NFA Kinda Circumvented

[chipperi]

I have been doing butt loads of research, and I think my next build is going to be a 9mm AR Pistol 10.5in barrel, and a SIG brace on the buffer tube...100% legal no NFA or ATF required as long as I don't put a forward grip, or rifle length upper on it.

[173rdABN]

What would a rifle length upper do to change anything?

[chipperi]

You cannot put 16"+ Barrel on a pistol once you have the lower is deemed a rifle receiver. If you put the pistol upper back on you have an unregistered SBR.

[cz75b]

as has been stated here before if its initially built as a pistol you can change it back and forth as much as you want.also you can put a vertical grip on it as long as the oal is 26" not including the muzzle device unless its permanent.

[Photoguy67]

cz75b is right, you can go pistol to rifle and back all you want, just can't go rifle to pistol.

[chipperi]

Ahh ok my misunderstanding. Thats why you have to order the lower stripped and make sure the paper says Other or Pistol and not rifle.

[KKing]

When you transfer your receiver it will only be transferred to you as "receiver", "other". Edited November 14, 2014 by KKing

[Dolomite_supafly]

You can put whatever length upper you want on "pistol" lower. A "rifle" lower must always have a barrel of at least 16", not including the muzzle device unless permanently attached IAW ATF regulations, unless it is registered as a SBR first.

 

And actually if the overall length of the entire "pistol" is 26", or more, you CAN put a VFG on it and it becomes a "firearm". You cannot include any muzzle device unless it is permanently attached to the barrel IAW ATF regulations. Adding a VFG to a "pistol" over 26" makes it a "firearm" but adding a VFG to a "pistol" under 26" makes it an AOW.

 

With an AR15 you can take a "pistol" and turn it into a "rifle" and then return it to "pistol" as long as during the process you do not inadvertently build a NFA weapon. With a bare receiver if you build a "pistol" first you can go "rifle" then back to "pistol". You cannot attach a stock to any lower that has a barrel of less than 16" unless it is a registered SBR first. And you cannot attach a VFG to any "pistol" if the overall length is less than 26" unless it is a registered AOW first.

 

Now if you have a receiver that was a rifle originally you CANNOT built a pistol. Additionally, if you buy a stripped lower and build it into a "rifle" first you cannot build it into a "pistol" after that.

 

And according the ATF it does not matter what the lower transfers as, it is what it was initially built into either by the factory or by the buyer. So you buy a completed lower and your FFL transfers it at a "rifle". Because it was never built as a "rifle" it can be built into a "pistol" first then go back and forth. But if the lower transfers as anything and then it was built into a "rifle" first it must remain a rifle.

 

Basically it is built as a rifle first, always a rifle.

 

I am tired but I am pretty sure I worded everything right, if not Oh Shoot will come along and make corrections as needed.

[otnman]

Ok, so I was new to ARs, I bought my lower. ..I have no idea how it was registered...how would I find out? Why do all ffls not automatically register as a pistol? What would be the downside for them? This just seems like stupid beuracracy to me...

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[chipperi]

If you bought a stripped lower it transfered as an "other" as it is not yet a rifle or a pistol.

Edited November 14, 2014 by chipperi

[Oh Shoot]

Ok, so I was new to ARs, I bought my lower. ..I have no idea how it was registered...how would I find out?

 
You'd have to go to FFL who did it and ask him. But it doesn't matter. As Dolo suggested, what an FFL puts on 4473, correctly or incorrectly, doesn't actually determine legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of a particular future configuration of it. If you're sure it was a new virgin lower,  you're good.
 

Why do all ffls not automatically register as a pistol? What would be the downside for them? This just seems like stupid beuracracy to me...

 

Several reasons, but mainly because a firearm can't be a handgun or long gun without an attached barrel, simple as that.  The "other firearm" category wasn't even there until 8/2008. It was actually a much belated change to come into line with SCOTUS decision regarding pistol/rifle some 16 years previously, and with the actual CFRs written to explain USC.

 

Also, 2 or more "handgun" purchases in same 5 days triggers another form that must be submitted.

 

- OS

Edited November 14, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[peejman]

So during the process of building my TGO AR, the complete 16" upper arrived and was installed before I received the stock. So technically I built a pistol, then made a rifle when the stock was installed. So I can legally turn it back into a pistol. Had the converse happened and the stock been installed before the upper, I'd have "once a rifle, always a rifle". Correct?

[Oh Shoot]

So during the process of building my TGO AR, the complete 16" upper arrived and was installed before I received the stock. So technically I built a pistol, then made a rifle when the stock was installed. So I can legally turn it back into a pistol. Had the converse happened and the stock been installed before the upper, I'd have "once a rifle, always a rifle". Correct?

 

Federally, technically seems certainly yes, as there is no barrel length or OAL mandated for a handgun and it's clear that a carbine buffer tube is not unlawful on a pistol. It's not a defense I would necessarily shout from the heavens or even ask ATF for an opinion on, but it is one mentioned frequently as being perfectly in line with federal law and rulings and I suppose push come to shove they'd have to suck it up and publicly agree.

 

There is I suppose the technical definition of a handgun in TN law of a handgun having under a 12" barrel, but on the other hand it doesn't say what it becomes if it is, or that you can't make a differently configured pistol from whatever it is either, so as in all other situations I know of, TN defaults to federal firearm definitions and rulings.

 

There is also of course, the sheer extraordinary evidence if would take to prove someone who bought a virgin lower actually did something unlawful with the pistol/rifle thing in the first place. Like folks documenting it on the internet. ;) ;)

 

Before 1992 it was much simpler for them on this issue and also "constructive possession" -- once a rifle, always a rifle and any possible illegal configuration prosecutable. It speaks volumes about the culture of the agency that they didn't actually publicly acknowledge these changes until 2011, IMNSHO.

 

- OS

Edited November 15, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[peejman]

Only our government could come up with something so confusing and stupid.

[Oh Shoot]

Only our government could come up with something so confusing and stupid.

 

NFA was our first gift from Chicago, the city that keeps on giving.

 

- OS

[Currently]

Beg your pardon, not a gift but a curse ...

We have two more years of another curse that we have to keep a close eye on.

Even though he's just been neutered, we still have to stay on top of issues.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Beg your pardon, not a gift but a curse ...

We have two more years of another curse that we have to keep a close eye on.

Even though he's just been neutered, we still have to stay on top of issues.

 6 more years, potentially 10.

[Garufa]

Even though he's just been neutered, ....

 

Not quite yet.  He still has that pen and will be issuing EO's...as soon as next week on immigration.  He also has some very sharp lawyers on his side.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Garufa

[Randall53]

Wow...and some people say we don't have enough gun laws.  :wall: