Palin under investigation --again

[Smith]

Lol...

My I struck a nerve here!

I can only imagine the uproar in the GOP if Obama (Mr or Mrs) or Biden (Mr or Mrs) had done the same thing! And people call me a hypocrite!

No doubt the "Palin factor" has worn off for most Americans (surveys support this) and people are really starting to wonder about the entire GOP ticket. Polling supports this. (www.fivethirtyeight.com for expert analysis and summaries of the polls on a daily basis along with electoral simulations, etc.)

As for my support of Obama, while still being in the NRA and moderating this forum:

1) I was asked to moderate this forum back when it became clear to the admins that I knew my way around the political block and that I was a resource for those who wanted to be politically active in support of the 2A.

2) As far as I know, there is no political litmus test to be a member of or moderator of this forum. The fact that I vehemently disagree with most of the political views expressed here should not matter. In fact it should be welcomed as part of a diverse set of voices that help make any community more interesting and informative.

3) My membership in NRA is well-known, as is my support and hard work for the NRA Foundation and the NRA Education and Training Department. (I am an endowment life member of NRA -just have not updated my profile.) If anyone doubts my dedication to the cause, I can offer a list of various NRA employees and volunteers to vouch for my efforts. Membership in the NRA does not require I be a Republican or a McCain supporter. (In fact, until recently, McCain was not seen as a friend of the NRA by the NRA.) I clearly disagree with the self-serving political opinions of NRA. I've made peace with that. Their good outweighs their bad. (I am not the first NRA member to disagree with the Fairfax bunch, I doubt I will be the last.)

4) My support for Obama is based on many factors, his 2A record not being one of them. To blindly support one candidate over another based on a single issue is incredibly short-sighted. Sure, I'd like Obama to be a stronger advocate for the 2A, but the reality is that there is such a mess to be cleaned up in DC that gun issues simply wont be a priority in the new administration, no matter who wins. I feel quite comfortable that the jack-booted thugs wont be taking my guns away anytime in the next 8 years.

5) My political views, while well-known here, have been very low-key. I stay out of most of the political discussions as they don't interest me and my role here is not to stoke the flame wars. I have been fairly quiet out of respect for the opinions of others. I should be given the same respect and be noted for my restraint.

6) I have been accused on throwing non-factual information up on this forum, been accused of hypocrisy, of making baseless allegations, etc. Let's see what I've had to read about on this forum regarding Obama:

a) That he's buddies with a terrorist. Hmm, he met the guy a couple of times DECADES after his domestic terrorism conviction. Dang, we can't find Bin Laden, might as well hang Obama!

Palin has more experience than Obama. Yeah, right. Let's see Obama was a community organizer (a good thing, by the way), a law professor, a state senator, and a US Senator. (Both of his Senate districts served a population greater than all of Alaska.) Palin ran a town of 6500 people and then one of the smallest states population-wise for less than 2 years. Obama went to Harvard and edited the Law Review there. Palin bounced around 5 colleges before getting that BA.

c) ACORN is evil. ACORN has a long-term record (38 years) of registering and empowering poor/disadvantaged people. How is this bad? They registered 1.3 million this cycle alone. Virtually ALL of the fraudulent registrations noted in the investigations of ACORN were found and reported by -get this- ACORN itself! Zero people fraudulently registered by ACORN have actually voted. Over-zealous volunteers for an organization devoted to doing a good thing makes Obama a bad candidate. There's some awesome logic. (Oh, and would these investigations be "politically motivated?" I guess its ok if the politics suit you.)

d) Obama is a socialist. Please. First look at his record. Then read what socialism is. Then compare the two. He's a Democrat, not a socialist. The "spread it around" comment stoked some fire within the GOP -the same GOP that helped create the current tax system -a system that existed before Obama was a Senator- that in essence causes the top 5% of earners to pay about 50% of the taxes in this country. Spreading it around? Sounds to me like we've been doing this ever since the progressive income tax was instituted -decades before Obama was even born. If support for a progressive income tax makes one socialist, then count all the Republicans, Democrats and others over the decades that supported it as socialist as well.

If John McCain wins in 12 days, life will go on. Things, in fact, will likely be better than they are now. (How could they be worse.) If Obama wins, life will go on as well. And yes, things will likely be better. Obama/McCain to me boils down to what we need right now at this moment in our history. I think my reasons for supporting Obama are exactly the same as General Powell's -we are in need of a transformational leader at this moment. Gen. Powell knows a thing or two about leadership, so I am willing to stand in his company. I think we also like to remind this country that liberals are not bad, in fact quite the opposite. Nothing will help clean up the right-wing imposed tarnish on the reputation of liberals than a liberal in the highest office in the land. When that happens, and then the sky does not fall down, I think the country will be a better place.

