Civil Immunity ?

[chances R]

I may not be reading this right, but it looks to me that TCA 39-11-622 gives immunity for civil suit, exceptions as noted, if one exercises deadly force in a legitimate self-defense situation. Right? ---- Wrong? Edited November 19, 2014 by chances R

[rugerla1]

If someone tries to kill you, kill them back. I won't be worried about verbal should the situation arise. If I have to think about it, it's probably not the time to pull the trigger.

Edit: The first statement -unless you started the mess (sorry, didn't like the way that sounded off the cuff) Edited November 19, 2014 by rugerla1

[RED333]

Right, if you are cleared of all charges, if any come up.

It is the civil case that just might get ya.

[Oh Shoot]

I may not be reading this right, but it looks to me that TCA 39-11-622 gives immunity for civil suit, exceptions as noted, if one exercises deadly force in a legitimate self-defense situation. Right? ---- Wrong?

 

Well, yeah, except you'd have to endure the suit and get the ruling of justification before you're immune.

 

And then, "the court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action brought against the person based upon the person's use of force, if the court finds that the defendant was justified in using such force..."

 

I think a lot of people think that as long as you weren't charged criminally, that means your shoot was ruled justifiable, and that's really not the case at all -- it takes a court to do that. As I understand it, either criminal court if charged, or the civil one if not charged.

 

- OS

Edited November 19, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

And the criteria for evidence to find you guilty is a lot lower in a civil court. It might be harder to convict you in criminal court but you might also loose your freedom. In civil court you are not risking your freedom but it is also easier for you to loose everything.

 

And one more thing a lot of people do not realize is anyone can file a lawsuit for anything and it must be heard by a judge. Someone can bring a civil suit against someone else for any reason and no matter how ludicrous the lawsuit is the lawsuit must be heard before it can be thrown out. And call me crazy but I would NEVER find myself in front of a judge without an attorney by my side, no matter how crazy the lawsuit might sound. Fortunately there are also remedies for those who have been hit with a frivolous lawsuit.

[Omega]

Well, yeah, except you'd have to endure the suit and get the ruling of justification before you're immune.

 

And then, "the court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action brought against the person based upon the person's use of force, if the court finds that the defendant was justified in using such force..."

 

I think a lot of people think that as long as you weren't charged criminally, that means your shoot was ruled justifiable, and that's really not the case at all -- it takes a court to do that. As I understand it, either criminal court if charged, or the civil one if not charged.

 

- OS

That is why the saying goes "I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is so relevant.  Sometimes even if you are justified, any police officer can arrest you and the DA can charge you and make you prove your innocence.  But even with all that, its better than loosing the fight.

 

And the criteria for evidence to find you guilty is a lot lower in a civil court. It might be harder to convict you in criminal court but you might also loose your freedom. In civil court you are not risking your freedom but it is also easier for you to loose everything.

 

And one more thing a lot of people do not realize is anyone can file a lawsuit for anything and it must be heard by a judge. Someone can bring a civil suit against someone else for any reason and no matter how ludicrous the lawsuit is the lawsuit must be heard before it can be thrown out. And call me crazy but I would NEVER find myself in front of a judge without an attorney by my side, no matter how crazy the lawsuit might sound. Fortunately there are also remedies for those who have been hit with a frivolous lawsuit.

You know, I think the law needs to be amended in some way to make frivolous lawsuits a bit more painful for those that seem to always be filing them.  A defendant can go broke defending against a BS lawsuit, the filer should be made to pay court costs and any fees associated with a successful defense of such a suit.  And that would include some of these suits brought on by criminals and their families against their victims when the criminal gets hurt during the criminal act. 

[E4 No More]

 Several actual lawyers on this forum have opined that the only way they'd take a case against someone in these circumstances is if the plaintiff was ok with paying all fees up front and ok with losing them.

[Omega]

 Several actual lawyers on this forum have opined that the only way they'd take a case against someone in these circumstances is if the plaintiff was ok with paying all fees up front and ok with losing them.

Well yea, no matter what the lawyers and the court wins.  But what about the defendant, it takes quite a bit of money to defend yourself against BS charges and many times you're just SOL win or loose. 

 

I spent quite a bit to just have the Judge say "Guilty" in less than a minute, and it seems that everyone I tell the story to knows exactly who I am talking about (game warden, which probably puts a name in many of your heads too) so he has a rep for charging people with BS but the system allows it.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Omega

[E4 No More]

Well yea, no matter what the lawyers and the court wins.  But what about the defendant, it takes quite a bit of money to defend yourself against BS charges and many times you're just SOL win or loose. 

