Purpose of a 80% lower?

[Tobashadow]

Is there really any point other than hiding the fact you have it from the government?

I can't find a 80% any cheaper than a ready to go stripped lower.

Once I'd account for the time and special tooling and blocks I'd have two separate builds done conventionally.

[musicman]

You pretty much have it all figured out.

The only other thing I can figure out is that some folks really enjoy building their rifles, and this allows them to control just a little more of the process.

[Photoguy67]

To hide it from the gobment and for some people just to make it feel more their own. Hey look what I made type thing.

[cz75b]

well major thing for me would be you can get it with no rollmarks.no company or anything for that matter,and of course as you pointed out unserialed.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Hiding from the government makes no sense. If you want an AR lower that is not tied to you just go to any show and buy one from one of the guys standing outside. No one, especially the government, is the wiser to you buying the lower. There are tons on the various websites as well.

 

With the way the ATF is raiding those selling 80% lowers for customer lists I would be more afraid of buying an 80% lower than a serialized lower from someone face to face.

[2.ooohhh]

I bought a few from anderson who often has sales on them with them getting down as low as $35. Once you have the jigs, you save transfer fees which add up if you're buying/building a few.

 

http://www.andersonrifles.com/product/80-machined-lower/

[Tobashadow]

Hiding from the government makes no sense. If you want an AR lower that is not tied to you just go to any show and buy one from one of the guys standing outside. No one, especially the government, is the wiser to you buying the lower. There are tons on the various websites as well.

With the way the ATF is raiding those selling 80% lowers for customer lists I would be more afraid of buying an 80% lower than a serialized lower from someone face to face.

You got that right, I've been down that path before long ago. Buy a product and then they decide to outlaw it because a corporation says so and the government raids the stores and websites and then you get the corporate lawyers sending letters to the people they got shipped to accusing them of wrong doing for owning a product that can be used for one illegal purpose out of hundreds of legal ones.

Yha my long standing policy of not accepting registered letters saved me from the hassle of proving I was doing no wrong on that one. Anyone that signed for it (my step brother did) got a letter the next week from the lawyers office wanting a settlement and admission of guilt. It took him months and a lawyer fighting it to get them to piss off.

I'd hate to go thru that with the government which kinda made me gun shy for awhile on the Sig brace I bought.

[Tobashadow]

I bought a few from anderson who often has sales on them with them getting down as low as $35. Once you have the jigs, you save transfer fees which add up if you're buying/building a few.

http://www.andersonrifles.com/product/80-machined-lower/

At $49+10 background check for the last two ready to go Anderson lowers I've bought, it's going to take awhile for that jig to break even in cost.

[runco]

One thing for sure, if you do complete a 80% lower, you will never be able to legally sell it or trade it.  If you do want one off the grid, simply buy like mentioned above, from someone at a gun show who doesn't want a bill of sale or papers. 

[Oh Shoot]

One thing for sure, if you do complete a 80% lower, you will never be able to legally sell it or trade it. ..

 

Bzzzzt. There is no federal prohibition against selling or transferring homemade firearms, as long as you are not "in the business" of doing so -- rules the same as any other firearm. No serial number required either.

 

- OS

Edited November 12, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

One thing for sure, if you do complete a 80% lower, you will never be able to legally sell it or trade it.  If you do want one off the grid, simply buy like mentioned above, from someone at a gun show who doesn't want a bill of sale or papers. 

 

Wrong.

 

You can legally sell ANY gun you make, including 80% lowers.

 

The key is intent when it was made. If you intended to sell it when you made it then, yes, it is against the law unless you are a manufacturer. But if you build it then decide later to sell it you are perfectly legal. So how does one prove intent? Normally with the numbers. A person who builds lowers with the intent to sell often sell a lot of them a year while someone who built them then later decided to sell would rarely sell more than one or two a year.

 

At any rate any firearm, regardless of builder, can be sold providing the buyer can legally own it and as long as the gun itself is not against the law to possess.

[Oh Shoot]

Wrong.

 

You can legally sell ANY gun you make, including 80% lowers.

 

The key is intent when it was made. If you intended to sell it when you made it then, yes, it is against the law unless you are a manufacturer. But if you build it then decide later to sell it you are perfectly legal. So how does one prove intent? Normally with the numbers. A person who builds lowers with the intent to sell often sell a lot of them a year while someone who built them then later decided to sell would rarely sell more than one or two a year.

 

At any rate any firearm, regardless of builder, can be sold providing the buyer can legally own it and as long as the gun itself is not against the law to possess.