Finally, if TGO feels my political views and the supposed intellectual weaknesses of my posts do not warrant support for me as 2A issues moderator position here, then talk to Tungsten. If he wants me to step down, then I will. Its his house, I play ny his rules. So should we all.

-Len

Unabashed gun-toting liberal

For a guy who likes "facts" you sure laid them aside for this one. I know you can do better, I've seen your other post. BTW diversity is not a good thing in ideology, truth is. To reason with a lie is an indication of naiveté or insanity. Check my sig.

[molonlabetn]

Don't worry Len, I know that you do alot of good for us gun-owners here in TN as penance for your misguided political beliefs Don't sweat it. I still think you're alright

My main complaints with Obama are his voting record and professional associations contradicting the so-called moderate stance and loyalty to this country he claims... I have yet to hear anything I disagreed with or found to be untrue from Palin, and think it's hilarious (to the point of being disgusting) the lengths the media have gone to attempt to assassinate her character.

If we really want change, we need somebody in the process who is not already a lock-step, hard-core politician.

[musicman]

And that last sentence is how I see it, Eddie. +1

[Guest flyfishtn]

+1 Eddie, very well said.

[Tim Nunan]

Many here seem to have forgotten this admonition- "Personal attacks will not be tolerated."

[TGO David]

Many here seem to have forgotten this admonition- "Personal attacks will not be tolerated."

Len is a big boy and a moderator. He's perfectly capable to taking care of the thread and the comments being made. Of course, he's doubly cursed in that he is a moderator, since a moderator who moderates a thread that he or she is participating in will invariably be accused of censorship.

[towerclimber37]

Most any time you've addressed me on this forum, it has been one self righteous, hate filled insult after the other. I criticized the politicians. You are the one that made it personal.

Threats of violence? Man, you got problems.

you might want to check your own posts. My posts have not questioned you personally..simply your statements...they don't add up.

I won't condemn you for supporting the Democratic party...heck, that's what America is all about! different viewpoints are often a great way to check your own though process.

What makes me doubt your veracity is your statements that you dislike BOTH parties, yet you seem to criticize only one.

Len is a great guy. he is, by my standards, liberal. I have no problem with that. He doesn't equivocate. he has no need to. He makes some GREAT points when it comes to Tn. state laws and firearm ownership. I'm proud to know him.

what I can't abide is dishonesty and it seems to me that you're not being honest with the rest of us when you say that you dislike both parties, yet you only criticize one. No where in any of my posts have I made any remarks concerning your family. I have only asked that YOU personally explain your views.

I and others have posted facts about Obama and the Democratic party. I have yet to see any links to, or accurate information that refutes the information that I've presented. the only thing I see is "well..I'm not attacking them but that's propoganda put out by a bias source." even though the links have gone back to a paper trail of what actually happened, or you say "well those dirty capitolists have done this!!!" and attempted to get away from refuting the information.

Now I know I'm not the most eloquent speaker. I know I can incite folks to anger. for that I apologize. If you're being disengenuous then it will come out and we'll be well shut of you. If you're being sincere then I believe you have THE most interesting view of modern politics that I've ever seen.

Many folks here on this forum have met me. They know me. I speak my mind..and there's nothing wrong with that. sometimes we disagree...but I don't believe that any of them that met me would ever think I would take liberties of speaking like that of their family. I try to be generous and sometimes to a fault. I work very hard for what I earn and since you don't know..my family works harder than I do. To cast aspersions on them when you don't know them is an insult...and not one I'm willing to let slip past.

as for threats of violence,that's not a threat...that is exactly what would happen. Perhaps you didn't learn manners but that's no excuse. We don't do that sort of thing down here, politics or no.

Edited October 23, 2008 by towerclimber37

[TGO David]

Len is too good of a guy to stop anyone from expressing their opinion, even if the opinion comes in the form of a harsh remark aimed squarely at him. That's one of the reasons I respect him as much as I do and why he's a moderator here on TGO.

I've taken the liberty to remove some of the superfluous remarks from this thread in an attempt to steer it back on topic. The things removed added no value to the thread, nor did they express a view on the issues that could not have been expressed in a more congenial manner.

In fact... one or two of the comments removed were my own, so I too owe Len an apology for messing up his thread.

That said, let's get back to arguing. But do it nicely.

[Guest canynracer]

Agreed...

Len, you do alot for Gun owners, and a lot for TGO...

that being said...you are blinded by Barack H.O. ..but I still love ya...

