To trust or not to trust...why?

[leafinthewind]

I know about the CLEO signature and printing- not worried about either...

 

I hear it takes a bit longer without a trust...again, no problem...

 

I don't plan on leaving it/them to any relatives after I'm gone...

 

So if I just go the CLEO route, will I have any PRACTICAL issues in day to day operations of the NFA item?

 

Will I be able to let friends shoot it (under my supervision) at the range?

 

If I kick off, can my wife legally transport it to a class 3 dealer to sell it as part of the estate?

 

Anything else?

[whitewolf001]

I would see no problem transporting it to a dealer or the local ATF office. When I die there are a few items that will be getting turned in for destruction and some others that will remain in the family.

 

As far as day to day use there would be no differences between an item in your name as an individual or in a trust. Having it in a trust might make selling it easier. Also, in a trust you do not have to worry about access issues like can arise with a NFA item in only your name. Because mine are in a trust, and my wife is on that trust, I can leave without the need to lock them up to prevent her from getting access to them. With an item registered to an individual you have to be mindful of who might have access to it when you are not around. With a trust you can add, or remove, trustees without the need to notify the ATF but as an individual you must ALWAYS be around when someone else is using it. If a friend wants to use one of my items I can add him to the trust, have him sign a piece of paper accepting his appointment as a trustee, then hand the item over for him to use. But I will warn you, as a trustee anyone can sell, or transfer, trust property just like you can so you must be able to trust them. Also, there is some paperwork to keep up with when the items are in the trust but it literally takes 5 minutes to get done when an item is transferred/approved.

 

You can legally transfer the item to a relative for free if the item is in your name. A lot of people do not realize that but it is just like any other transfer. To transfer your NFA item to an heir does not require a trust.

 

Anyone can use your NFA item with you around.

 

As far as the time differences between a trust and individual there is a HUGE difference. But there is a catch, as of right now you cannot transfer and existing item through the eFile system. That is supposedly going to be corrected sometime in the next couple of month. So the time difference between a trust and individual paper filing is going to be similar. But if you can eFile the times are reduced significantly. An individual submission that was approved this year took 344 days while and eFiled submission took 20 days. For me the cost of the trust was worth not having to wait close to a year to get my item. Now if you plan on making your own NFA item you can eFile now with a trust and be approved in a very short time.

 

Anything you can buy you can file a Form 1 and build yourself. Be it a silencer, short barrel rifle or shotgun, destructive device or any other weapon it is perfectly legal to build it yourself once you get approval. Getting approval is no different than doing a Form 4 for a transfer.

Hmmm, the individual transfers I've seen are taking 8-9 months versus a trust filed snail mail which is taking 4-5 months BUT this is what I've seen. Other peoples may be much faster. I want to establish a trust myself and get an E-filed SBR. Is the process pretty self explanatory? Also, how are you supposed to be able to give the required lengths if attaching the two is a felony? Seems like a dumbass catch 22 to me... 

[monkeylizard]

...Nevermind...

Edited December 17, 2014 by monkeylizard

[whitewolf001]

DS, after reading your response, I feel like an idiot...  -_- Thanks for the courteous non-mocking response because let's be honest, you had EVERY opportunity to do so. This particular section is becoming a favorite of mine here on TGO, learning a whole lot and getting to rub some stuff in my buds face that he thought was the gospel for years. (particularly the bit about rifle suppressors able to run wet, heh heh)

Edited December 18, 2014 by whitewolf001

[Oh Shoot]

....

I have also read that a folding stock is measured open, per ATF opinion, but a collapsible stock is measured at its shortest length which is generally the end of the buffer tube...

 

Not according to John Spencer as of 7/11, at least as applied to normal firearms.

 

Q: "How does one accurately measure the overall length of a weapon?

 

A: To determine the overall length of a weapon:

 

- remove non-permanently attached muzzle device, if applicable

- extend or fold out the shoulder stock to its extreme length, if applicable"

etc

 

If there's a more recent directive, I've not seen it. I thought this was generally pretty well acknowledged and had always been thus.  But I don't know about SBR form, maybe it has different rules. Or doesn't really matter. After all, it's still an SBR regardless of OAL long as it has a short barrel.

 

- OS

Edited December 18, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

I will call again and probably end up writing some more letters. I wrote letters last year updating information but I never received the copy I included for them to send back in the SASE I included.

 

I suspect what I posted, and now hid, was wrong. I based that on the answer I got from the ATF. Now I start the process of updating with the ATF several ARs that are SBRd.

 

When measuring for overall length it should be at its longest length, not shortest.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Dolomite_supafly

[Oh Shoot]

Speaking of gun ruling minutiae, here's one for ya that's never been settled by ATF to my knowledge. You could add it to your litany of questions to see what undocumented disinformation you might get by phone. :)

 

So you have an SBR. It's of course clear you can put the SBR into non-NFA configuration (like with 16" barrel, or stripped to receiver) and sell/transfer it as normal Title 1 firearm, no longer under NFA purview.

 

However, what if you started with a Title 1 pistol and SBR'd it? Could you return it to normal Title 1 pistol configuration? 