 

I must always respectfully beg to differ on that when you say it. Intent alone is not a factor, nor the time factor.  You can legally intend to resale a firearm at the same time you make it, or buy it.

 

The test is whether you are "in the business" of doing so. Intending to sell a firearm for non-livlihood and profit purposes, such as enhancing a collection, is perfectly legal.

 

See 18 USC § 921 - Definitions, regarding "in the business" and "principal objective of livelihood and profit"

 

Being "in the business" requires a license. Doing the same for other purposes does not. Same for selling, manufacturing, or gunsmithing.

 

- OS

Edited November 12, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[runco]

Do either of you care to state a law for or against?  My comment is based upon some other information that I read, I will try to find it. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I must always respectfully beg to differ on that when you say it. Intent alone is not a factor, nor the time factor.  You can legally intend to resale a firearm at the same time you make it, or buy it.

 

The test is whether you are "in the business" of doing so. Intending to sell a firearm for non-livlihood and profit purposes, such as enhancing a collection, is perfectly legal.

 

See 18 USC § 921 - Definitions, regarding "in the business" and "principal objective of livelihood and profit"

 

Being "in the business" requires a license. Doing the same for other purposes does not. Same for selling, manufacturing, or gunsmithing.

 

- OS

It was an example, not a steadfast number. There are no numbers or timeframes listed.

[runco]

How about this point #12, its not clear, but is cloudy:

 

http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/pressroom/receiver-blanks-Q%26As

[Oh Shoot]

Do either of you care to state a law for or against?  My comment is based upon some other information that I read, I will try to find it. 

 

Can't quote a law that doesn't exist.  Legal behavior is seldom mentioned in laws, unless it helps clarify the extent of the illegal behavior.

 

How about this point #12, its not clear, but is cloudy:

 

http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/pressroom/receiver-blanks-Q%26As

 

Like much of ATF's "faqs", an over-simplification if taken alone, but did you not read #11?

 

- OS

[runco]

So basically what you are saying, there is no specific law protecting, or persecuting. 

 

If you do build a 80% lower, finish it without any intent of building to sale or trade, and then afterwards you simply do not like the finished product, you can sell it or trade it without any legal concern whatsoever, civil liability is a different matter if the next person encounters a claim from craftsmanship. 

 

So if I did build one, didn't like it, and sold it, and later was arrested on trumped up charges, and paid $1000s of dollars for my defense, and in the end win, was it worth it?  So if I am correct with my new assertion, then I do stand corrected? 

 

But, then no real legal advice is being offered one way or another by anyone here, so I am really on my own to make the correct and final judgment!  ;)

[Oh Shoot]

So basically what you are saying, there is no specific law protecting, or persecuting.

If you do build a 80% lower, finish it without any intent of building to sale or trade, and then afterwards you simply do not like the finished product, you can sell it or trade it without any legal concern whatsoever, civil liability is a different matter if the next person encounters a claim from craftsmanship.

Yes and no. You can even build it with the intent to sale or trade, as long as it does not fit the conditions of "being in the business".

"The term “engaged in the business” means—
...as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured"

"The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection"
 

So if I did build one, didn't like it, and sold it, and later was arrested on trumped up charges, and paid $1000s of dollars for my defense, and in the end win, was it worth it? So if I am correct with my new assertion, then I do stand corrected?

But, then no real legal advice is being offered one way or another by anyone here, so I am really on my own to make the correct and final judgment! ;)

That is correct. I am not a lawyer. I have no legal advice. The ATF decides if they prosecute you for being in the business without a license. Note however, there is no difference between this and simply selling a firearm you bought at retail -- you could be prosecuted for either if they feel they can prove you did it just for the bucks, and AFAIK the penalty is the same for either.

- OS Edited November 12, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[runco]

Yes and no. You can even build it with the intent to sale or trade, as long as it does not fit the conditions of "being in the business".

"The term “engaged in the business” means—
...as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured"

"The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection"
 

That is correct. I am not a lawyer. I have no legal advice. The ATF decides if they prosecute you for being in the business without a license. Note however, there is no difference between this and simply selling a firearm you bought at retail -- you could be prosecuted for either if they feel they can prove you did it just for the bucks, and AFAIK the penalty is the same for either.

- OS

For others sake, I hope you are right.  I for one don't sell, don't trade, and I don't ever see me buying a 80% lower.  Thanks.

[Clod Stomper]

Yes and no. You can even build it with the intent to sale or trade, as long as it does not fit the conditions of "being in the business".

