Does a j-frame make you lazy

[Parrothead]

I could probably edit the title to say "pocket gun" rather than j frame but the same principle remains. Have these small frame, low capacity guns kept you from carrying a compact or high capacity defensive weapon?

Up until recently, I've always tried to carry at least a compact size handgun. I've tried several pocket size pistols and noting was 100% reliable--until I went to the j-frame. Now I have to have to "talk myself into" carrying a larger gun IWB for every day carry. Normally, I resist the convenience of just the j frame and put on a 30sf and let to j frame ride pocket. But, the challenge is real.

Am I alone?

[Erik88]

I feel undergunned the majority of the time I carry my Ruger LCR. I carry it maybe 10% of the time and a Glock 19 the other 90%.

 

When people say that Glocks(or any other gun around this size) are too "much" for carry I have to shake my head. Those are the people that just are not trying or using any excuse to not carry.

 

I have a coworker that won't carry his G23 so he bought a Shield. Now he says the Shield is too big so he just bought a P938. Something tells me he will never find a gun to carry. These guns are fine, he's just making excuses.

[suspiciousmind]

I IWB carry my Beretta 92 everyday and pocket carry an LCP for a bug.

Don't be a ninny.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Math never takes the day off. A J Frame is 5 rounds....period. Not much margin for error there especially if you have more than one assailant. Fortunately most people will never have to pull a gun to defend themself........just like most people will never be in a serious car accident. But for those that are....they are generally glad they had a seatbelt on.

 

If you are positive that you will only ever be confronted with non committed bad guys who are more afraid of you than you are of them, and that they will all be loners who act alone, then a J frame will probably be fine. But when we start adding layers of difficulty (and levels of 21st century reality of street robbery) suddenly the bad guys are not the tweeker who will run at the first sign of resistance but more experienced street criminals who live a life of violence,the reality that pistols are poor stoppers and often take multiple hits to stop committed opponnents (look at the Michael Brown shooting....that took 6 or 7 to stop him)  and more than not there will be at least 1 more accomplice involved whether you see them initially or not....then add in the possibility of being somewhere when an active shooter decides to kick off a CNN level event and the REALITY that ISIS is planning similar type events for America like the Westgate Mall incident in Africa and suddenly that J Frame gets less and less appealing.

 

Having said that....if you feel a J Frame is all you need then rock on....and hope 5 is enough. A J Frame is certainly better than a sharp stick or a stearn word. But it is far from optimal. Just know the down sides and be prepared and have a plan to work around them.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Parrothead]

Math never takes the day off. A J Frame is 5 rounds....period. Not much margin for error there especially if you have more than one assailant. Fortunately most people will never have to pull a gun to defend themself........just like most people will never be in a serious car accident. But for those that are....they are generally glad they had a seatbelt on.

If you are positive that you will only ever be confronted with non committed bad guys who are more afraid of you than you are of them, and that they will all be loners who act alone, then a J frame will probably be fine. But when we start adding layers of difficulty (and levels of 21st century reality of street robbery) suddenly the bad guys are not the tweeker who will run at the first sign of resistance but more experienced street criminals who live a life of violence,the reality that pistols are poor stoppers and often take multiple hits to stop committed opponnents (look at the Michael Brown shooting....that took 6 or 7 to stop him) and more than not there will be at least 1 more accomplice involved whether you see them initially or not....then add in the possibility of being somewhere when an active shooter decides to kick off a CNN level event and the REALITY that ISIS is planning similar type events for America like the Westgate Mall incident in Africa and suddenly that J Frame gets less and less appealing.

Having said that....if you feel a J Frame is all you need then rock on....and hope 5 is enough. A J Frame is certainly better than a sharp stick or a stearn word. But it is far from optimal. Just know the down sides and be prepared and have a plan to work around them.

Thanks for your feedback. I understand what you are saying. It's that voice of "Murphy" that speaks to me almost every morning. The day I don't pack a "proper defensive weapon" will be the day I need six rounds.

My post was more aimed at the mindset of the pocket gun and its use as a primary carry weapon. As tempting as it is, I have avoided in most cases. At times, I will pack it solo but it's typically situations where I would have gone unarmed without a j frame in the stable.

