New Twist in the SIG Brace Debate

[Refleks]

So how long is this acting chief going to be acting chief?  Will the real chief come back and clarify again?

[wileecoyote]

I'm not worried about this latest "interpretation".

First they approved the pistol braces even if used to fire an AR pistol from the shoulder, then they confirmed the approval several times, and now they are revoking the approval and reversing their opinion based on their own subjective definition of the word "redesign". Their argument is that by simply using an item in a particular manner, you are redesigning it. So applying the same logic, if you drive your car fast then you have "redesigned" it to be a race car. Or if you fend off an attacker with a can of corn, you have "redesigned" the corn into a deadly weapon. So the corn would need to be registered with the BATF as an NFA item before anyone could carry it as a potential defensive item.

Idiots. We need a new revolution, to go back to living under the full un-infringed constitution. Until then I'm not afraid of their liberal and politically motivated "interpretations". Edited January 20, 2015 by wileecoyote

[Steelharp]

Talked with one of our distributors today. They do not deal in any NFA items. They have them, there has been NO change in the brace status.

 

Carry on.

[Erik88]

I went ahead and purchased my 10.5" PSA upper which will finish out my pistol build. What a bizarre chain of events this has been. I'm not sure what to believe at this point. 

[mikegideon]

I went ahead and purchased my 10.5" PSA upper which will finish out my pistol build. What a bizarre chain of events this has been. I'm not sure what to believe at this point. 

 

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, even the dumbest of government employees may call it a duck. I thought it was much more bizarre when the ATF accepted those things with no conditions. Gonna be hard to enforce. And... what the worst that can happen?

 

[MadMarx]

Just to show the ludicrousness of this, it would be interesting to make an AR15 pistol with the Sig Brace and a 14.5 inch barrel with a screw on flash suppressor, and a M4 clone with a 14.5 inch barrel with a pinned and welded flash suppressor with a regular adjustable stock all the way forward. Place them on a table and make a video point out how shooting one from the shoulder is now an NFA gun and the other is not. How it if you hold the pistol a half an inch from your shoulder and shoot it you are fine, but if you move it that last half inch you are now a felon.

[Oh Shoot]

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, even the dumbest of government employees may call it a duck. I thought it was much more bizarre when the ATF accepted those things with no conditions. Gonna be hard to enforce. And... what the worst that can happen?

 

 

Wow, great! - where did E's original face shot come from?

 

Anyway, it remains to be seen whether ATF will even attempt to actually enforce this opinion at all. They only have to prosecute one person to make the point, but then they open it up to courts, all the way to the top. I still say they won't risk it.

 

Reversing the original opinion that these type braces are indeed stocks is the clear cut way to prevent them from being used for shoulder fire.

 

- OS

[Erik88]

Damn you Mike. I knew that picture would resurface someday. I'll never be able to top it either.

[mikegideon]

Damn you Mike. I knew that picture would resurface someday. I'll never be able to top it either.

 

I figured it was only good for one time. My lucky day, I guess :)

[Oh Shoot]

A bit surprising to me, SIG has indicated they may get more involved with the ruling:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-statement-sig-sauer-atf-pistol-brace-ruling/

 

There has been more talk here and there about the concept of a "declaratory judgment" as being a viable way to go on the matter, rather than either waiting for an actual criminal case, or from a manufacturer filing suit claiming any kind of  financial damages. Some scuttlebutt around that Alex himself DBA SB Tactical might be the logical one to pursue it, and that might be how SIG could throw in its support without attacking it directly under its own name. We'll see.

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

A bit surprising to me, SIG has indicated they may get more involved with the ruling:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-statement-sig-sauer-atf-pistol-brace-ruling/

 

There has been more talk here and there about the concept of a "declaratory judgment" as being a viable way to go on the matter, rather than either waiting for an actual criminal case, or from a manufacturer filing suit claiming any kind of  financial damages. Some scuttlebutt around that Alex himself DBA SB Tactical might be the logical one to pursue it, and that might be how SIG could throw in its support without attacking it directly under its own name. We'll see.

 

- OS

 

I sure hope they can prevail. If I was in their shoes right now, I would release something like this, no matter what chance I had of winning. Fact is, the reason most folks bought these things was to use as a stock. That could be bad for Sig.

[Oh Shoot]

I sure hope they can prevail. If I was in their shoes right now, I would release something like this, no matter what chance I had of winning. Fact is, the reason most folks bought these things was to use as a stock. That could be bad for Sig.

 

Even though I have two shootin irons with braces, I'm mostly hoping the ATF gets shot down on this one just to make the ongoing point about the absurdity of NFA in this day and age. As if criminals probably paid it much heed back in the 30's either, of course.

 

In the meantime in the real world, it remains just another compilation of toothless words on paper from a single mid level bureaucrat (in an acting position no less) -- unless and until ATF attempts to enforce it.

 

- OS

Edited January 22, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[whitewolf001]

New ruling; equipping a pistol with an optic makes it FAR too effective, thus all pistols can no longer use optics AND using the iron sights in conjunction with pulling the trigger for more than two consecutive shots in less than 2 seconds redesigns it as a full auto...

Edited January 23, 2015 by whitewolf001

[Oh Shoot]

While I seldom use TTAG as an example of accurate and unbiased journalism since the guy has a way of "selective reporting", this little second hand snippet from SHOT show is nonetheless interesting:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/atf-change-minds-brace-people-kept-sending-letters/

 

- OS

[Omega]

Well hell, if thats all it takes. I suggest every gun owner write a letter to TPTB of the legality of the GCA so they can change their mind.

[Refleks]

Can you still shoulder a buffer tube?

[JohnC]

Can you still shoulder a buffer tube?

 

Yes. No rule change on that... so far. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by JohnC

[Fourtyfive]

So no letters were sent on the Slide Fire I take it .... :screwy:

Edited January 25, 2015 by Fourtyfive

[whitewolf001]

Yes. No rule change on that... so far. 

Then if one had a brace on it and it was choked up all the way forward, technically it could argued that you were facilitating use of the tube and not the brace. But then, I don't wanna be the test case... :p

[Oh Shoot]

Then if one had a brace on it and it was choked up all the way forward, technically it could argued that you were facilitating use of the tube and not the brace. But then, I don't wanna be the test case... :P

 

Mad Max says that shouldering a brace changes the firearm to an SBR. All the "intent" stuff is non sequitur now according to him. He is not a lawyer btw.

 

- OS

[No_0ne]

I imagine lots of vids and still pix are disappearing from all over the web, eh?

 

Of course, just how is this new "mandate" supposed to be disseminated to all the folks who have purchased them? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", but of course the law has not changed.

 

This is not even an official "ruling", and indeed the last one of those on ATF rulings page is from July 2013, but of course there have been any number of newer ones, including one already in 2015 (regarding 80% lowers).

 

What responsibility do the makers and retailers of the various braces have to communicate this to new buyers. Do they have any responsibility to try and communicate this to previous buyers?

 

Etc.

 

Maybe some activist will show up outside Max's office building in Martinsburg and shoulder his braced pistol for a while to see if he gets arrested to get this thing rolling. ;)

 

- OS

 

Where's ole Leonard when you need him ...

[No_0ne]

I found another use...

 

Helps mitigate the lethality of your pocket pistol ...