Question Regarding a Possible Situation

[101]

Ok, here's the story.

 

Friday night high school football game, son is in the band.  The family comes to watch him perform.   The wife, daughter (<2 years old) and me arrive late because of work schedule.  The parking lot is packed and we park, gather our things and proceed through the parking lot to the stadium.  Obviously, I have secured my usual choice of defense and went with the trusty fists and flashlight.  

 

While walking through the dimly lit parking lot a car approaches us at an alarmingly high rate of speed (easily close to if not more than 30 mph) for a congested area.  The wife grabs the daughter, I'm trying to get my flashlight out of my pocket to let said car know we are there but my hands are full of cameras and diaper bags.  As she passes us, I loudly state "slow down" as I notice her window was down.  She yells at me to "watch my mouth!" (??)  So I reply much more loudly and much more sternly "SLOW DOWN!!"  She continues to speed off and yell something back I can't understand.  Three other people witness this all and comment on her being an idiot for going that fast in a school parking lot.

 

The family and I arrive at the gate and pay to go inside and as soon as I turn away from the table with the tickets, there is a slightly taller and much more bulkier kid (?) standing almost on top of me.  I stop and look at him as he asks in a slow, menacing tone "did you just yell at someone in the parking lot?".  Immediately I go into condition red and size this fellow up.  I assumed battle stance and cleared my right arm and reply "yes".  He asks "did you call her a bit*h?".  By now I'm ready to throat punch this cat and drop him as hard and fast as I can because he had a friend behind him and my family was behind me.  I reply to him and say "no, I told her to slow down, she was going way to fast around all these people through the parking lot".  He says "you didn't call her a bit*h?"  I said "no, I told her to slow down".  I'm thinking at this point that this is going to go hands on and I'm ready to ruin this kids voice and he starts to walk away and says "better not have".  

 

So, situation diverted.  Question number one.  If he was going to go to the next, obvious step and I read his cues and used force first, fast and thoroughly, would I be in trouble?  I decided long ago that if ever faced with a problem such as this, I was going all in, all at once and not going to wait for someone else to wound me or use violence on me first specially when he has back up.  I was fearing for myself and my family at that very second and as long as I am breathing I was not going to allow anyone to get near them.

 

Who ever was in that car must have called this kid (?) and he was waiting for me, which would mean premeditated action to confront me on his part.  I was also wearing a pretty loud shirt that was easily recognizable.  So I was easy to find.

 

Also, being school grounds I was rosco-less but I might have or might not have had access to an alternative means of protection.  Would I also be in trouble if this went down and he and his friend bested me first and I was to deploy said means, if I had or had not had access to?

 

Sorry for writing a book, but this really got me thinking.  I spend so much time learning, training and researching situations involving firearms, that I was not prepared for a hands on situation in the ONLY possible place and time I would be without my firearm, a school.

 

The only thing I was mentally prepared to do was be the first to lay hands and not stop until he was out of commission.  I'm not sure that would have been enough, or if that would have been a good thing at all.

 

 

[wileecoyote]

1 - shouting at or verbally arguing with a reckless driver isn't going to change their behavior one bit. Might make you feel better but it can only lead to trouble. If the situation was truly dangerous and you or others narrowly escaped serious harm, you should have just called the police. And especially because there's always some police present at every high school football game.

2 - squaring off and proceeding to verbally argue or debate with one or more adversarial strangers, kids or otherwise, is just as wrong and pointless as #1. You just ignore them and walk away, avoiding the altercation, and only escalate to self defense if you are pursued to the point of having no practical way out or if the pursuers place you or your loved ones in fear of imminent bodily harm or death.

If it were me I would have shook my head silently at the unsafe driver, saying nothing, or at most reporting it to local police or security. And if confronted by someone later I'd just dismiss them as unimportant and walk away. Life's too short and my desire to enjoy the game safely with my family and avoid any physical or legal trouble would far outweigh any desire to confront or scold bad drivers and overzealous defenders.