To boil it down, I am curious if the aggressive marketing of pocket guns and the ease of carry may have changed what the majority of folk carry for self defense. I know the guy/gals on this forum are typically gun fanatics and would be the outlier on any real study. I'm just wondering if the perception of these weapons may have changed. It's no secret, these guns have flooded the market. Are they being carried or sitting in a safe?

[56FordGuy]

Math never takes the day off. A J Frame is 5 rounds....period. Not much margin for error there especially if you have more than one assailant. Fortunately most people will never have to pull a gun to defend themself........just like most people will never be in a serious car accident. But for those that are....they are generally glad they had a seatbelt on...

 

Having said that....if you feel a J Frame is all you need then rock on....and hope 5 is enough. A J Frame is certainly better than a sharp stick or a stearn word. But it is far from optimal. Just know the down sides and be prepared and have a plan to work around them.

 

I carry a J frame, and rarely anything else. Lots of factors in play in that decision, including where I live and the places I go. The odds of me every needing a defensive handgun are very low, so I feel comfortable with 5 rounds of .38 special. If I went different places or lived in a different area I might be more inclined to carry a different weapon, but in my situation the J frame works well. I don't wear a Nomex suit or HANS device to drive to work, but if I drove a racecar it would be a different story. Different situations call for different solutions. 

[Jamie Jackson]

I do carry a J Frame...but 99.9% of the time as a second handgun...accessible primarily to my "other" hand. My primary is a Glock 19 or 17 and spare mags.

 

I don't live or work in a high risk area...but I definitely acknowledge that such events as Randy described above can and do happen. I have had far too many patients either drive in or walk in with multiple handgun wounds to feel confident that 5 rounds may be all I need.

 

I have lived and worked in that high risk area and carried 2 Glocks during that time frame...but the potential exists even now...so it's a comfort, not a burden. But it's a choice we all must make.

 

Parrothead:

I understand the point you are making. And Yes, there are folks that carry daily, and periodically, that feel comfortable just knowing that they have "something" besides that sharp stick available to them. I hope they never need that tool, and the odds are they never will. I'm just not a very good gambler...

 

Yes, there are times, that 0.1% I mentioned, when I will have just my J Frame...but that would be a non-permissive environment where I would otherwise be unarmed...and I do feel under-gunned during that period of time.

 

 

Handgun rounds are woefully inadequate. Predators hunt in packs. And Murphy follows close at hand. We all have to live with the choices we make and I don't judge anyone that chooses to do anything differently from what I do...it's a personal decision.

 

:2cents:

[daddyo]

I've been carrying my SP101 .357 with two reloads just because it's easier to carry than one of the semi-autos with extra mags.

 

I'm lazy. I admit it.  :rofl:

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Thanks for your feedback. I understand what you are saying. It's that voice of "Murphy" that speaks to me almost every morning. The day I don't pack a "proper defensive weapon" will be the day I need six rounds.

My post was more aimed at the mindset of the pocket gun and its use as a primary carry weapon. As tempting as it is, I have avoided in most cases. At times, I will pack it solo but it's typically situations where I would have gone unarmed without a j frame in the stable.

To boil it down, I am curious if the aggressive marketing of pocket guns and the ease of carry may have changed what the majority of folk carry for self defense. I know the guy/gals on this forum are typically gun fanatics and would be the outlier on any real study. I'm just wondering if the perception of these weapons may have changed. It's no secret, these guns have flooded the market. Are they being carried or sitting in a safe?

Believe it or not based on my previous post, I think it is GOOD actually that there is such a proliferation of small guns available because if nothing else, some people who previously would have not carried ANYTHING at all are at least carrying something. And something is always better than nothing. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[A.J. Holst]

The only thing I can add is I completed a training seminar with Randy with my SP101 after my CZ went down.

 

If you do not practice reloading your wheelgun in your spare time, when you have to reload under pressure, you are in for a rude surprise. Trust me.

 

You don't want the BG mocking you as Randy did me, "let's all wait while AJ parties like it's 1899"

 

I now believe in the New York Reload, the best reload for a wheelie is a second wheelie.

