Switching from Mini-14 to AR-15

[dawgdoc]

Two years ago, I decided that I wanted a rifle for target shooting with a secondary function of SHTF gun should "something" happen. I debated between an AR, AK, and the Mini-14. I settled on the Mini-14 at that time for two reasons--price and reputation for reliability.

Over that time, my original Mini-14 was sent back to Ruger three times for repeated failure to extract problems; on the third time, they replaced the entire gun. I gave the replacement a chance, but after about 200 rounds with more than a few jams, I was getting frustrated. The kicker was when a case got stuck so bad that I had to use a hammer on the charging handle to get it free. So the replacement was sent back to Ruger; this time I just asked for a refund because I couldn't trust the Mini-14. I received a call this week that they were sending a refund (fortunately I had the original receipts). Unfortunately, I have a few Mini-specific accessories like magazines, an ATI folding stock, and Tech Sights that I will now have to try to sell. I have a feeling it will be like selling replacement headlights for an Edsel.

So, I have been looking at ARs this week. Most of my knowledge comes from the internet and the gun shop employees. I have looked at the AR basic guides on various websites, and I have read various first-time AR threads on a few message boards.

Right now, I don't think that I will be attaching anything to the handgaurd, and the round handgaurd seems to feel right. The only thing that I could forsee wanting to add would be a light (maybe). I saw a picture of an AR with a round handgaurd, but it looked like it had a narrow rail on the bottom. So, in terms of future proofing, is that a viable option for a light, or is a quad rail necessary?

Also, the opinions on forward assists seems to be that most people never used them. Dust covers, on the other hand, seem to be useful, but I only have other's frame of reference as to their utility. Of ~$700 guns that I have looked at, some have dust covers and forward assists, but others do not.

I'm also divided on buying complete gun versus building. The main reason for me to buy complete would be reliability, versus cost saving, learning experience, and possibly choosing an exact configuration with a build.

It was somewhat weird when I was handling the guns--my muscle memory from the Mini-14 had me trying to rock the magazines into place. It also seemed the guns were lighter, but that might be just because they were unloaded.

I'm sure some of the advice y'all have has probably already been given, and you might be tired of the same old threads, but if anyone has the same unique perspective of switching from Mini-14 to AR, I would appreciate it. "The check is in the mail" this week, so I might be buying soon after Thanksgiving. I think Gander Mountain has an M&P 15 Sport with 4 additional magazines on Black Friday, but I shudder at the thought of even trying to get that deal.

[Raoul]

I've got both. The AR is much more of a pleasure to shoot. Nothing wrong with the Mini, but that Garand style action is a lot less fun to deal with.

You should have plenty of choices in a $700 AR.

I have 3 AR's and only one was purchased as a complete weapon. It's a DPMS I bought for less than $700. and it's perfectly serviceable. The other two I built.

You'll like the AR platform.

BTW I may be interested in the mags, depending on what brand they are.

[Jonnin]

quad rail is not necessary.   On top of that, you can buy a kit to install a bottom rail for not much ($10 or so?) on any AR .. I put one on for a VFG/bipod, its fine, I put extra bolts in it for paranoia sturdiness, but probably overkill.

 

I highly recommend a vertical grip, its so easy to hold and control.  A light.. up to you.  You can fit both on a bottom rail if it is not the shortest rail ever made.

 

Forward assist is useful if you get that type of jam, but TBH you wont get that much.  Only time I had the problem was I made some bad reloads that needed help to chamber.  Dust cover is worthless unless you are ... out in the woods fighting a war....

 

most ar lighter than mini.   Mag going in clean is one of the perks ... I HATE the mini mag catch as it caused 3/4 of my problems with the mini.  It could click but not be seated, etc... none of that garbage on an AR.

 

we went from mini to ar because of the mag and because our mini could not hold zero after it broke in.  We use the S&W M&P line ... have 3 of them now (2 223s and a 308) so you can tell I like that gun.  Its excellent quality for the price point.   Zero problems.  I highly recommend the M&P sport deal, you can't beat that gun at a highly reduced price.