Probably not what you wanted to hear but that's my $0.02.

[Ugly]

I think letting someone know they're driving too fast is the right thing to do. While they may be one of those types that are always in a hurry, it was in a parking lot with people walking through it. What if you didn't say anything and next thing you know this clown hits a kid walking through.

Some people just want trouble, no matter how idiotic it is.

I think your actions were spot on, even if the kid made the move, you had an effective plan which might have ended the situation. Life lessons come by for some the hard way, his buddy might have rethought his next move as soon as the big guy was down.

Glad it turned out with no violence!

[leroy]

Some sage words from my long gone over the sunset hill irish granny....

 

".... Foolish people do foolish things...".  Don't be drawn down to their level, no matter the provocation (...the bad drivin phillistine harlot...)... I never engage in shouting matches with anyone except my dear wife; and i usually loose them...

 

Don't banter words with a fool (... the kid...); calmly tell him to get out of your face and walk away... Don't let your kids see you turn from their dad  whom they love dearly to a hoodlum (...as defined by society, and not necessarily right...) over some "in a hurry" b**ch and a foolish bratty kid... I bet everyone would calm down if ya called for the local security officer....

 

leroy

Edited October 11, 2014 by leroy

[101]

I understand and realize the best course of action would have been to mind my own business but....I'm done with minding my own business.  If you're acting a fool and being stupid and it is affecting me, I'm going to call you out on it.

 

I firmly believe that stupidity and foolishness is becoming so common place in society because society stands by idly and watches from the side lines.  Is it my place to do so, probably not.  I believe it's all of our place to do so.

 

Think of this.  You're at he the hockey game.  Fellow spectator is yelling and screaming profanities at every play and person he sees.  You can tell everyone is annoyed to no end.  Security isn't doing anything about it.  So one guy in the crowd stands up and tells this guy to tone it down and keep it civil.  Everyone cheers this guy for doing so because he just did what everyone else was wanting to do but didn't have the guts to do.  

 

If no one stands up to idiots when they are doing something that is detrimental to others around them, then who will?  The cops?  No offense but how reliable are they and where are they when you truly need one.  Society needs to police its own when it's something that can be handled without police intervention.  So many people rely on the cops to save them when all they need to do is start standing up for what they know is right.  

 

Idiots prevail because good men no longer call them stupid.

Edited October 11, 2014 by 101

[DaveTN]

I know you want to hear that you would be justified in protecting yourself, and if that were the case you would be.

However, when I responded to these types of situations I needed to determine was this mutual combat or an attack. To do that I had to talk with both people involved and the witnesses. What would the witnesses have seen? You throwing the first punch?

Your situation is like a rage road incident; two willing participants. Chances are good one or both of you would have been arrested, had you pulled a gun or some other type weapon you almost certainly would have been arrested. You would have then let you attorney make your case to the DA or in court.

At a high school football game or a Hockey game Police actions will be swift to remove the drama. There won’t be a lot of standing around and interviewing people unless a weapon is pulled or someone is seriously injured.

I would have ignored him and walked away. If he attacked me I would have had to deal with that.
 

I understand and realize the best course of action would have been to mind my own business but....I'm done with minding my own business. If you're acting a fool and being stupid and it is affecting me, I'm going to call you out on it.

You have a responsibility to take care of your family. Going to jail or spending your family’s money on lawyers is not in the best interest of the people who depend on you. Edited October 11, 2014 by DaveTN

[owejia]

Sounds like you did the right thing. Some times you have to stand up to bullies!

[101]

I know you want to hear that you would be justified in protecting yourself, and if that were the case you would be.

However, when I responded to these types of situations I needed to determine was this mutual combat or an attack. To do that I had to talk with both people involved and the witnesses. What would the witnesses have seen? You throwing the first punch?

Your situation is like a rage road incident; two willing participants. Chances are good one or both of you would have been arrested, had you pulled a gun or some other type weapon you almost certainly would have been arrested. You would have then let you attorney make your case to the DA or in court.

