7 Most Common Defensive Shooting Myths

[jacob]

No offense, but you're not the standard setter for the entire gun-carrying community. Some people don't deem it necessary to take a life if they believe they can avoid it. If they're successful, how is that a bad thing? You shoot to stop the threat, not to kill. If the person dies, well then that's their fault for putting themselves in a life-ending situation.

I dont claim to be the standard. But I would much rather shoot center mass where I have been trained to shoot to minimize my chances of prosecution if I ever have to use my gun to defend myself. My point in the comment you quoted is that there shouldn't be an intent of malice if you are forced into that situation. And why in the hell are you carrying a gun for defense in the first place if you have no intent on defending your life with the intention of possibly taking another?

[Omega]

Medically his diagrams on penetration vs. weapon caliber are incorrect, at least as he explains them. Trying to punch through the sternum to get at the heart/lungs is NOT the most efficient way to incapacitate a threat with a sub-rifle caliber, especially a lower power one. Though he cites a forum poster from THR as his "source" so they may have been prepared by someone with little or no experience in clinical anatomy.  :2cents:

Though not to scale, they are close enough to demonstrate what he is trying to get at.  Though the sternum can deflect a bullet, I dare say that even a .22 has a very good chance of getting through; there is a reason why its one of the most favored calibers for assassins.  I have other saved articles which give very good information to consider for those that care to study such as distance, caliber, angle etc.  Ill post those docs, or links if anyone is interested.  I have seen many wounds from projectiles that one would consider impossible to get that far into a body, while at the same time I have seen large caliber wounds that I though should of been a kill.  The point is that you have to take the highest percentage shot and hope its good enough. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Couple of points....

 

I had a girlfriend back in the day who was involved in a pretty horrendous car wreck when she was 17. Car flipped and she was ejected. Broke her pelvis in 3 places yet she was able to crawl almost 100 yards back to the highway to flag down help.....Sorry but I'm just not a believer in "pelvic shots are sure stoppers". 

 

My great grandfather was involved in a gunfight in Carbondale Alabama (Mining town north of Birmingham) in 1920...actually it was a rolling series of gunfights....The whole thing stemmed from an argument during a mining strike . He was shot first, but hit peripherally...my great grandfather was tough dude who had been a miner and had served in the Spanish American war in Cuba where he had been wounded so he knew already what being shot felt like. He was not terribly impressed with being shot with a pistol so he pulled his and the other guy was hit multiple times and was dead right there....

 

After that ANOTHER guy shot him with a rifle. The rifleman jumped behind a tree for cover. Great Granddad yelled for him to "come out and fight fair"...at which point the guy stepped out from behind the tree and great granddad emptied his 1911 into him and pounced on him yelling "you killed me now I'm gonna kill you" (apparently the rifle wound really hurt) and proceeded to cave in his skull with the now empty pistol......after that he got up and ran off with several shotgun wielding assailants in hot pursuit.....they opened up on him with the shotguns and after being hit multiple times he "surrendered". He lived 26 more hours until the wounds got septic and he died of what they referred to as "lead poisoning". During that 26 hour time he was conscious and aware and was able to relate what had happened to the doctors and that is how the story was related in the newspaper... the peripheral pistol shots he received had little effect, the rifle shot was painful but not vital, but the multiple shotgun hits...those got his attention.

 

So I'm not a big believer in "stopping power" in pistols, not a big believer in pelvic shots or...."seemingly random bullet placement". People shot  multiple times in the "nipple to neck thoracic zone" tend to stop what they are doing and go to sleep. People shot elsewhere...it is a crap shoot and some people will fight on even after receiving painful injuries.....but as with everything YMMV.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[E4 No More]

Just the same as they would if shot in the groin. I don't think odds are equal that you may hit something vital. If they are already within 21ft of you most would argue you're screwed regardless. If you guys believe people can't move with broken or even shattered pelvis', they can. I feel that I have a 6"-8" deviation of the center line I can hit and still do well at stopping the threat. I would not feel that way when aiming at a groin, especially not with a 22lr as I mentioned earlier. I highly doubt either aiming point will stop an attacker with one round fired anyway, I have no illusions about that. We carry pistols, not death rays.

I don't care where you aim to defend yourself, just stop the threat, expeditiously.