"The term “engaged in the business” means—
...as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured"

"The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection"
 

That is correct. I am not a lawyer. I have no legal advice. The ATF decides if they prosecute you for being in the business without a license. Note however, there is no difference between this and simply selling a firearm you bought at retail -- you could be prosecuted for either if they feel they can prove you did it just for the bucks, and AFAIK the penalty is the same for either.

- OS

 

And THIS, my friends, is why the federal government should be involved in neither alcohol, tobacco, nor firearms.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah...  and explosives.

[2.ooohhh]

At $49+10 background check for the last two ready to go Anderson lowers I've bought, it's going to take awhile for that jig to break even in cost.

Jig only cost me the time I spent making it and some scrap, and mine is MUCH simpler than some commercially marketed with intent to make machining a lower with a hand drill or drill press easier. I technically don't need a jig with the mill, but it simplifies repeat setup (especially depth) of a few of the steps with my mill which helps consistency. 

 

If I was a better machinist and had more free time I'd just start with a block of aluminum and the mill. 

 

I don't reload, machine, or build my own rifles to save any money but when one hobby can help save a little here or there on another hobby it gives me something to tell the wife I "saved money" on.  :pleased: (I need all the help I can get)

 

I also occasionally wear costumes around to raise money for children's charities and someone in that group questioned my 3d printing of a component for one of my costumes stating "It's only $20 to buy one" So what, I spent around $2 in ABS printing it with machine I've already got and had fun doing it. :up: 

[Clod Stomper]

Jig only cost me the time I spent making it and some scrap, and mine is MUCH simpler than some commercially marketed with intent to make machining a lower with a hand drill or drill press easier. I technically don't need a jig with the mill, but it simplifies repeat setup (especially depth) of a few of the steps with my mill which helps consistency. 

 

If I was a better machinist and had more free time I'd just start with a block of aluminum and the mill. 

 

I don't reload, machine, or build my own rifles to save any money but when one hobby can help save a little here or there on another hobby it gives me something to tell the wife I "saved money" on.  :pleased: (I need all the help I can get)

 

I also occasionally wear costumes around to raise money for children's charities and someone in that group questioned my 3d printing of a component for one of my costumes stating "It's only $20 to buy one" So what, I spent around $2 in ABS printing it with machine I've already got and had fun doing it. :up: 

 

Yah.  Apparently OP isn't a tinkerer.  

 

To paraphrase an old cliche...  "It's a Tinkerer thing.  You wouldn't understand."

 

I like building my own stuff.  Simple as that.

 

It's not cheaper, it's not easier.  But it is funner and more rewarding.  

 

Edit:  My first 80% lower was finished without the benefit of a jig.  Only an unfinished lower and some obscure measurements.  It ain't perfect, but it does function.  Even took it to an Appleseed.  I didn't make Rifleman that time, but it was my own fault, not that of the machine.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Clod Stomper

[Tobashadow]

Jig only cost me the time I spent making it and some scrap, and mine is MUCH simpler than some commercially marketed with intent to make machining a lower with a hand drill or drill press easier. I technically don't need a jig with the mill, but it simplifies repeat setup (especially depth) of a few of the steps with my mill which helps consistency.

If I was a better machinist and had more free time I'd just start with a block of aluminum and the mill.

I don't reload, machine, or build my own rifles to save any money but when one hobby can help save a little here or there on another hobby it gives me something to tell the wife I "saved money" on. :pleased: (I need all the help I can get)

I also occasionally wear costumes around to raise money for children's charities and someone in that group questioned my 3d printing of a component for one of my costumes stating "It's only $20 to buy one" So what, I spent around $2 in ABS printing it with machine I've already got and had fun doing it. :up:

See that changes the factors, you have a mill that I'm sure you use for other things, unlike the standard Joe doing a 80% lower. But if your buying a commercial jig then the cost savings is way in the red.

And yes I'm a tinker / fabricator and well capable of building a lower from a bare block but other than to say I did it i just see zero advantage.

If the cost of a 80% was 1/3rd the cost of a stripped lower id be all over it but at that price range I have to weigh the cost of time away from my many other projects. Edited November 12, 2014 by Tobashadow

[Capbyrd]

I want to do an 80 and fully intend to after the new year.   But it has nothing to do with saving money or hiding from the government.  My 80 will likely get SBR'd so it will be registered anyways.  I want to do it BECAUSE I CAN and because I think it will be fun.  I enjoy tinkering.  Even if it costs me more money. 

 

 

You don't like that answer?  Good for you.  I don't care.  Its my money and my time and who the hell are you to question my life?  If you can't justify it to yourself, then move on cause it ain't for you.  

[Capbyrd]

Sorry, that was a bit more hostile than I would have liked.