At a high school football game or a Hockey game Police actions will be swift to remove the drama. There won’t be a lot of standing around and interviewing people unless a weapon is pulled or someone is seriously injured.

I would have ignored him and walked away. If he attacked me I would have had to deal with that.
 
You have a responsibility to take care of your family. Going to jail or spending your family’s money on lawyers is not in the best interest of the people who depend on you.

 

Not looking for justification.  I was looking for answers on what would be the best course of action for the senario that unfolded.  You have provided the best explanation thus far.  

[Ski]

I appreciate your desire to make a positive difference in society, but I think you'd be better off channeling that into building relationships with kids from broken homes through something like Big Brothers Big Sisters or a faith based mentoring effort. Shouting at a stranger that is acting foolishly isn't likely to make anyone act better unless you're also intimidating them in some way. I think the way you handled the confrontation was wise. A gentle word turns away wrath. That obviously worked in this instance. I think walking away without answering would have likely escalated the situation. The bully would likely have interpreted that as a sign of disrespect.

[R_Bert]

Not looking for justification.  I was looking for answers on what would be the best course of action for the senario that unfolded.  You have provided the best explanation thus far.  

best course of action...if you hold traits of being easily offended (and I am not sure from comments above.....but it leans to offended...) - then stay home and listen to the game on the radio.

[Westwindmike]

What if the speeding car had stopped and 4 big guys had jumped out and kicked your ass? Yelling at the car did nothing but escalate the situation.

[cthruit]

I understand all the above viewpoints.  I truly do.  I also have come to realize that we are at this point in our cultural devolution because backbone is being bred out of us.  If you're a kid and a bully kicks you around any retaliation gets you kicked out of school, put in the legal system and on psych meds.   People no longer want to be involved in standing up for anyone - including themselves or family.  It's just not worth the hassle.  Give this one more generation, and we're unable to stand against, well, anything.

 

No, I don't want to be led off in cuffs to let a disinterested judge sort things out.  I don't have anger issues or go around looking for trouble.  But we need to question what living in a world where we're scared to interact with someone when there's something wrong for fear we'll "get in trouble."

 

Don't get me started on how some LE agencies and courts handle situations like the OP's story.

[BigK]

What if the speeding car had stopped and 4 big guys had jumped out and kicked your ass? Yelling at the car did nothing but escalate the situation.

I witnessed almost that exact thing happen once. Reckless car startles black pedestrian, pedestrian shouts something, car stops, white guy the size of an NFL linebacker climbs out of car, startled pedestrian almost laid an egg when he saw the size of this guy. I caught up with the pedestrian, asked if he was okay, he turned to me pale as a ghost and says, damn that was close. I said yeah, he almost ran over you. He laughed nervously and said, that might have been better for my health than the alternative.

[TMF]

It is a sad state that our society finds it more acceptable for someone to behave in an unsafe manner than a person who tells them to stop behaving in an unsafe manner.

Folks wonder why there are so many people who act with zero regard for others. The reason is no one has ever told them they are wrong. Good people have no backbone nowadays, and the few that do are chastised for being hotheads; as if they are the problem.




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[QuietDan]

A small suggestion: At the beginning of the engagement with the young menace, turn calmly to your spouse and say in a calm, firm. loud voice: "Honey, bring a Police Officer over here." That sets a clock ticking in the bully's mind that whatever he plans on doing will be shortly observed by the law, as well as by all the law abiding folks around you, and warns those around you that an incident is forming. It also gets your spouse out of the immediate vicinity. On your part, no shouting, no profanity, no verbal or physical violence. I personally wouldn't spend a lot of time restating what you previously said or get down to cases. "Anything I have to say to you can wait until the police officer arrives" is probably enough. The bully will realize that all those around the two of you are now witnesses to his next actions. If he has any sense, his physical bulk over you has been disarmed. If he has no sense, there will be plenty of witnesses that he was the aggressor, and probably one or two assistants if he needs to be restrained. When the Police Officer arrives, be the calm adult, stick to the facts, address the Police Officer as "Officer" and things will pretty much go your way. If the bully gets loud and physical, you win. If the bully pleads his case, the facts are on your side and you win.