[mikegideon]

My mini runs fine. It was also my first choice. Now, I have 7 1/2 AR's. I built all of them. Of the ones I have shot, they all run fine. My first one... the one where I picked the features that would never change... has been changed except the upper receiver :). The mini has been stripped down to a lightweight, compact rifle. Haven't shot it in years, but will again.

 

Get the forward assist. I have used mine in rare circumstances to nudge the bolt into battery. It's there for a reason. And, the only real reason to leave it out is cost. Don't anguish over many features when you get your first one. The gun is totally modular.

[dawgdoc]

This may sound may sound elementary, but if I bought a completed lower and a separate complete upper, should I expect that any two brands should fit together?

Right now, one thing that I am considering is buying a completed lower and separate upper from Palmetto State Armory just because the price seems good, even accounting for the transfer fee for the lower. In that case, I would assume things should fit pretty good. One reason to do it this way is because I haven't seen a mid-length gas system locally; I don't have any personal experience with carbine vs mid-length, but the longer handgaurd seems like it could be useful.

I think I have settled on getting a fixed front sight because that seems durable.

Also Raoul, the mags are 20-round Ruger brand.

[Oh Shoot]

Also Raoul, the mags are 20-round Ruger brand.

 

You should have no trouble selling them for at least 60% of retail price, maybe more.

 

But not here unless you become a Bennie. :)

 

Your Mini experience is mystifying, I have two and they've been as reliable as my ARs, which is to say, rock solid.  I have had a couple of stuck casings, but have on my ARs also. Nothing that a gentle Garand stomp on the Mini or gentle mortar on the ARs hasn't easily cleared though.

 

- OS

Edited November 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[dawgdoc]

Unfortunately, my Mini experience appears to not be unique.  If you google "Mini 14 jamming," or something similar, you'll other similar stories, and they all seem to be newer Minis.  There might have been a bad lot or something.  The original gun was a 582; the replacement was a 583.

 

I found out about the Garand stomp when googling how to get the case unstuck (except I think it was an AK stomp that I found).

 

What are all of your thoughts on a $700 Del-Ton vs building one from Plametto State Armory for around $550 to $600? (just guessing at the final price because I don't know about their shipping and potential Black Friday deals)  The other factor is of course the Del-Ton is available now, vs the PSA which looks like it could take 2-3 weeks at least to get to the final product.  I assume the turn around time at PSA will be longer than normal at this time of year, also.  The other local choice* is a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport. The only difference to my eyes between the S&W and Del-Ton was that the S&W had no forward assist or dust cover, but did have a flip up rear site.  The S&W was $20 cheaper.

 

*by "local choice," I mean the LGS and not Academy, Wal-Mart, etc.  My plan is to support small business, if possible.  Another shop is selling ARs that I think are assembled in shop from Anderson lowers and JSE uppers for $500-600.  Those don't seem much different than going the PSA route.

[Troutburger]

I've worked with del ton and PSA both seem to offer a quality product.

I bet if you watch Black Friday deals you can get into a del ton m4 kit for under $600 and a stripped lower for $60 or less

[whitewolf001]

PSA's barrels(not to be confused with their PTAC line) are made by FNH, which are the same barrels used in M16's, M4's, and it's the same steel used in the M249 SAW. Again, NOT on their PTAC line.

[dawgdoc]

Both local shops have Anderson stripped lowers (one shop was $49 and the other was $69, I believe), and they look exactly alike.  Also, as far as I could tell, the $49 Anderson lower looked like the $99 Spikes lower right next to it (except for the horse instead of a spider). 

 

Assuming there is nothing physically wrong with the Anderson lower, is the only negative of using a different lower from upper is the resale value?  From what I understand, there are only a few actual manufacturers of forged lowers, and the various companies just provide the finish and their stamp, correct?  So in other words, the quality of the finish might be the only difference.

 

If the Anderson lower is good, then it would seem $49 might be a good deal(?).  Even when PSA has blemished lowers on sale (like maybe this Friday), would they be a whole lot cheaper than this with shipping and transfer fee? 

 

Frankly, building a gun seems to have so many choices that my head could explode.  It feels very similar to new car shopping, in which you seemingly have all these potential options, but then you are limited to some specific configurations that are currently available.  As I contemplate buying new vs. building, I find myself leaning one way and then another.