[tyguy]

After carrying an LCP almost exclusively for a year or more, I finally decided that if I were to ever need to draw I would want more. After swapping back to a compact .45 I don't think I've carried the Ruger since. On a few occasions I've grabbed the wife's j-frame as a smaller option. 5x rounds of .38 +p sounds much better than 6x .380, but 10x rounds of .45 helps ease my mind. :)

[Jamie Jackson]

After carrying an LCP almost exclusively for a year or more, I finally decided that if I were to ever need to draw I would want more. After swapping back to a compact .45 I don't think I've carried the Ruger since. On a few occasions I've grabbed the wife's j-frame as a smaller option. 5x rounds of .38 +p sounds much better than 6x .380, but 10x rounds of .45 helps ease my mind. :)

 

 

Actually all 3 isn't that unreasonable. :cool:

[dcloudy777]

It depends:

 

Just throwing on a J and carrying it because it's small and light is lazy.

 

Learning the J well enough to effectively fight with it is gonna mean more work than a lazy person is gonna want to put in.  :pleased:

[Jamie Jackson]

It depends:

 

Just throwing on a J and carrying it because it's small and light is lazy.

 

Learning the J well enough to effectively fight with it is gonna mean more work than a lazy person is gonna want to put in.  :pleased:

 

 

There is a lot of truth here folks. It requires a great deal of dedication, skill, and knowing and accepting the limitations.

 

There are a few folks out there to emulate in this regards, Claude Werner is one of them. (aka Head Hunter)

I have only "interacted" with him during my time on TPI. A couple of my friends trained with him.

But my J frame is what I refer to as a "Werner Setup" as I put it together based on his recommendations.

 

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/claude-werner/

 

I would still want at least 2 of them though...

[Erik88]

It depends:

 

Just throwing on a J and carrying it because it's small and light is lazy.

 

Learning the J well enough to effectively fight with it is gonna mean more work than a lazy person is gonna want to put in.  :pleased:

 

This is exactly what I was going to say. The people who claim gun X is too big/heavy are just being pansies IMO. If my scrawny ass can hide a Glock 19 then so can you.

[2.ooohhh]

The j frame is not for the lazy, it takes practice to be good with a short barreled revolver. I would guess I put 5000 rounds through mine after inheriting them before I was happy with my accuracy with them, and I still take them to the range more often than anything else. I would bet I have more trigger time on them than any other gun short of the Marlin rifle that was my first and only gun for a decade or so.

[Erik88]

The j frame is not for the lazy, it takes practice to be good with a short barreled revolver. I would guess I put 5000 rounds through mine after inheriting them before I was happy with my accuracy with them, and I still take them to the range more often than anything else. I would bet I have more trigger time on them than any other gun short of the Marlin rifle that was my first and only gun for a decade or so.

 

There is nothing wrong with carrying a J frame if you practice with it and feel confident. I'm not willing to invest the money and time to be a great shot with my LCR which is why I don't carry it often. Also, if the need ever arises and I have to draw my Glock, I'm going to feel a lot more confident than I would with my LCR.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Yeah, the J frame is not the ideal gun for the "occasional shooter". It really is as some other instructors have put it...an "expert's gun". Think about it. You have a 1 pound gun with a 12 to 15 pound trigger pull and a tiny little sight radius and often tiny little "nubs" for sights that make military issue 1911s look like target sights.

 

I feel pretty confident with my glock of scoring thoracic zone hits at 35 to 50 yards....but with the J Frame I would not feel comfy with it past 15 to 20 yards if there was a real "life altering penalty" for misses.

 

Having said that, yes I know you can cock the hammer for farther shots...IF your gun has an external hammer. Mine are all the "centennial" models and as such are hammerless and Double Action Only. So I have no choice but to focus intently on pressing a 15 lb trigger as smoothly as I can. Not ideal for "across the parking lot " kind of work.   

 

After the Colorado movie theater shooting everyone was talking about how they'd have hauled out their gun and stopped it. Maybe....but only if they carried a gun that they could realistically score hits with across the theater without also hitting other innocent victims. Basically I view the j frame like I do a derringer...a very close range limited capacity self defense weapon with few options for solving more complex problems. ANd if that is what you are going to carry you need to MASTER that 12-15 lb trigger pull because it is far easier to jerk that trigger enough to misalign a 2 inch barrel enough to miss than it is to do the same with a 5Lb (or less ) trigger on a bigger gun with longer sight radius. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Q-tip]

Don't forget to factor in body type. Makes a big difference in what can be concealed easily. I also don't like IWB carry, but granted I haven't spent a lot of money to try a system I like. My P938 OWB is the right balance of comfort, accuracy, and capacity for me with the 7rd magazine. I shoot it well, the trigger pull is short, and i have the same capacity as a full size 1911 in 9mm. Everybody has to compromise somewhere. 