[towerclimber37]

Back to the topic at hand...

was it Barbara Boxer or Nancy Pelosi that got their britches in a twist when someone questioned THEIR use of a government aircraft to ferry them and their around?

these things are secondary in consideration, in light of the problems that we're dealing with right now.

that being said, BOTH sides need to do something about the rampant use of Govt. aircraft for personal gains.

[Guest Dean_JC78]

Pelosi and she was flying her family from CA to DC to CA a whole whole whole lot.

[NuTcAsE]

Len is too good of a guy to stop anyone from expressing their opinion, even if the opinion comes in the form of a harsh remark aimed squarely at him. That's one of the reasons I respect him as much as I do and why he's a moderator here on TGO.

That said, let's get back to arguing. But do it nicely.

I believe that.

Len, After thinkin again, my apologies. I know you're probably as sick of Republicans as we are of Democrats, fair enough. The comments of Governor Palin's daughter surprised me.

[Smith]

Pelosi and she was flying her family from CA to DC to CA a whole whole whole lot.

Not to mention it was the Air Force that she was demanding to fly her at their expense. But then again she has the D by her name. It gets old trying to factually context the hypocrisy.

[Guest grimel]

Sure, I'd like Obama to be a stronger advocate for the 2A, but the reality is that there is such a mess to be cleaned up in DC

You think Obama is the solution? A CHICAGO Democrat? Do you have any ideas how Obama made it to DC?

6) I have been accused on throwing non-factual information up on this forum, been accused of hypocrisy, of making baseless allegations, etc.

So, you think you can poke a hole in the allegations? This should be great.

Let's see what I've had to read about on this forum regarding Obama:

a) That he's buddies with a terrorist. Hmm, he met the guy a couple of times DECADES after his domestic terrorism conviction. Dang, we can't find Bin Laden, might as well hang Obama!

Oh, sorry, I guess you don't think it's a big deal on or about 9/12/2001 Ayers was standing on the US flag while telling the reporter his only regret was he didn't set enough bombs.

Palin has more experience than Obama. Yeah, right. Let's see Obama was a community organizer (a good thing, by the way), a law professor, a state senator, and a US Senator. (Both of his Senate districts served a population greater than all of Alaska.) Palin ran a town of 6500 people and then one of the smallest states population-wise for less than 2 years. Obama went to Harvard and edited the Law Review there. Palin bounced around 5 colleges before getting that BA.

As for the last sentence, education doesn't count as experience, but, when have the dems let facts matter:

Obama - more "present" votes than anyone - Mayors and Governors have to MAKE a decision, not position themself for their next run at office.

Community organizer (not a good thing BTW) isn't experience. He did exactly nothing and solved exactly zero problems. His State and Federal Senate time has been spent doing exactly nothing - no significant (or problem solving) legislation authored. Gov Palin RAN the town and is running the State. During this time she managed to negotiate a NG pipeline crossing AK and Canada (last I checked still a foreign country and thus, yet again, more experience) which cost the AK and US taxpayers ZERO dollars (privately funded). Oh, she cut the AK Gov office expenditures while your Obama is looking to EXPAND government intervention.

c) ACORN is evil. ACORN has a long-term record (38 years) of registering and empowering poor/disadvantaged people. How is this bad?

Oh, I'd say Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae qualify as bad. If you don't know how that is related, spend more time researching and less time supporting socialist groups.

d) Obama is a socialist. Please. First look at his record. Then read what socialism is. Then compare the two. He's a Democrat, not a socialist. The "spread it around" comment stoked some fire within the GOP -the same GOP that helped create the current tax system -a system that existed before Obama was a Senator- that in essence causes the top 5% of earners to pay about 50% of the taxes in this country. Spreading it around? Sounds to me like we've been doing this ever since the progressive income tax was instituted -decades before Obama was even born. If support for a progressive income tax makes one socialist, then count all the Republicans, Democrats and others over the decades that supported it as socialist as well.

I guess the GOP trying to reduce the top tax brackets (and then being accused of screwing the little guy and helping the rich - class warfare directly from Karl Marx) is supporting the Progressive Income Tax. It's the Democrats who are constantly trying to RAISE the top bracket and put in more and more brackets.

Obama is wanting to EXPAND government by roughly 1 trillion. Obama is wanting to give $70,000,000,000 for world wide welfare. I guess the several trillion transfered from the US producers and giving it to the US non-producers isn't enough; now, lets give it to the world.

Obama is for more government control and regulation of business.

Oh, Len, you are right. Obama isn't a Socialist; he's a National Socialist, A.K.A. Facist.

If John McCain wins in 12 days, life will go on. Things, in fact, will likely be better than they are now. (How could they be worse.)