 

I spent quite a bit to just have the Judge say "Guilty" in less than a minute, and it seems that everyone I tell the story to knows exactly who I am talking about (game warden, which probably puts a name in many of your heads too) so he has a rep for charging people with BS but the system allows it.

If you are going to worry about that in a defensive situation then you might as well not defend yourself.

[chances R]

Well the law I cited seems to try and put the onus on the plaintiff in the civil suit when it addresses the reimbursement of fees as OS pointed out.

[Dennis1209]

And the criteria for evidence to find you guilty is a lot lower in a civil court. It might be harder to convict you in criminal court but you might also loose your freedom. In civil court you are not risking your freedom but it is also easier for you to loose everything.

 

And one more thing a lot of people do not realize is anyone can file a lawsuit for anything and it must be heard by a judge. Someone can bring a civil suit against someone else for any reason and no matter how ludicrous the lawsuit is the lawsuit must be heard before it can be thrown out. And call me crazy but I would NEVER find myself in front of a judge without an attorney by my side, no matter how crazy the lawsuit might sound. Fortunately there are also remedies for those who have been hit with a frivolous lawsuit.

 

Have the courts started garnishing welfare deposits, food stamps, WIC, Section 8, etc.? Has alchemy discovered getting blood out of petrified turnips :ugh:  The courts can impose any "remedy" they desire but, collecting it is another matter. Even an attorney will advise a client not to pursue damages / loss if there's nothing to be gained.

 

Bottom line: If you get up in the morning to go to work, you still lose. JMHO

[Omega]

If you are going to worry about that in a defensive situation then you might as well not defend yourself.

No, I would not give it a second thought during an SD situation.  The only thing I worry about during those events is placing all my shots on the target and not getting any new holes.

[chances R]

IMO this is another reason I point out in my classes to avoid shooting someone if at all possible...there are no guarantees. With that mindset one can hopefully avoid all the unforeseen pitfalls in the aftermath of a shooting and hopefully be able to mentally deal with it as well.

[Oh Shoot]

Well the law I cited seems to try and put the onus on the plaintiff in the civil suit when it addresses the reimbursement of fees as OS pointed out.

 

Seems more likely than not that you'd never see a dime from the type of people who would be suing you for shooting their criminal loved one.

 

- OS

[bersaguy]

I had a situation very much like this one happen to a friend of mine in very clear cut case of self defense with my friend shooting and killing a would be home invader and wounding his accomplice bad enough he was alive when police arrived with paramedics. Both men were armed when they kicked in his back door and entered his kitchen. A neighbor called him and warned him about to bad guys moving around in his back yard about 9:30 one night.

 

 

He called the police and told them he had people snooping around his back door. The dispatcher ask him if he had a gun and he said yes and the dispatcher said we have cars in route but the closest to him is still at least 11 minutes out so arm your self and defend yourself until help arrives and keep the line open and I will remain on line. About 2 minutes later the dispatcher hear the kicking in of the door and the home owner told them to drop their weapons and one shot from a small caliber weapon and then a second and then he heard the sound of a heavy caliber gun fire 3 times and he told the cars in route that shots are fired at the location. When they arrived they found two bad guys on the kitchen floor.

 

 

 

One was pronounced at the scene with 2 gun shot wounds center mass and the other one was hit in lower right side and bleeding profusely but non life threatening and being transported. The police began their investigation by taking pictures of the damage to the door and frame area all over the kitchen being proof that the bad guys were not just invited in. Friend was never charged but was sued by family members of both bad guys in Civil Court.

 

 

He hired a relatively good attorney and the attorney filed counter suits doubling the amounts in damages both Plaintiffs were asking for and added his fees in. When the counter suits were filed both of the plaintiffs in the cases weighed the facts if they lost they would both risk losing their homes and almost everything they owned so they dropped the charges and the judge in the case still slapped them with my buddies attorney's fees and they had to pay him.

 

 

 

Not every case turns out this way but I was glad for my friend. He was only just back from Afghanistan 3 months from his 3rd and final tour of duty. The bad guys sure did pick the wrong house that night but he did everything by the book plus that call from the neighbor was really the beginning of the end for the bad guys and he did thank the nice old lady that lives next door to his family. He and his wife took her out for a nice dinner and since then because he was concerned about her security has put all new dead bolts on her home and had a small security system installed for her and he pays the monthly service on it. With him no good turn goes unrewarded and that night he feels she may have just saved his life by giving him time to get his family protected and his gun and phone......................... :up:  :up:  :up:  

Edited November 19, 2014 by bersaguy