.40 vs .45

[tn hp]

Very sound advise so far regarding choice of caliber. Although I am a 1911, .45 acp fan and carrier, my advise to any one who is buying their first primary carry gun had been to buy a .40 Glock.

I have no experience with the Springfield polymer pistols but, everthing that I have read has been positive. Regarding the size, for daily carry, buy the sub compact model unless you can conceal the mid size model.

If your going to use this as a shooter, plinker, target practice piece, buy the mid size model. The Glock model 23 or it counterpart in the Springfield line, is about as good as it gets for the best all around first primary carry piece and home defense weapon.

Brass, extra mags, holsters, bullets, you name it and its available in .40 caliber. If you want a full size model, save your pennies and buy a police trade in model in a year or two. You will save money and be able to use the full size mags in the smaller model. Keeping your primary hand guns in the same caliber is, in my opinion, another good idea whether you reload or not.

Let us know what you decide!

[Guest RISC777]

You probably explored the below links, but if not . . .

Caliber wiki

40 S&W wiki

10mm wiki

45 ACP wiki

Not bad reading.

[Guest HexHead]

I had one pistol in .40 S&W and didn't like the cartridge. The felt recoil has a real snap to it. I much prefer the shove of .45 acp. I also prefer the heavier bullet. My carry round is 230gr Hornady +P TAP. I doubt you're going to get more overall performance than that.

[dralarms]

My first experiance with a 40 was a 1st gen Glock 22, hated it, put 2 mags through it and sold it the next day.

Now that being said, the 40 has become my fav. round. I carry a M&P 40C, I have a glock 22 3rd gen in my bug out bag along with keltec's sub 2000 in 40 (uses the glock mags). The 3rd gen glock shoot much better than the 1st gen did. I have a bunch of 45's and a bunch of 40's. But the 40 is a great round.

Oh and BTW there was an article (cant' find it or I'd post it) where this guy got shot 7 or 8 times with a 45 and lived. It's not caliber but shot placement that gets the job done, 2 to COM and 1 follow up to the head will assure that the threat is stopped.

[DaveTN]

Which is the better cartridge - .40 or .45 - and why?

It depends on your priorities. I am not interested in velocity, wound tracks, bleed out, depth in a block of ballistic gelatin, or even death.

My only interest in a carry round is Stop The Threat. I want to make my attacker unable or unwilling to fire his weapon at me. The .45ACP is absolutely capable of doing that, and has been the undisputed king of defensive rounds for 100 years.

I have been in shootings and experienced the adrenalin rush. So unlike the “Shot Placement†guys I know that I can’t make a head or a heart shot every time, but I’m pretty good at center body mass.

The .40S&W may not be as good at that as the .45, but it is superior to the 9mm when you need a smaller firearm or a higher round count.10mm may be okay but it is not an option for me because I don’t see it as a mainstream round. It and the .45GAP I think of as “Cult†rounds.

.40S&W. is something that I will use when it’s not convenient to carry a .45ACP. Also, 15 rounds of .40 S&W is a hell of a lot of firepower.

There is room for another semi-auto round.

Behind the .45ACP in stopping the threat is the .357MAG. The .357SIG was designed to fill that spot for the auto loaders, but it fell short in performance and had feeding problems because it is a necked cartridge.

[Guest tarheel78]

My former employer spent literally thousand$ of dollars, hundreds of instructor man-hours, and several years "studying" the issue of agency conversion to the .40 S&W cartridge during the middle 1990s. This was coming out of the tradition of standard-issue duty Sig 9mm to new personnel. The Sig was well-respected and carried by our SWAT teams and most field agents. There were a lot of complaints about the 9 lacking knock-down power however. One incident involved a search warrant issue where an agent was attacked by a pit bull during building entry. He shot it several times with his duty 9mm, but it did not go down.

Anyway, in the late 90s, the decision was made to go to standard-issue Glock 40s, and still is the case. Interstingly, during quarterly qualifying shoots, average scores went up from the mid-90s to the high-90s on our PQC. The .40 is carried in confidence by all who chose to turn in their Sig 9s for the G 40's. The knockdown power advantage is significant, and they had the gel block tests and other technomania to make the case.

As for the personally-owned .45, some of us just plain like the feel, tradition and the good model lines offered out there such as the XD, etc (besdies that, we were forbidden from carrying .45s on duty, don't ask why, we were never told). You can't go wrong with either choice.

[dralarms]

My former employer spent literally thousand$ of dollars, hundreds of instructor man-hours, and several years "studying" the issue of agency conversion to the .40 S&W cartridge during the middle 1990s. This was coming out of the tradition of standard-issue duty Sig 9mm to new personnel. The Sig was well-respected and carried by our SWAT teams and most field agents. There were a lot of complaints about the 9 lacking knock-down power however. One incident involved a search warrant issue where an agent was attacked by a pit bull during building entry. He shot it several times with his duty 9mm, but it did not go down.