Well, considering Barney Frank just this week said the stockmarket has good fundamentals just a bad psychology (which I believe is an almost direct quote of John McCain just he was ridiculed for saying it). I guess the constant barage by the Democrats finally managed to bring down the economy. Oh, lets not forget the economy was rolling along just fine (again regardless of what the media wanted to report) until after the Democrats took over the House and Senate.

If Obama wins, life will go on as well. And yes, things will likely be better. Obama/McCain to me boils down to what we need right now at this moment in our history. I think my reasons for supporting Obama are exactly the same as General Powell's -we are in need of a transformational leader at this moment. Gen. Powell knows a thing or two about leadership, so I am willing to stand in his company.

Just what has Obama done that makes you or anyone think he is a leader? What leadership experiance does he have?

If Obama does what he is claiming he will do (and he will most likely have the House and Senate support to do so) will be a disaster for this country. We already have historical records of what Obama's ideas will do (see Jimmy Carter).

I think we also like to remind this country that liberals are not bad, in fact quite the opposite. Nothing will help clean up the right-wing imposed tarnish on the reputation of liberals than a liberal in the highest office in the land. When that happens, and then the sky does not fall down, I think the country will be a better place.

Every time an unabashed liberal has been POTUS with working control of Congress we the people have been screwed (see FDR, LBJ, and Jimmy Carter).

The only tarnish on Liberals is caused by Liberals. Nothing like calling people bitter clingers, nothing like jumping to attack anyone questioning the Messiah while ignoring the Messiah's background. Nothing like calling your constituants racist rednecks. Well, you get the idea.

[strickj]

What ever happened to people coming

together and hating all politicians together.....in peace ....... and harmony...

[Guest Honest AK]

you might want to check your own posts. My posts have not questioned you personally..simply your statements...they don't add up.

I won't condemn you for supporting the Democratic party...heck, that's what America is all about! different viewpoints are often a great way to check your own though process.

What makes me doubt your veracity is your statements that you dislike BOTH parties, yet you seem to criticize only one.

Len is a great guy. he is, by my standards, liberal. I have no problem with that. He doesn't equivocate. he has no need to. He makes some GREAT points when it comes to Tn. state laws and firearm ownership. I'm proud to know him.

what I can't abide is dishonesty and it seems to me that you're not being honest with the rest of us when you say that you dislike both parties, yet you only criticize one. No where in any of my posts have I made any remarks concerning your family. I have only asked that YOU personally explain your views.

I and others have posted facts about Obama and the Democratic party. I have yet to see any links to, or accurate information that refutes the information that I've presented. the only thing I see is "well..I'm not attacking them but that's propoganda put out by a bias source." even though the links have gone back to a paper trail of what actually happened, or you say "well those dirty capitolists have done this!!!" and attempted to get away from refuting the information.

Now I know I'm not the most eloquent speaker. I know I can incite folks to anger. for that I apologize. If you're being disengenuous then it will come out and we'll be well shut of you. If you're being sincere then I believe you have THE most interesting view of modern politics that I've ever seen.

Many folks here on this forum have met me. They know me. I speak my mind..and there's nothing wrong with that. sometimes we disagree...but I don't believe that any of them that met me would ever think I would take liberties of speaking like that of their family. I try to be generous and sometimes to a fault. I work very hard for what I earn and since you don't know..my family works harder than I do. To cast aspersions on them when you don't know them is an insult...and not one I'm willing to let slip past.

as for threats of violence,that's not a threat...that is exactly what would happen. Perhaps you didn't learn manners but that's no excuse. We don't do that sort of thing down here, politics or no.

I guess I could chime in with a "+1" every time a Democrat gets criticized but I don't bother with it. Seems to me like that sort of viewpoint is pretty well covered here.

I do remember criticizing the Democrats for their anti gun stance and that was the reason why I couldn't seriously consider voting for them. If that's not enough to convince you that I'm not a Democrat, I don't know what else I could say. In the end, I really don't give a **** what you think but it's hard to have a discussion when the only replies I get are "you're a liar!".

As for the remarks I made about your family, I offer a sincere apology. In a way, I feel sorry for them because of the fact they are stuck with you.

Before leaving, I'd like to thank everyone here for sharing their expertise on guns and politics. I learned a lot about my fellow Tennesseans here and some of it is pretty disturbing.

The mods can close out my account or whatever. I won't be back. Good luck to you all.

[Almond27]

[towerclimber37]

LOL!!!!

Don't go on account of me AK...just click Ignore. I'm sure there are many other folks on here that are more gullible...errr willing to listen to your position.

I can click ignore and you do the same and we'll just go about our business like that.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

one things for sure, Len... you really know how to start a shiet storm. One thing I will say, when the Obamanation/Revolution comes... I want you on my side, but you will have to ditch those liberal leaning tendencies. :-)