High end 1911's, what's the big deal?

[10-Ring]

Okay I'm prepared to be nailed to the wall for this one but I must know.  Seriously I feel like this is a question that my wife or mother would ask, but here goes.  I love the 1911 platform and one was on my bucket list for years.  About two years ago a Kimber Custom II, which is on Kimber's low end, came my way at the right price and I picked it up.  As a shooter I love this gun.  I have zero complaints about it, it has never failed me.  I see how you could spend a few hundred dollars on cosmetics such as grips, stippling, etc. but I'm talking about function.  I've shoot 1911's in the $500 range and really liked some of them and thought that they would be worth having.  However, this particular gun is one of those, and I think most of you will know what I mean, I just shoot very well with that gun.  It's almost like I can't miss with it.  I'm no championship marksman, just a guy that has been around guns my whole life, I've done a lot of shooting and am probably a better shot than the average Joe, but I'm nothing special.  I had no trouble getting 3" grouping at 25 yards with this gun.  I can't say that for anything else I've shot save for maybe some higher end S&W revolvers.  So what is the difference between a $1000ish dollar 1911 and a $3000 1911?  I do realize that the gun is only going to be as accurate as the person shooting it, I just can't see what I would get for 3X the price that I don't already have.

[leroy]

Excellent questions... Here's my answer... For the xtra $2K... Pride in ownership, a few more do-dads, bragging rights... By the way, im ok with all them myself... All that bein said; ... I'm kinda like Scrooge  McDuck... I'd rather put the $2K in my pocket and buy more stuff i like...

 

leroy scrooge

[btq96r]

I could see myself shelling out the dough for a Springfield 1911 TRP  For whatever reason, I think that thing is beautiful.  I also have a friend who swears by his SA 1911 and has for over 10 years, so I know their quality from a trusted source.  But I wouldn't want to pay much more than that model is going for.

 

I'm far from the best shot out there, but I'm confident enough in my abilities should they become needed.  I'll save the difference in cost and not pay for extra's I can't shoot up to performance wise.

Edited November 17, 2014 by btq96r

[Steelharp]

Are Springfields American or Brazilian? Seems like I remember Brazil stamped on them...

[Sam1]

From my experience... Kimbers are not any better than any other decent 1911, but you do pay a premium price for that name engraved on the side.  Wesson was the smoothest 'out of the box' 1911 I've ever shot.  $2000+ worth of smooth?  hell no.

 

Learned from this ATI Fatboy that you can take a cheap(er) 1911, invest a few hundred in work and parts and have it shoot as good if not better than those high-end ones.  Mine now has about $600 of purely functional upgrades on a $600 gun and I would put it against any 1911 on this board outside of some dedicated crazy match pistol.

 

There are just so many options available for every single part of a 1911 that you could easily put a low end one in the same arena as a high end gun for a fraction of the cost.

[expendable]

The two higher end 1911's that I have aren't quite in the $3000 dollar range more the $1500-$2000.
They were both built for a specific type of shooting (bullseye) and both came with test targets that are 2 inches or less at 50 yards.

So for my money I got accuracy or at least the gun is, if I shoot a 6 or 7 I know it was me and not the guns fault.
Also there is a different feel to the guns, I think it has to do with all of the hand fitting.
It's hard to explain but if you pick up a Les Baer or Rock River like I have you will notice the difference.

Kurt

[runco]

You know this kinda of reminds me when I was into cars years ago.  One could buy a Camaro or Mustang on the cheap, and invest in building motors, trick transmissions, tires, and gears, and have a real good handling car with lots of muscle.  Lots of self pride and craftsmanship.  On the other hand, if money is not a problem, then a fine Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghinis, are very nice too, straight from the factory.  I guess what separates these other than cash is the highly skilled craftsmanship that is poured in them from the factory, vs. the shade tree redneck that can buy parts from the local speed shop and build a engine. 

 

Pssst, when I was young and money was a challenge, I use to build engines vs. buying a fine sports car.  Now that I am older, wiser and with a little extra money, I would rather just buy it already built with all the bells and whistles. 

 

Is this really the difference in the 1911 world?

[gregintenn]

A $20 Timex will keep perfect time. Why do people buy Rolexes? Same thing.

[chuckstur]

I had no trouble getting 3" grouping at 25 yards with this gun.

If you can hold 3" at 25 yards you are a heck of a shooter.

