sure I will like it enough to do it again next year. 

Edited December 20, 2014 by R_Bert

[Ugly]

Can anyone explain the requirements of private land to hunt without a license, such as how many acres and does it need to be an active farm? I've had no luck on the states website.

[guygene]

This is what the TWRA is saying about the hike:

http://www.tn.gov/twra/license_fee_info/LICENSE%20FEE%20STRUCTURE%20RELEASE%20-%20FINAL%20.pdf

 

http://www.tn.gov/twra/license_increase_2014.html

Edited December 20, 2014 by guygene

[Ugly]

 â€œWe employ 46 fewer people Agency-wide now than we did eight years ago, and salaries and benefits such as health insurance have increased significantly,”

 

Their benefits must be outstanding, it doesn't look like the pay is over the top if this list is monthly.

 

http://www.tn.gov/dohr/class_comp/pdf/alpha_comp_plan.pdf

[DaveS]

Can anyone explain the requirements of private land to hunt without a license, such as how many acres and does it need to be an active farm? I've had no luck on the states website.

Family farm or you must reside on it. No acreage requirement. https://www.tn.gov/twra/pdfs/farmlicense.pdf

 

Dave

[Guest Shooter00]

They just need more of our money to squander and mismanage...

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2013/oct/14/state-audit-uncovers-problems-tennessee-wildlife-c/121306/

If I worked for TWRA I think I would be looking for another job if this increase goes through cause a whole bunch of them are going to lose their jobs....

[Ron_TN]

I been skaten by for the last 15 years ......payin ...$00.00.....one good thing about gettin old.... :up:

[kckndrgn]

Family farm or you must reside on it. No acreage requirement. https://www.tn.gov/twra/pdfs/farmlicense.pdf

 

Dave

 

I don't think there is a residency requirement, only ownership of the land and that you are a resident of TN.  I reside in Memphis, but have acreage near Lexington that I hunt one.   Reading the linked PDF, it only says owner, tennents, spouses and children that reside in TN.

I may be wrong, if I am, let me know.

[Ugly]

Family farm or you must reside on it. No acreage requirement. https://www.tn.gov/twra/pdfs/farmlicense.pdf

Dave

Copy and thanks, but what makes it a family farm? Can I buy a home on 5 acres with pasture and nothing growing and qualify?

[mike243]

it dosent have to be a farm just that you own it and you live in Tn. you will need to print a landowner exemption form from twra and i think it asks for property info