.40 vs .45

[Guest Mugster]

LOL...no, I was referring to your deer hunting comment.

How is shooting a deer or a hog different from shooting a human? Weight about the same, have bones and muscle.

I mean, we're talking about killing here, right? Killing a human is PC talk for "stopping the threat"? A clean kill is a clean kill.

[Guest bkelm18]

How is shooting a deer or a hog different from shooting a human? Weight about the same, have bones and muscle.

I mean, we're talking about killing here, right? Killing a human is PC talk for "stopping the threat"? A clean kill is a clean kill.

Human psychology is different than hog psychology. A hog doesn't know what it means to be shot. A human does. Even if your shot doesn't incapacitate a human, they might break off the attack (run, fall the to ground, etc.) knowing that they have been shot and are now at a considerable disadvantage. You aren't shooting to kill, you are shooting to stop the threat.

[TGO David]

Oh lookie, a Glockie ad!

LISTEN here, never mind that glock junk unless you want a POS weapon.

I'm getting tired of the silly, baseless brand bashing from this guy ... so I am giving him a temporary 3-day vacation from the site during which time he should try to think of some ways to participate in gun recommendation threads without sounding like a broken record.

I tried to find some of his posts where he wasn't spouting off a lot of anti-Glock nonsense and couldn't come up with very many.

[Smith]

Lol, the debate rages. They came up with the .45acp round about 1909-1910. So far, no one has built a better mousetrap for close in shooting less than 50 meters. The .40 is probably a better pick than a 9 though.

you had to go and do it. Taken from Chuck Hawks site.

However, between the two mentioned, .40.

The 9x19 is more pleasant to shoot than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP (its major competitors among auto pistol cartridges). It has noticeably less muzzle blast and recoil than the other two cartridges, and a less blinding muzzle flash in the dark (a frequently overlooked point).

Because it is not as fat as the popular .40 and .45 caliber cartridges, a double stack pistol for 9x19 can hold between 50% and 100% more cartridges. The slight energy advantage held by the larger caliber per shot (345 ft. lbs. for the 124 grain 9mm slug compared to 370 ft. lbs. for the 230 grain .45 slug) does not come close to making up the difference. The shooter with a 15 shot 9x19 pistol in his hand controls 5175 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy, which he can deliver to any number of targets between 1 and 15. The shooter with a 7 shot .45 ACP pistol can deliver only 2590 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy to between 1 and 7 targets. This is one very good reason why the U.S. Army adopted the 9x19 and the Beretta M-9 pistol in 1985.

All during the post-WW II years from 1945 to the 1990's there were a tremendous number of articles and books written by supposed experts alleging the superiority of the .45 ACP over the 9x19. These assertions were usually based on theoretical models of stopping power (like the Cooper "short form") that suggested a large .40 or larger caliber bullet had some intangible advantage in stopping power irrespective of the actual energy delivered. These theoretical models seriously over estimated the stopping power of the .45 ACP and seriously underestimated the stopping power of the 9x19. Assertions that .45 ball (FMJ) ammunition was 90% effective in achieving one shot stops were common. The truth revealed by the 15 year Marshall-Sanow study of thousands of actual shootings is that standard 230 grain .45 ball ammunition is about 62.89% effective, and 9x19 115 grain ball ammunition is 62.26% effective in achieving a one shot stop.

More important to civilian and police shooters is the effectiveness of the best bullets in the calibers, which for most purposes are expanding JHP bullets. The top load for the 9x19 is the Cor-Bon +P 115grain JHP, which is 91% effective in achieving a one shot stop. (For comparison, the top load for the .45 ACP is the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok, which is 92% effective.) The 115 grain +P loads from Federal, Remington, and Winchester are all close, averaging about 89% one shot stops

[DaveTN]

Tell me your alternative...loud noise?

Regardless whether someone can or can't, it's what's NEEDED.

Knowledge is needed, to use a round that is capable of stopping the threat with a body shot, understanding physics and ballistics. Do you really think you can make a head shot when facing an armed perp? If you can why would you need a second shot? A head shot from almost any caliber will drop the person dead instantly.

Can a perp return fire on you while being hit with high velocity 9mm’s? Yes. The physics allow it. Can he do that while being hit by, 45’s or .357MAG? Probably not; the physics don’t allow it.

Surface area, Mass, Velocity, Energy.