[suspiciousmind]

The 1911 feels like a such a workhorse pistol that spending thousands on one seems like it's for those "other" people. I relate everything to guitars as I own a wide range of instruments worth between $300-$8,000. I play the hell out of my $8,000 guitar that I got part of an endorsement, probably because I didn't pay a dime for it, and honestly wouldn't drop that much dime for a guitar knowing I can pay between one to two grand and get a beautifully playing instrument.

I suppose some people feel like they are a better shooter when they spend more money on a gun, but you give me a no name guitar or a $6,000 custom shop Les Paul and I'll make it sound good.

If I had a super expensive custom Wilsom Combat or whatever... I'd shoot the shit out of it! Anyway, I'd buy a less expensive one and customize it myself. That's more fun! Maybe when I'm old I'll have less patience. :lol:

[Jonnin]

 I had no trouble getting 3" grouping at 25 yards with this gun. 

 

 

*some* of the high end stuff can make a smaller group than that at 50 yards -- these are expensive competition guns for professionals, yes.  But they can do it, and the small # of shooters who can pull it off need such a gun.

 

What you are paying for is effectively a hand made gun.  Its hand fitted every which way, the trigger job is carefully done, and more.   Most people don't need all that.  Just like most people don't need a $10k competition "sniper" rifle.   Just like most folks don't need a 1/4 million dollar sports car.  Anyone who has the cash can buy pricy stuff ... whether they need it or not.   A few people "need" it ... they get paid to win competitions, its a tool for their job.  

[Glock30]

The best 1911 I ever shot was a Sig from the TacPac. I'd set up water bottles and went back to ~50 yards just for kicks. I blew up a bottle on the first ever shot out of the gun. Didn't have such Tier 1 accuracy the rest of the day, but the first round was priceless. :)

Edited November 17, 2014 by Glock30

[10-Ring]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  Seems that the big difference from this informal poll is a hand crafted weapon vs. a mass produced weapon.  Makes sense.  Though I'm sure that I could appreciate a high dollar 1911 I think I'll just keep being happy with my middle of the road Kimber and buy something else (or 2 or 3) to go along with it 

[hipower]

From my point of view 10-ring, that's a wise choice. But it's just my opinion and my experience. There's a lot to be said for using that saved(? LOL) money for ammo to practice and buying more guns.

 

I'm a fair to good shooter in my estimation, and have owned several Kimbers and Dan Wessons. Although these are supposedly not in the same category as the Les Baer, Wilson Combat, and others; they were capable of anything I could achieve and far more.

 

I came to the realization that an expensive gun really didn't increase my abilities. At least not enough to be discernable, and not for the money I put into them.

 

Now I'm not a competitive shooter, and long, long way from being a Rob Latham or a Jerry Mucilek; but my Sig, Springfield, Colt and RIA 1911 pistols work just fine for me.

[DWARREN123]

Same with me, I would rather have a working gun than show off piece.

I do have to agree with the OP on the Kimber Custom II, mine is very good and feels better than some more expensive 1911s I have handled.

Only thing is the plastic MSH, I do not know if I can live with it though there has been no reported problems with it.

[chances R]

There are price point diminishing returns in just about everything.  Buy what you can reasonably afford and enjoy.  If you don't like it, keep it, sell it, etc. and get another.  I enjoy 1911's probably because of history, but for ruggedness/dependability and minimal care, IMO nothing beats a M&P 45 and you still have money left over.

[peejman]

Having been a band geek all through school, I learned that the sounds that comes from the instrument is 90% player, 10% instrument.  Can a super quality instrument make a superb player sound that little bit better?  Absolutely yes.  If you give that same instrument to a hack like me, I'll still sound like a hack. 

 

My experience with the accuracy of guns is similar.  However, I still find the "tolerances no CNC machine can match" line in the Les Baer commercials quite amusing, mostly because it's complete nonsense. 

Edited November 17, 2014 by peejman

[SmokyBaer]

Had 3 Kimbers... Kept the one that shoots tight like my Baer and Wilson. 
There are differences in each and every pistol.  If yours shoots right, keep it!

[Lumber_Jack]

Are Springfields American or Brazilian? Seems like I remember Brazil stamped on them...

The lower end models are made in Brazil, the upper level are American.

[E4 No More]

What does it matter how other people spend their money? The idea that low end is just as good is laughable. I've had low end Colts and now a high end Ed Brown. The Colts cannot compare, but I'm not going to give a crap about whether someone else buys a Rock Island or not. That's their business.