I wasn't speaking of 22LR, BTW; I was speaking of a more realistic protection caliber. If someone is going to charge me with a knife I'm going to rapid fire one to the lower abdomen and then multiples into center mass until dude stops or kills me. I shoot to stop; not shoot a couple rounds and see if it works. :)

[2.ooohhh]

Though not to scale, they are close enough to demonstrate what he is trying to get at.  Though the sternum can deflect a bullet, I dare say that even a .22 has a very good chance of getting through; there is a reason why its one of the most favored calibers for assassins.  I have other saved articles which give very good information to consider for those that care to study such as distance, caliber, angle etc.  Ill post those docs, or links if anyone is interested.  I have seen many wounds from projectiles that one would consider impossible to get that far into a body, while at the same time I have seen large caliber wounds that I though should of been a kill.  The point is that you have to take the highest percentage shot and hope its good enough. 

There is no problem with the scale only the area he's instructing you to take aim. The heart, be it big or small, is always well protected by the rib cage, same with the lungs. I saw a thoracic surgeon stop and have to take a brief break after the patient's sternum stopped a pneumatic bone saw cold in the OR recently. That was in a controlled environment where we had every tool required and the knowledge to cut and spread the patient's rib cage. Thinking a pistol round is going to blow right through that with any regularity is a questionable at best. In the diagram below if you draw a triangle around the upper 3 "9"s you are shooting in the most efficient area for a pistol caliber bullet to take down an unarmored human target. I see many trainers try and move this area up further to nearly fully cover the sternum which puts the bullet in to what is essentially one of the best naturally protected spots on the human body, when there are completely unprotected ALSO VERY CRITICAL bits just a few inches lower on the torso.

 

The silhouette target below has COM correctly designated as it should be for handgun rounds. Where the bullseye "X" is you could put a scalpel straight through to the spine with minimal resistance, making it an excellent target for handgun rounds.

 

 

[KKing]

I wasn't speaking of 22LR, BTW; I was speaking of a more realistic protection caliber. If someone is going to charge me with a knife I'm going to rapid fire one to the lower abdomen and then multiples into center mass until dude stops or kills me. I shoot to stop; not shoot a couple rounds and see if it works. :)

Oh I know you weren't referring to 22lr, I meant earlier on in this thread. Just for sake of argument in your scenario I'd argue that you are greatly decreasing your probability of effectiveness by taking the time to change your point of aim and trying to find your sights again. That's probably splitting hairs, though. I do love good discussion

[Omega]

There is no problem with the scale only the area he's instructing you to take aim. The heart, be it big or small, is always well protected by the rib cage, same with the lungs. I saw a thoracic surgeon stop and have to take a brief break after the patient's sternum stopped a pneumatic bone saw cold in the OR recently. That was in a controlled environment where we had every tool required and the knowledge to cut and spread the patient's rib cage. Thinking a pistol round is going to blow right through that with any regularity is a questionable at best. In the diagram below if you draw a triangle around the upper 3 "9"s you are shooting in the most efficient area for a pistol caliber bullet to take down an unarmored human target. I see many trainers try and move this area up further to nearly fully cover the sternum which puts the bullet in to what is essentially one of the best naturally protected spots on the human body, when there are completely unprotected ALSO VERY CRITICAL bits just a few inches lower on the torso.

The silhouette target below has COM correctly designated as it should be for handgun rounds. Where the bullseye "X" is you could put a scalpel straight through to the spine with minimal resistance, making it an excellent target for handgun rounds.

Ok, that target is close, but without trying to pick nits it also is inaccurate. Again, without getting into 3d, angles, caliber etc. The place to aim is the sternum notch, which is the place where both sides of the ribs meet in the middle. Here is what we train with, this,one is the one in color which we use to see the target area. In the shoot house, its more subdued so you have to be close up to see the area hit.



The red portion is a hv target area for rifle, get hit there and its bad news, but as you can see there are other target areas. In your graphic, I would aim just below the 9 but above the x. The problem with those type targets is that the human anatomy does not quite allow an equal distance between rings which gives you what you see. But if you look at the other one, it would still do alot of damage in the 10 ring. You can also see what you would hit in the pelvic area if you are so inclined.

More and more we are going with 3d targets because when you turn it to different angles, you need a different POA to get the same effect.

[bersaguy]

Ok, because my post created such a discussion on it that I thought I would call my friend and ask him a few questions. He cleared up his reasoning for why he taught his wife as he did and why she does not carry a larger caliber hand gun. His wife is 5ft.0in. tall and weighs a hefty 102 lbs. She has weak wrists and the 22lr Semi auto she used and uses is about all she can handle safely. She also had an issue when trying to shoot center mass rounds and hitting there because she always ending up shooting high in the head or neck area or missing the target all together. He decided to teach her to shoot low so when the bullet went it would be more center mass. Well, it worked to a point. She was hitting the target on a regular basis from the groin area to the Naval area and sometimes above the naval. Which a lot of practice he had her hitting in an area he felt she would be able to defend herself with using the 22lr.