[Smith]

Seemed to work for a lot of cops and detectives for a loooong time, still does for a lot of people.
Better options? Maybe, but do I really need a 4x4 for that rare occasion, or will the 4 cylinder compact do for 99.9% off the driving most people do.
Me thinks some people over think.

[10-Ring]

I feel ya OP.  I've thought the same thing.  I bought a TCP as a backup but it has become my primary.  Previously my primary was a G23 or 27.  The flip side is that I carry it ALL the time.  Day to day I feel comfortable with the TCP and I actually shoot it rather well.  If I have to go somewhere shifty for work or I'm going on a roadtrip a Glock or 1911 will get to go with me.

[JAB]

To my mind, given the area where I live, the places I frequent, my lifestyle and so on - and given the very low likelihood that I will ever even need to draw my firearm at all to defend myself - I would posit that I have a greater chance of being killed by falling space debris than of being in a situation where the capacity of a j-frame isn't 'enough', where I am going to need to 'score hits' with a handgun in self defense at what I would honestly consider rifle, not self defense handgun, ranges/distances yet not be able to find cover to get behind in order to reload.  Could it happen?  Sure - and a lingering chunk of Sputnik could finally leave its low Earth orbit after 60 odd years and konk me on the noggin' but it ain't likely.  This is, of course, just my thinking and not meant to challenge or antagonize anyone else.

[JAB]

This is exactly what I was going to say. The people who claim gun X is too big/heavy are just being pansies IMO. If my scrawny ass can hide a Glock 19 then so can you.

 

I kind of see your point.  I mean, if I owned a Glock I'd want to hide it, too :rofl: .

 

In seriousness, though, keep in mind that blanket statements are often invalid.  Everyone's situation is different.  A personal example:

 

I used to kind of be of the mindset that anyone could carry at least a 'compact' size gun if they chose (even though I didn't necessarily always choose to do so.)  After my recent surgery, however, my eyes were opened as to the lack of validity in that opinion.   I was unable to wear anything other than sweat pants or gym shorts due to the surgery wound (a roughly nine or ten inch long gash starting just above my navel and running downward that was left partially open so it could drain.)  Forget concealing a larger handgun - I wouldn't even be able to open carry one.  Any sort of weight in the pockets of those things and the pants will quickly be around your ankles.  This meant that in order to carry anything - wallet, keys, flashlight and so on - I had to use a small 'man bag'.  Even a 'fanny pack' wouldn't work because it would have had to go around my waist and would have caused the same problems as the waistband of 'standard' type pants.  For that reason, my P3AT was about it for what I could carry and that had to be in the aforementioned 'man bag'.  Yeah, I know some folks carry a bigger gun in a bigger bag (like a messenger bag, etc.) but that would be a lot slower to access than the P3AT in the much smaller bag I was using - not to mention I don't want to haul a messenger bag around all the time.

 

Even now that I have returned to work I have to wear very loose fitting slacks with an elastic waistband.  I am wearing suspenders with them as I still cannot wear a belt.  This means belt/waistband carry is out.  The fanny pack is still out, too.  A belly band is also not an option.  I don't consider carrying anything larger than a P3AT or j-frame in an ankle holster to be practical even if I could access it quickly and easily enough when needed.  So, even with slacks and suspenders pocket carry or using the man bag are pretty much my options.  Hopefully that is a temporary situation for me but I am sure there are a lot of people with permanent issues who absolutely cannot carry anything much larger than a pocket gun.

Edited December 17, 2014 by JAB

[monkeylizard]

JAB, was that you with the double shoulder rig?

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/84074-i-saw-the-goofiest-thing-yesterday/?p=1219093

 

 

:D

Edited December 17, 2014 by monkeylizard

[JAB]

JAB, was that you with the double shoulder rig?

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/84074-i-saw-the-goofiest-thing-yesterday/?p=1219093

 

 

:D

 

Ha!  Nope.  Although when I saw that thread yesterday I did have to pause and consider it (NOT!)

Edited December 17, 2014 by JAB