 

If so, how? Simply remove the stock and declare it a pistol? Or does it stay a SBR that you are simply using without a stock? There is also the "if you retain the parts to make the NFA firearm" clause. Well, does that mean if you retain ANY stock? Or just the one that was on the SBR when it was registered? Or how about the short barrel, does it have to be the same one, or any other short barrel? Or does that even matter since the barrels and stocks are not uniquely identified like the receiver? Etc.

 

Some argue that "once an SBR, always a rifle", as you have "made" an SBR, which is a new firearm, not a modified one, as is going from Title 1 pistol to Title 1 rifle, or back. Others argue the opposite, that because of the "first a pistol" thing, the NFA stamp means nothing as far as returning to pistol.

 

Surely since so many now make SBRs starting with pistols, ATF has been asked this by now, but apparently has evaded the question altogether. Not one of their NFA FAQs address it directly, so everyone just opines around the subject using the ones that are there that speak to other areas of the NFA. Never seen a letter about it either, and they're quite good at ferreting all those out on arfcom if they exist.

 

- OS

Edited December 18, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

I do know that just by removing it from the NFA configuration does not mean it is no longer an NFA item. In order to make a NFA item into a non NFA item you must write the ATF requesting it be removed from the registry.

 

Gordon, not meaning to debate but seems clear that no notification is required, only "recommended". Simple reconfiguration and no retention of certain components removes it from purview.

 

"Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?

    Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS."

 

Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?

    Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA “firearm” is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.

 

Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?

    There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

 

Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual?

    There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA.

 

excerpted from:

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#removal-from-nfa

 

I knew all that, but still leaves question of legality of going from SBR rifle to Title 1 (GCA they call it) pistol.

 

 

- OS

Edited December 18, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

And yet another thing I was told by the ATF that does not follow their writings but it was the local office that told me that when I started loosing confidence when I was calling the national number. I was calling the national number when I was not getting responses to letters I was writing. I have yet to get back a single letter I have written in the last year. I have items that needed their information corrected at the national level and I have no way of knowing whether the letter I wrote made it and if the information was updated. You cannot call the tech branch, which are the ones you write in to for corrections or opinions, and because they never respond by mail how is one supposed to know? At this point I am disgusted at the whole process because here I am with weapons that may, or may not, be configured according to ATF records and I have no way of knowing. 

 

With the NFA lower I told you I was going to turn in for destruction was because I was told I needed to notify them I was removing it from NFA registry in order to sell or give it away unless I was going to sell it as an SBR but no one will buy an SBR lower with MY name on it.

 

 

Assuming those I have spoke to at the ATF know what the hell they are talking about has made me look like more of an idiot than normal and for the last time. I am just going to quit calling them, writing them or answering questions related to NFA stuff. Matter of fact I am pretty disgusted at this because now I get to write more letters, that I will not get a response from, in hopes they update my items in the registry but in the end I will have no clue whether they are or not.

[Oh Shoot]

And yet another thing I was told by the ATF that does not follow their writings but it was the local office that told me that when I started loosing confidence when I was calling the national number. I was calling the national number when I was not getting responses to letters I was writing. I have yet to get back a single letter I have written in the last year. I have items that needed their information corrected at the national level and I have no way of knowing whether the letter I wrote made it and if the information was updated. You cannot call the tech branch, which are the ones you write in to for corrections or opinions, and because they never respond by mail how is one supposed to know? At this point I am disgusted at the whole process because here I am with weapons that may, or may not, be configured according to ATF records and I have no way of knowing. 

 

With the NFA lower I told you I was going to turn in for destruction was because I was told I needed to notify them I was removing it from NFA registry in order to sell or give it away unless I was going to sell it as an SBR but no one will buy an SBR lower with MY name on it.

 

 

Assuming those I have spoke to at the ATF know what the hell they are talking about has made me look like more of an idiot than normal and for the last time. I am just going to quit calling them, writing them or answering questions related to NFA stuff. Matter of fact I am pretty disgusted at this because now I get to write more letters, that I will not get a response from, in hopes they update my items in the registry but in the end I will have no clue whether they are or not.

 

I guess I'd just print out their FAQs and keep a dated notarized copy somewhere safe and do what it says.

 

The gray area even in the FAQs and all letters I have seen is the "retention of parts" to make a NFA firearm, Which goes back to the SBR to pistol question.

 

Like, what parts? Any short barrel? Any stock? Etc. If so, there's no way with what you own that you could ever "remove" the lower from NFA purview regardless of what you tell the ATF. I suppose you'd have to sell/give it away or destroy it.

 

Is there actually a provision for "turning it in" to ATF?

 

- OS

[Dolomite_supafly]

I guess I'd just print out their FAQs and keep a dated notarized copy somewhere safe and do what it says.

 

The gray area even in the FAQs and all letters I have seen is the "retention of parts" to make a NFA firearm, Which goes back to the SBR to pistol question.

 

Like, what parts? Any short barrel? Any stock? Etc. If so, there's no way with what you own that you could ever "remove" the lower from NFA purview regardless of what you tell the ATF. I suppose you'd have to sell/give it away or destroy it.