We see .380’s and Glaser Safety Slugs being recommended on forums for carry rounds.

What do you tell your students when they tell you how their dad told them that a Glaser or a .380 is a great carry round?

Many of these people just learned which end of the barrel the bullet comes out and they are paying you for guidance. I’m pretty sure you don’t tell them a .380 in the pocket is better than a .45 at home.

Edited October 26, 2008 by DaveTN

[Guest Mugster]

you had to go and do it. Taken from Chuck Hawks site.

However, between the two mentioned, .40.

I'm not sure who chuck hawks is, nor have i been to his website ( i don't think). But I get nervous about percentages in terms of effective stopping power. I have read alot of stuff written by marshal. While I respect his writing...I tend to like other writers better. I'll also say, i'm a little iffy on the concept of stopping power.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Mugster

[DWARREN123]

It comes down to what you like best. Either caliber will work but it's about which will work best for you. Find a platform that you like and go with the caliber you want.

I like the 40 S&W myself but it is just a personal thing. I like mine in an Springfield XDm!

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Can a perp return fire on you while being hit with high velocity 9mm’s? Yes. The physics allow it. Can he do that while being hit by, 45’s or .357MAG? Probably not; the physics don’t allow it.

Wow, do you really believe this? If so, I can't wait to "hear" you expain it.

I'm going to stop here as I think the usefulness of this thread has passed.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest bkelm18]

Can a perp return fire on you while being hit with high velocity 9mm’s? Yes. The physics allow it. Can he do that while being hit by, 45’s or .357MAG? Probably not; the physics don’t allow it.

Surface area, Mass, Velocity, Energy.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Could you please explain how the laws of physics prevent a person from firing a weapon after being hit by a .45 or .357? This entire thread is really starting to baffle me...

[Guest Mugster]

Human psychology is different than hog psychology. A hog doesn't know what it means to be shot. A human does. Even if your shot doesn't incapacitate a human, they might break off the attack (run, fall the to ground, etc.) knowing that they have been shot and are now at a considerable disadvantage. You aren't shooting to kill, you are shooting to stop the threat.

I guess if your forced into shooting somebody and they run off, that would be ideal. I don't think you can count on that though. So, I think whatever you carry should be designed to stop as best as possible (which in my mind means kill). Because if they can run off, they can keep chopping you up with a machete or whatever.

I guess in my simple mind, the .44/.45 does the best job of it across multiple mammal types. Thats all i'm saying.

I'm out of this thread. We've beat the horse enough. I got to go change my oil before the sun drops.

[TGO David]

Knowledge is needed, to use a round that is capable of stopping the threat with a body shot, understanding physics and ballistics. Do you really think you can make a head shot when facing an armed perp? If you can why would you need a second shot? A head shot from almost any caliber will drop the person dead instantly.

Can a perp return fire on you while being hit with high velocity 9mm’s? Yes. The physics allow it. Can he do that while being hit by, 45’s or .357MAG? Probably not; the physics don’t allow it.

Surface area, Mass, Velocity, Energy.

We see .380’s and Glaser Safety Slugs being recommended on forums for carry rounds.

What do you tell your students when they tell you how their dad told them that a Glaser or a .380 is a great carry round?

Many of these people just learned which end of the barrel the bullet comes out and they are paying you for guidance. I’m pretty sure you don’t tell them a .380 in the pocket is better than a .45 at home.

Posts like this remind me of why it is almost guaranteed that some people will be mislead by things said here and why forums don't make good sources of solid information.

Discussion, yes. Information, no.

The only way to change that would result in outcries of "censorship". Regardless, the items that I highlighted in red are patently false and should not be considered as being gospel truths. There is far too much evidence to the contrary on both counts.

[Guest bkelm18]

Posts like this remind me of why it is almost guaranteed that some people will be mislead by things said here and why forums don't make good sources of solid information.

Discussion, yes. Information, no.

The only way to change that would result in outcries of "censorship". Regardless, the items that I highlighted in red are patently false and should not be considered as being gospel truths. There is far too much evidence to the contrary on both counts.

Very true. I've seen stories of folks hit in the head by a .45 and keep on truckin.

[DaveTN]

Wow, do you really believe this? If so, I can't wait to "hear" you expain it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Could you please explain how the laws of physics prevent a person from firing a weapon after being hit by a .45 or .357? This entire thread is really starting to baffle me...