[DJTC45]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  Seems that the big difference from this informal poll is a hand crafted weapon vs. a mass produced weapon.  Makes sense.  Though I'm sure that I could appreciate a high dollar 1911 I think I'll just keep being happy with my middle of the road Kimber and buy something else (or 2 or 3) to go along with it 

I f you ever get down this way holler at me and I'll let you shoot a couple of $3000 1911's I have and then you can tell me the difference.

[DaveTN]

The difference is the ability of the barrel to lock up in the same orientation to the slide every time. Mechanically that is a fine line between success and failure. If you can machine the barrel, barrel bushing, slide and frame to a perfect fit; you have success, but if you tighten the fit to perfect or near perfect you may be in trouble when you apply the coefficient of thermal expansion. Therefore you need enough clearance to repeat but not so tight it locks up or drags when it heats up.

Use to be those guns were machined “one off” and hand fitted. Today those can produced in much higher numbers.

Will a custom built target 1911 operate perfectly with Bubba doing mag dumps? No. But he will blame the magazines, ammo and everything else before he admits he’s using the gun for something other than it was designed for.

The biggest factor is the shooter. People who don’t have the ability or don’t shoot a lot will spend $3500 on a handgun and expect it to shoot 5 shot touching groups at 25 or 50 yards.

So what will happen if you spend $3k on a 1911? You will tighten up that group to as tight as you have the ability to do. Is it worth it? Not to me, I don’t shoot in competition anymore. If I did I would probably do it. But that’s your call.

So the bottom line is you get the physics, metallurgy, and ballistics that you pay for, the rest is dependent on your skill.

Your revolvers don’t suffer from the problem of the barrel and the sights moving separately; so you shoot it better; we all do.

[DJTC45]

The difference is the ability of the barrel to lock up in the same orientation to the slide every time. Mechanically that is a fine line between success and failure. If you can machine the barrel, barrel bushing, slide and frame to a perfect fit; you have success, but if you tighten the fit to perfect or near perfect you may be in trouble when you apply the coefficient of thermal expansion. Therefore you need enough clearance to repeat but not so tight it locks up or drags when it heats up.

Use to be those guns were machined “one off” and hand fitted. Today those can produced in much higher numbers.

Will a custom built target 1911 operate perfectly with Bubba doing mag dumps? No. But he will blame the magazines, ammo and everything else before he admits he’s using the gun for something other than it was designed for.

The biggest factor is the shooter. People who don’t have the ability or don’t shoot a lot will spend $3500 on a handgun and expect it to shoot 5 shot touching groups at 25 or 50 yards.

So what will happen if you spend $3k on a 1911? You will tighten up that group to as tight as you have the ability to do. Is it worth it? Not to me, I don’t shoot in competition anymore. If I did I would probably do it. But that’s your call.

So the bottom line is you get the physics, metallurgy, and ballistics that you pay for, the rest is dependent on your skill.

Your revolvers don’t suffer from the problem of the barrel and the sights moving separately; so you shoot it better; we all do.

Sorry to disappoint you but I've ran 5000rnds. down my Wilson CQB Elite, 6500rnds. down my Night Hawk GRP that I have around $3800 in it and I carry it every day and a few more 1000rnds down the other ones I own. I didn't spend the money on what I have just to shoot "bullseye" and as far a doing mag dumps go well......... and I shoot these 1911's better than a revolver.

[DaveTN]

Sorry to disappoint you but I've ran 5000rnds. down my Wilson CQB Elite, 6500rnds. down my Night Hawk GRP that I have around $3800 in it and I carry it every day and a few more 1000rnds down the other ones I own. I didn't spend the money on what I have just to shoot "bullseye" and as far a doing mag dumps go well......... and I shoot these 1911's better than a revolver.

Why would any of that disappoint me? Other than the revolver comment (which was humor) we haven’t disagreed on anything. I didn’t say or imply you couldn’t put thousands of rounds through a quality 1911 or that you shouldn’t carry one. You paid for quality; good for you. The OP wanted to know what the difference was. The difference is you get a finely tuned mechanical device that is better in fit, form, and function.

[Erik88]

While I agree that a $2,500 Ed Brown may not shoot any more accurately than a $400 Rock Island, it looks a hell of a lot better.

 

Someday I will spend a ridiculous amount of money on a new Ed Brown. I think they are one of the sexiest guns on the planet and I'm willing to spend that much money on something I can pass down to my kids someday.