 

Is there actually a provision for "turning it in" to ATF?

 

- OS

Yep, doing it real soon.

 

All you need to do it take the original form with the gun and turn it in to the local office for destruction. Not going to be able to shoot suppressed 22 until I get a new one approved. I am also probably going to turn in an AR lower to prevent confusion, just need to strip it down first.

[Oh Shoot]

Yep, doing it real soon.

 

All you need to do it take the original form with the gun and turn it in to the local office for destruction. Not going to be able to shoot suppressed 22 until I get a new one approved. I am also probably going to turn in an AR lower to prevent confusion, just need to strip it down first.

 

Thanks, never heard of anyone doing that cept someone who had inherited an unstamped MC or something.

 

One thing though. It costs 2 bills to transfer existing NFA lower to your trust, and 2 bills to register a new one to trust also, right? If so, why spend the purchase money on a new one and toss the already registered one?

 

Even if you've already got another lower to put into trust, that still leaves you one less no-strings non-NFA one laying around you've already bought. Maybe I don't really grok the details fully, though.

 

 

- OS

Edited December 18, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

The biggest reason to get rid of some is they are registered in MY name, not the trust, so when I die the process of getting those items transferred is more complicated than with the trust. And that is not something I want any of my family to have to deal with.

 

Yes I could just transfer the existing items into the trust but the lower has issues and the 22 can was my first one and although it works great its replacement will be a lot better. I may not toss them, I have to think on it. The lower and the silencer are a matched pair now with instructions to grab the entire gun and walk it into the local ATF office if I die.

 

I did get a response from the ATF this morning via email.

 

Trust me when I say you are not being unlawful by possessing this firearm and the overall length not matching with the registry… However, we do wish to get it resolved so everything is accurate.

That was in response to an email asking how I can confirm the registry is updated with the current information. What they really need to do is tell the secretaries to only answer the phones and not questions. We have discussed some of the crazy opinions I have gotten over the phone and how they can change based on who you talk to.

[Oh Shoot]

The biggest reason to get rid of some is ....

Thanks for the detailed answer. I would have asked just in PM, but figure anything any of us are willing to share here may be instructive (and hopefully interesting too :)) for the part of the TGO community interested in such matters.
 

We have discussed some of the crazy opinions I have gotten over the phone and how they can change based on who you talk to.

 

Yeah, and the one that really floored me was the response you apparently got from Kenneth Melson, the guy who wrote the actual official ruling on ATF site (and not just some letter to an individual) regarding the pistol-rifle-pistol and possessive construction issues -- who then told you stuff that directly contradicted his own whole treatise, and of course the Supreme Court decision it paraphrased.

 

Still wonder if y'all might have been talking at cross purposes or misunderstanding each other or something though, as seems he'd have to be tripping on something to do that. Or maybe he's just gotten senile since 2011, who knows!

 

- OS

Edited December 18, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Fourtyfive]

Thinking of starting a trust. Questions.....

I have a suppressor on an individual form. Will I have to pay to transfer it to the trust ?

Did I understand that an individual registered item can be transferred to a family member after my death for free ?

Other than floating the registered items among trust members is there any other big advantage to going trust ?

What is required info on other members of a trust when it is created , do you have to do background and finger printing of all members when it is started ?

[Fourtyfive]

What is the sole purpose of the Form 5 ?

So if I make a trust and my son is on it , he can not use my suppressor which is on the individual in my name unless I am with him.

[Hozzie]

The disadvantage is any trustee can do anything you can do so you MUST trust your trustees 100%. Been plenty of cases where a trustee sold trust property without the trust "owner" knowing.

I don't think this is 100% correct. It depends on how the trust is written. I am the only one able to sell anything on mine until I die. I am also the only one able to have the trust edited if needed.

[Fourtyfive]

I don't think this is 100% correct. It depends on how the trust is written. I am the only one able to sell anything on mine until I die. I am also the only one able to have the trust edited if needed.

I would like that ....

[Hozzie]

Chip Cain did mine. I would call him and ask. John Wells is also a vendor if you have already talked to him.

[jwhjwh54]

John wells is great. Just got my approval today with a trust he did for me 

[Kyron]

how much does Chip Cain charge?

[Hozzie]

Give him a call or PM him.  He is easy to work with.  I am guessing his price is in line with most others.   I was happy with mine and what I paid.

[Pntblnk]

I have PM's into both Chip Cain and John Wells so will see what they come back with respect to cost and options.

 

I am curious though on how these trusts would apply to a person with a non class 3 weapons collection.  I do not have any class 3's currently but would like to protect my rights for future purchases if I so choose.  (SBR's and cans have always fascinated me.) My most significant concern is the ability to protect my current collection, allow family to use my weapons and the ability to pass along my weapons to my sons without tax ramifications when the time comes.  I also have family in another state (Indiana) and read something about relatives in other states being on the trust but it was a bit ambiguous and seemed to depend on the specific state.  

 

I realize that the looming  passage of ATF 41 potentially accelerates my need but wondering about the benefits of the trust as I sit now.    Thanks to all in advance that have already ventured down this path and are willing to share your experiences.