 

On a tangentially related note, has anyone been to a Gander Mountain on Black Friday morning?  I may be able to go to one, should I wish to subject myself to such abuse, but I can only imagine what the gun counter would be like.

[mikegideon]

Resale value will probably be best with a gun that is "manufactured". Unfortunately, not all home made guns are created equal. It isn't all about the parts list either.

[dawgdoc]

I just read the review of the S&W Sport on The Truth About Guns; it seemed that the lack of forward assist and dust cover didn't cause any real problems in Arizona.

[Garufa]

If you want to go the AR route get the $49 Anderson lower locally and closely watch Palmetto State's website next week.  $49 for a lower is online price so that's about right.  PSA will certainly have some rifle kits or upper deals that simply cannot be beat.

[Jct1911]

Agreed. Best bang for the buck is PSA. As above skip the PTAC marked stuff. And yes a complete lower and upper should fit together with 2 pins.

I'd skip del-ton. Most their barrels are 4140, not desired material with rifle barrels in my book.

[runco]

Consider where you live, I would seriously check out GT Distributors.  They always have great deals, and police trade ins.  Consider this is the week of Black Friday, coupled with their low prices, you can probably get a well good brand name AR complete without building in the $600-$700 range.

[gregintenn]

I just built an AR with this upper:

 

                

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/ar-15-upper-clearance/psa-m4-16-cmv-cl-stripped-upper-with-bcg-and-charging-handle-1.html

 

The rest of the parts came from Anderson Arms, except for the carry handle. It came from ebay.

 

I've got just north of $500 in it, and could not be more pleased.

[tnhawk]

Resale value will probably be best with a gun that is "manufactured". Unfortunately, not all home made guns are created equal. It isn't all about the parts list either.

After owning several AR rifles, I'm not convinced I or most frankin builders could do any better than any of the manufacturers I've bought from. 

[mikegideon]

After owning several AR rifles, I'm not convinced I or most frankin builders could do any better than any of the manufacturers I've bought from. 

 

This is a pretty good bunch around here. But, it's easy to wonder if somebody that has built ONE rifle did everything right, and with the right tools. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if the deal was right based on the parts list. But, I have all the tools, and have built a bunch of them. For me, that means that it would have to be a helluva deal to choose it over just buying a bag of parts. In other words, low resale value.

 

When I see an ad that says "custom built" from somebody I don't know, there's an immediate red flag. I get a picture of a guy holding the upper receiver between his knees, and cranking on the barrel nut with a pipe wrench. :) Oh yeah... and a large bottle of Red Loctite sitting next to him.

Edited November 23, 2014 by mikegideon

[raildog]

Both local shops have Anderson stripped lowers (one shop was $49 and the other was $69, I believe), and they look exactly alike. Also, as far as I could tell, the $49 Anderson lower looked like the $99 Spikes lower right next to it (except for the horse instead of a spider).

Assuming there is nothing physically wrong with the Anderson lower, is the only negative of using a different lower from upper is the resale value? From what I understand, there are only a few actual manufacturers of forged lowers, and the various companies just provide the finish and their stamp, correct? So in other words, the quality of the finish might be the only difference.

If the Anderson lower is good, then it would seem $49 might be a good deal(?). Even when PSA has blemished lowers on sale (like maybe this Friday), would they be a whole lot cheaper than this with shipping and transfer fee?

Frankly, building a gun seems to have so many choices that my head could explode. It feels very similar to new car shopping, in which you seemingly have all these potential options, but then you are limited to some specific configurations that are currently available. As I contemplate buying new vs. building, I find myself leaning one way and then another.

On a tangentially related note, has anyone been to a Gander Mountain on Black Friday morning? I may be able to go to one, should I wish to subject myself to such abuse, but I can only imagine what the gun counter would be like.

What LGS. did you find a 49.00 lower best i have found lately is 70 to 80 thanks

[deafdogdief]

There are several good brands. Bushmaster has $50 rebates now. Advice I have always adhered to is to use what military and law enforcement use. If I am not mistaken, slickguns has them on sale for $700 plus the $50 rebate. This is the same model many LEO agencies are using. Sport models usually have lighter barrels and heat up much more quickly and accuracy can suffer until they cool. Forward assist seems to only be needed if the gun is really fouled up or as someone mentioned before about reloading issues and you need to help the round into the chamber (been there, done that). If it wasn't needed they wouldn't have put it on originally. The dust cover thing is handy when I am in the woods and need to track something or get to a stand and am making my way though the brush. Any cover over the action is a plus.