Anyway, in the late 90s, the decision was made to go to standard-issue Glock 40s, and still is the case. Interstingly, during quarterly qualifying shoots, average scores went up from the mid-90s to the high-90s on our PQC. The .40 is carried in confidence by all who chose to turn in their Sig 9s for the G 40's. The knockdown power advantage is significant, and they had the gel block tests and other technomania to make the case.

As for the personally-owned .45, some of us just plain like the feel, tradition and the good model lines offered out there such as the XD, etc (besdies that, we were forbidden from carrying .45s on duty, don't ask why, we were never told). You can't go wrong with either choice.

Hey Tarheel78, Where in NC do you hail from?

[Luckyforward]

Yeah Tarheel . . . where did you live in NC? Though a TN native, I lived 25 years in NC; I lived in Wake Forest, Chapel Hill, Siler City, Eden, New Bern, and Raleigh

[dralarms]

Yeah Tarheel . . . where did you live in NC? Though a TN native, I lived 25 years in NC; I lived in Wake Forest, Chapel Hill, Siler City, Eden, New Bern, and Raleigh

Lucky, that's funny. I was born in New Bern, I'll bet I haven't spent more than 6 years in NC total. And how did you find Eden?

[Guest pjblurton]

Here's the one thing I'll say to anyone who says this caliber is crap or this caliber will not thwart an attacker.

Why don't you just stand in front of this pistol while I pull the trigger...

I don't care if it's a .22, .380, 9mm, 40S&W, .45ACP or .50 Cal. I guarantee you the answer will be NO!

Shoot what you like and you have confidence in.

Myself?

I carry a .40.

[Guest TheBulldog]

Very sound advise so far regarding choice of caliber. Although I am a 1911, .45 acp fan and carrier, my advise to any one who is buying their first primary carry gun had been to buy a .40 Glock.

I have no experience with the Springfield polymer pistols but, everthing that I have read has been positive. Regarding the size, for daily carry, buy the sub compact model unless you can conceal the mid size model.

If your going to use this as a shooter, plinker, target practice piece, buy the mid size model. The Glock model 23 or it counterpart in the Springfield line, is about as good as it gets for the best all around first primary carry piece and home defense weapon.

Brass, extra mags, holsters, bullets, you name it and its available in .40 caliber. If you want a full size model, save your pennies and buy a police trade in model in a year or two. You will save money and be able to use the full size mags in the smaller model. Keeping your primary hand guns in the same caliber is, in my opinion, another good idea whether you reload or not.

Let us know what you decide!

Oh lookie, a Glockie ad!

LISTEN here, never mind that glock junk unless you want a POS weapon.

Get a SIG P229 in 40 and you WILL be happy.

It's not a HUGE gun, it has a hearty caliber (You can also go 357SIG) and it is just a better weapon than the Glock or the XD IMHO.

Remember, You Get what you PAY for!

Let's try to stay with facts and keep argumentative opinions like the "Glock junk" and "POS weapon" comments to yourself. Thanks, Shima Handguns Moderator

Edited October 26, 2008 by TheBulldog
argumentative opinion warning

[Guest TheBulldog]

Here's the one thing I'll say to anyone who says this caliber is crap or this caliber will not thwart an attacker.

Why don't you just stand in front of this pistol while I pull the trigger...

I don't care if it's a .22, .380, 9mm, 40S&W, .45ACP or .50 Cal. I guarantee you the answer will be NO!

Shoot what you like and you have confidence in.

Myself?

I carry a .40.

Darn Skippie about that!

I always have a 25 auto in my pocket just in case I have to BUG out!

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Oh lookie, a Glockie ad!

LISTEN here, never mind that glock junk unless you want a POS weapon.

Get a SIG P229 in 40 and you WILL be happy.

It's not a HUGE gun, it has a hearty caliber (You can also go 357SIG) and it is just a better weapon than the Glock or the XD IMHO.

Remember, You Get what you PAY for!

Wow. Great post.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Oh lookie, a Glockie ad!

LISTEN here, never mind that glock junk unless you want a POS weapon.

You may not like Glocks...that's cool, they're not for everyone.

But to say that they're "a POS weapon" is kinda silly.

[Guest Mugster]

Lol, the debate rages. They came up with the .45acp round about 1909-1910. So far, no one has built a better mousetrap for close in shooting less than 50 meters. The .40 is probably a better pick than a 9 though.

The only reason to not pick .45 is firepower and penetration. 20 rounds or whatever of 9mm or .40 is lighter and the recoil is less and ball in either caliber will really penetrate...thats compared to full power .45acp rounds.

To say that all calibers have equal killing power is a bit naive. I wouldn't hunt deer with a .25 or a .22. I might kill it, sure. My chance of a nice clean kill goes up exponentially with a .44/.45. I wouldn't use a .35 either, for that matter. I don't think anyone can seriously dispute this.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Mugster

[Guest Mugster]

You may not like Glocks...that's cool, they're not for everyone.

But to say that they're "a POS weapon" is kinda silly.