 

He also thought there would never come a time she would ever need to use it but he was thrilled to hear she was ok when the call came in to meet her and the officers at Goodlettesville police department. Another witness said he saw the car the other bad guy took off in and followed it and got tag number and the other bad guy was also caught 45 minutes later. The officer said he would have to keep the weapon till they could run a ballistics and then it would be returned. She was able to pick up her gun 2 days later. She did not hit the bad guy directly in the groin but 2 rounds she fired were 2.7 and 2.1 inches above his actual groin(private parts) but he went down like a ton of bricks two other witnesses stated and set in screaming. They said the reason she did shoot low and not let the gun jump striking higher was because of adrenal which allowed her to hold the gun more on target.

  Hope this explains more about why he taught her the way he did and it did very possibly save her life because the bad guy did have a switch blade knife in his hand and it was open with his prints on it....................... :ugh: :ugh:

[DaveTN]

Myth: Being shot by anything will stop most attackers.

Fact: If you are shooting someone chances are very good that you are facing an armed attacker (armed robbery, Car Jacking, Home invasion, etc.), you and you alone are responsible for your life and the lives of those you are protecting. It is your responsibility to have a weapon that you know will fire and a caliber that you are sure has the ability to make your attacker unable or unwilling to fire his weapon at you. Failure to have that ability and training could possibly result in your death or death of those you are protecting.

You will probably react in the way you train. So if you think shot placement will save your life you damn well better have the ability to pull it off in a life threatening encounter. Whether or not the assailant dies is immaterial if he pulls the trigger on you.

[A.J. Holst]

Let's not forgot to place as many shots on target until target disappears from site picture...

[E4 No More]

Oh I know you weren't referring to 22lr, I meant earlier on in this thread. Just for sake of argument in your scenario I'd argue that you are greatly decreasing your probability of effectiveness by taking the time to change your point of aim and trying to find your sights again. That's probably splitting hairs, though. I do love good discussion

Just for counterpoint: I'd argue that at that distance and speed I wouldn't be using the sights, and a small shift of POA is not significant during recovery from recoil. As always, everything is dependent upon the unique circumstances of each situation. I could argue that most likely individuals are going to either be paralyzed with inaction, or react without thinking. The first class that I was sent to after becoming a policeman was "Red-handled Gun" which taught you to rapidly transition through the critical stages of thought to action during deadly encounters. At close range it's pretty much draw and fire making instinct shooting more important to me. Since I am loathe to go to Stone's River range I find myself wanting to purchase some property in the sticks so that I'm free to do as I wish without the worry of range Nazis or other patrons.

[2.ooohhh]

Ok, that target is close, but without trying to pick nits it also is inaccurate. Again, without getting into 3d, angles, caliber etc. The place to aim is the sternum notch, which is the place where both sides of the ribs meet in the middle. Here is what we train with, this,one is the one in color which we use to see the target area. In the shoot house, its more subdued so you have to be close up to see the area hit.



The red portion is a hv target area for rifle, get hit there and its bad news, but as you can see there are other target areas. In your graphic, I would aim just below the 9 but above the x. The problem with those type targets is that the human anatomy does not quite allow an equal distance between rings which gives you what you see. But if you look at the other one, it would still do alot of damage in the 10 ring. You can also see what you would hit in the pelvic area if you are so inclined.

More and more we are going with 3d targets because when you turn it to different angles, you need a different POA to get the same effect.

 

We are in agreement, this is a great target, especially for rifles, go back and look at the article you posted on defensive accuracy. THAT is what I took issue with. Figure 3 in that(at the top of page 4) is incorrect with a lower powered round IMHO the circles should move down the chest slightly, there is NO viable explanation as to why "RyanM" feels the descending aorta and the inferior vena cava(orange on the leftmost diagram) are not a viable target for service pistols and "mouseguns". This diagram should be IMO emphasizing how a slightly lower center of mass can make a difference in caliber much less relevant by making use of softer targets, instead he just calls the kidneys "pretty far back" so unattainable with a pistol. The liver which is missing on the rightmost diagram for instance sits less than an inch under the skin where the lobes are exposed just under the xiphoid process. 

[tnguy]

Let's not forgot to place as many shots on target until target disappears from site picture...

 

Though don't forget he (or she) may have accomplices.

[dcloudy777]

Shoot at the middle of whatever part of the threat you can see. 

 

Greater margin for error is far more important in a SD situation than physiological effect of where the bullet goes in the body.

 

To put it another way, you're much, much more likely to lose a fight because you missed the bad guy than because you hit him and didn't do incapacitating damage.

 

Now, in a happy coincidence, the middle of a threatening human target is usually the thoracic cavity, which is full of heart, lungs, liver, and other important stuff that people need to keep fighting.