[atlas3025]

I don't think you will be able to buy a complete rifle with comparable quality anywhere near the price you can build a palmetto state.  When looking at Palmetto Uppers and kits, Look for Premium or Cold Hammer Forged (CHF) in the descriptions.  Even the CMV uppers are Chrome Lined Mil-spec, they just aren't made by FN...but are still excellent.  Try to avoid PTAC and Freedom.  I am sure they are fine, but it is worth paying a little more for the CMV, Premium, or CHF.  

 

The CHF are regarded as the highest quality, then Premium, then CMV.  But again, any of them will be very good.  

 

For parts kits, The Classic and Premium are the upper tier.  A few months ago, you could build get a CHF complete M4 Kit and Lower for less than $600 shipped/FFL/xfer.  They haven't run as many CHF deals lately, but still run Premium and CMV all the time.  You should be able to get a fully milspec gun with the bolt assist and dust cover for less than $550.  And don't hesitate to pick up their blemished items.  If they actually are blemished, I'd be surprised if you could find the problem.  They just called them blemished so they can undercut their own normal pricing.  

 

There is nothing wrong with an Anderson Lower, but if you are going to build it, you won't pay any more to build it on a PSA blem lower, and then at least the gun is all matching.  Good luck!

[dawgdoc]

What LGS. did you find a 49.00 lower best i have found lately is 70 to 80 thanks

 

The Shooter's Depot of North Georgia; don't know if the sister store in Chattanooga has the same things.

 

After watching videos on building lowers and reading the guide on AR15.com, I think that I may do that.  Resell value is less important to me than the learning experience at this point.  I like doing things myself, and the lower seems easier than some things that I have done.  Even if I just buy an upper, I think I want the sense of satisfaction that goes along with building.  I'm thinking of getting the Anderson lower locally and everything else from PSA.  Back-up plan would be blemished lower from PSA.

 

I should add that the thought of buying the majority of a gun through the mail makes me smile as I think of the potential liberal tears that will be shed.  

 

Also, I have already made a trade for all my Mini mags for GI mags.

Edited November 23, 2014 by dawgdoc

[whitewolf001]

The Ruger AR556 is an excellent contender too, very cheap with a CHF barrel? Daddy like...

[Clod Stomper]

There are several good brands. Bushmaster has $50 rebates now. Advice I have always adhered to is to use what military and law enforcement use. If I am not mistaken, slickguns has them on sale for $700 plus the $50 rebate. This is the same model many LEO agencies are using. Sport models usually have lighter barrels and heat up much more quickly and accuracy can suffer until they cool. Forward assist seems to only be needed if the gun is really fouled up or as someone mentioned before about reloading issues and you need to help the round into the chamber (been there, done that). If it wasn't needed they wouldn't have put it on originally. The dust cover thing is handy when I am in the woods and need to track something or get to a stand and am making my way though the brush. Any cover over the action is a plus.

 

I would ONLY use the forward assist if I knew absolutely what was wrong.  You may be jamming the bullet into the lands, or a case neck into the throat.  Bad news.  I have used it exactly once.  And I knew that I had failed to push the shoulder back far enough on some cases that I was fire-forming.  

 

If you're stepping out of the truck and heading into the woods and you don't want the bolt carrier slamming home loudly is another reason to use the forward assist.  But again, you know what is going on.

 

And as a matter of fact, they didn't put it on originally.  It was an A1 modification for the jungle of Vietnam because of dirty powder and no cleaning kits.  At least that's the reason I've read.  I wasn't there.

[jcluff]

Troy 16" quad rail AR for $600

if you are in the market, this is probably the best quality AR you will find in its price range. Some people are still boycotting Troy industries for some poor personnel decisions they made but have since corrected. I for one, have no problem with them since they fix the problem and their rifles are top notch.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Edited November 24, 2014 by jcluff