Yeah, that is kinda silly. Glocks have some design flaws, imo, mostly related to barrel length, accuracy, and the inability to handle reloads. But it does have its own advantages. Firepower, weight, and different ergo's if the 1911 package just won't do it for you.

[Mike]

Oh lookie, a Glockie ad!

LISTEN here, never mind that glock junk unless you want a POS weapon.

Get a SIG P229 in 40 and you WILL be happy.

It's not a HUGE gun, it has a hearty caliber (You can also go 357SIG) and it is just a better weapon than the Glock or the XD IMHO.

Remember, You Get what you PAY for!

Because there's a HUGE failure rate with Glocks and all....

Here's the one thing I'll say to anyone who says this caliber is crap or this caliber will not thwart an attacker.

Why don't you just stand in front of this pistol while I pull the trigger...

I don't care if it's a .22, .380, 9mm, 40S&W, .45ACP or .50 Cal. I guarantee you the answer will be NO!

Truth. You speak it.

OP. Get what you are comfortable carrying. Pick up, handle, and shoot as may different makes and models as you can before you make your decision.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

To say that all calibers have equal killing power is a bit naive. I wouldn't hunt deer with a .25 or a .22.

I respectfully disagree.

Let not change the context here ...service pistol sized defense calibers and their applications.

IMO, .45acp built it's lore back when combatants were limited to FMJ. With the advancement of bullet design, that margin is now insignificant.

Does the .40/.45 have the theoretical edge to the 9mm, yes.

On the street? Based on my 14 years of LEO experience and being onscene to many shootings, I'd have to say, not really.

Factor in your enemies mindset and onboard chemicals and shot placement is more important than the service pistol caliber used.

Yes DaveTN, I said shot placement. A coworker dropped an AK armed murderer with a single 9mm FMJ round fired at a measured 72 yards under stress (he fired 4 times).

Shot placement...it can work.

With the above in mind, I choose 9mm because it will PROBABLY do what it needs to do, if I do my part, with less recoil and faster follow-up shots.

ALL handguns have crappy "stopping power" regardless of caliber. At the end of the day, carry what you're comfortable with.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[DaveTN]

Here's the one thing I'll say to anyone who says this caliber is crap or this caliber will not thwart an attacker.

Why don't you just stand in front of this pistol while I pull the trigger...

I don't care if it's a .22, .380, 9mm, 40S&W, .45ACP or .50 Cal. I guarantee you the answer will be NO!

Shoot what you like and you have confidence in.

Myself?

I carry a .40.

Darn Skippie about that!

I always have a 25 auto in my pocket just in case I have to BUG out!

That’s what I love about the caliber war threads; you can rest assured they will turn into nonsense fairly quickly.

I wouldn’t stand there and let you shoot me with a spitball out of a straw. Does that make it a good carry weapon?

[DaveTN]

Yes DaveTN, I said shot placement.

Do you know that you can do it?

A coworker dropped an AK armed murderer with a single 9mm FMJ round fired at a measured 72 yards under stress (he fired 4 times).

Shot placement...it can work.

And I remember a situation where an Illinois State Trooper lost control of his weapon in a roadside fight with a perp. He managed to hit his mag release button before the perp knocked him out. Another responding trooper saw the perp standing over him trying to get the weapon to fire. He fired out the window of his moving vehicle on the other side of the highway as he was braking to cross the median. The perp dropped dead. Should we use that as an example of shot placement? Because the Trooper that made that shot said it wasn’t… it was sheer luck or Gods hand; whichever you want to believe.

Edited October 26, 2008 by DaveTN

[Guest Mugster]

I respectfully disagree.

Let not change the context here ...service pistol defense calibers and their applications.

IMO, .45acp built it lore back when combatants were limited to FMJ. With the advancement of bullet design, that margin is now insignificant.

Does the .40/.45 have the theoretical edge to the 9mm, yes.

On the street? Based on my 14 years of LEO experience and being onscene to many shootings, I'd have to say, not really.

Factor in your enemies mindset and onboard chemicals and shot placement is more important than the service pistol caliber used.

Yes DaveTN, I said shot placement.

With the above in mind, I choose 9mm because it will PROBABY do what it needs to do, if I do my part, with less recoil.

ALL handguns have crappy "stoppingpower" regardless of caliber.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Although, if you stick to service loadings, I do agree with you a bit. It really doesn't matter what caliber, because they all suck.

I do agree that shot placement is critical regardless of caliber.

On the .22/.25 comment, I was directly responding to a comment, so if i get dinged for off topic, you got to ding the other guy too.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Mugster

[Guest Todd@CIS]

.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Although, if you stick to service loadings, I do agree with you a bit.

Yes, the topic of discussion before it got silly at post #35.

On the .22/.25 comment, I was directly responding to a comment, so if i get dinged for off topic, you got to ding the other guy too.

LOL...no, I was referring to your deer hunting comment.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Todd@CIS]

DaveTN speaking of shot placement in post #46...

Do you know that you can do it?

Tell me your alternative...loud noise?

Regardless whether someone can or can't, it's what's NEEDED.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Todd@CIS