No, I was just kidding. Physics has nothing to do with it. 9mm is the best all around round there is. It also is cheap to shoot which makes it even a better round.

[DaveTN]

Posts like this remind me of why it is almost guaranteed that some people will be mislead by things said here and why forums don't make good sources of solid information.

Discussion, yes. Information, no.

The only way to change that would result in outcries of "censorship". Regardless, the items that I highlighted in red are patently false and should not be considered as being gospel truths. There is far too much evidence to the contrary on both counts.

I can certainly see you making an argument or questioning the caliber statement.

But the head shot statement? Come on… a head shot with almost any caliber will turn you off like a switch.

Sure if it glanced off, you might live. But the “Shot Placement†guys are going to drill that baby right through the front of your head.

Very true. I've seen stories of folks hit in the head by a .45 and keep on truckin.

And I’ve heard stories of people being hit by a train and living. What’s your point?

[Oh Shoot]

Here's the actual truth of the matter:

(Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo on DefensiveCarry.com)

I once saw a man shot at point blank range 37 times in the head and 14 times in the chest with a 9mm and he was still able to finish the Ironman competition (he only placed 4th, though) and then wrestle a grizzly bear into submission.

On the other hand, I once saw a man shot from 75 yards with a .45ACP. The round grazed his left pinky which blew his right arm and leg completely off his body and caused his brain to explode. Then his goldfish died.

- OS

[Guest bkelm18]

And I’ve heard stories of people being hit by a train and living. What’s your point?

You actually just supported my statement....

In either event, I can see you've gotten most of your caliber info from the Interwebz and an actual fact based discussion is not likely to happen, so I'm just going to stop.

[ninja128]

for me personally I am more accurate with the 40...am I the only one? or was it just the gun? between the 10 and 40 I mean

[Mike]

Here's the actual truth of the matter:

(Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo on DefensiveCarry.com)

I once saw a man shot at point blank range 37 times in the head and 14 times in the chest with a 9mm and he was still able to finish the Ironman competition (he only placed 4th, though) and then wrestle a grizzly bear into submission.

On the other hand, I once saw a man shot from 75 yards with a .45ACP. The round grazed his left pinky which blew his right arm and leg completely off his body and caused his brain to explode. Then his goldfish died.

- OS

[Luckyforward]

Here's the actual truth of the matter:

(Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo on DefensiveCarry.com)

I once saw a man shot at point blank range 37 times in the head and 14 times in the chest with a 9mm and he was still able to finish the Ironman competition (he only placed 4th, though) and then wrestle a grizzly bear into submission.

On the other hand, I once saw a man shot from 75 yards with a .45ACP. The round grazed his left pinky which blew his right arm and leg completely off his body and caused his brain to explode. Then his goldfish died.

- OS

HIS GOLDFISH DIED! I am incensed! I am calling the ASPCA!

[Guest truthsayer]

Well, I'm glad to see that things remained civil during my Sunday nap.

[Smith]

Well, I'm glad to see that things remained civil during my Sunday nap.

It's all in good fun. Most folks take it in stride.

[Luckyforward]

OK . . . so just what is a "POS" weapon?

Educate me, please.

[Luckyforward]

BTW . . . did some gun shop looking, and as I am the one who started this thread, I thought I'd update you on my progress.

I REALLY liked the XD 45 compact; shot it and liked it.

But . . . I shot the XD service in .40 and liked it; it is larger and will be a bit more difficult to conceal.

If I win the lottery, I'll buy both.

Until I win, I'm not altogether sure.

[Oh Shoot]

BTW . . . did some gun shop looking, and as I am the one who started this thread, I thought I'd update you on my progress.

I REALLY liked the XD 45 compact; shot it and liked it.

But . . . I shot the XD service in .40 and liked it; it is larger and will be a bit more difficult to conceal.

If I win the lottery, I'll buy both.

Until I win, I'm not altogether sure.

Sounds like XD .40 sub compact might be the XD for you, then.

Oh, and "POS": Piece of S__t

- OS

[Luckyforward]

Sounds like XD .40 sub compact might be the XD for you, then.

Oh, and "POS": Piece of S__t

- OS

I liked the sub, but it felt so small in my hand, and I do not have giant hands.

Thanks for the education on the "POS" issue . . . I'm stupid, but not dumb!