 

I have applied this technique in a couple of other similar cases. On a shopping trip to a big box store, my wife let me out of the Cherokee in front of the store, as my 80 year old father was with us and I was getting his walker out of the tailgate. A Nazi-helmeted biker, roaring and racing through the parking lot, felt that he was cut off by my wife's maneuver, revved his engine loud in disapproval, earned a highly disapproving look from me, pulled up in front of the car and prepared to dismount his hog to exchange a few menacing words. There was a limit to what I could do as I was disadvantaged by the presence of my family and considerations for their safety. Though I was concealed carrying, there was no need to touch the pistol. All I said was, "You are about that far (thumb and forefinger pinch gesture) from having Law Enforcement called on you." Full leathered, mustachioed fat bellied biker dude with an attitude versus a law abiding citizen with his wife and aging father in a walker? It's a non-starter for him in the eyes of the Law. He had already lost. He cursed, gestured, and resumed his irresponsible ride.

 

By the way, while out and around with my wife and an incident begins to develop, I will tell her "Keep Walking" which is Code for "get away from here quickly, call the police immediately, and report everything that's happening."

Edited October 12, 2014 by QuietDan

[TGO David]

It is a sad state that our society finds it more acceptable for someone to behave in an unsafe manner than a person who tells them to stop behaving in an unsafe manner.

Folks wonder why there are so many people who act with zero regard for others. The reason is no one has ever told them they are wrong. Good people have no backbone nowadays, and the few that do are chastised for being hotheads; as if they are the problem.




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I'm in agreement with TMF's post and likely would have done the same thing as the OP.  Call me a hot-head if you want, but society has gotten to where it is because good people have been told not to turn the other cheek, but to cower in fear of society's turds, savages and primates.

[peejman]

Yep. I would have yelled at the idiot too. When her boy asked me if I called her a bitch, I would have said... No. Why, is she one?

I'm not a very big person, but I won't be intimidated by some mindless punk. Turn the tables on them and they'll back off.

[Dennis1209]

Another way to look at it...

 

A gun, a sledge hammer, a knife, a car is a tool and never hurt anyone without an outside force acting upon them. When a careless person operates them with abandon they are deadly weapons that will maim and kill. What's the difference between an errant bullet and an errant driver? One might be 230 grains and the other two tons and more. What's the difference between 230 grains and two tons just missing you in a parking lot as far as your health and welfare go? They are both a deadly force.

 

If that 230 grain projectile carelessly passes you are you going to yell slow down partner or get out of the way and call the cops. What about the two ton projectile? It's my experience you can't reason, determine intent or change the behavior of either.

 

Just sayen...

[DaveTN]

Another way to look at it...
 
A gun, a sledge hammer, a knife, a car is a tool and never hurt anyone without an outside force acting upon them. When a careless person operates them with abandon they are deadly weapons that will maim and kill. What's the difference between an errant bullet and an errant driver? One might be 230 grains and the other two tons and more. What's the difference between 230 grains and two tons just missing you in a parking lot as far as your health and welfare go? They are both a deadly force.
 
If that 230 grain projectile carelessly passes you are you going to yell slow down partner or get out of the way and call the cops. What about the two ton projectile? It's my experience you can't reason, determine intent or change the behavior of either.
 
Just sayen...

You would think that a car putting people in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm would justify the use of deadly force; but it doesn’t unless it has a specific target. Cops should be able to kill fleeing drivers but they can’t. Two middle Tennessee LEO’s and countless innocent people have lost their lives because of that.

[Ski]

Cops should be able to kill fleeing drivers but they can’t.

What?

Edited for stray characters... Edited October 12, 2014 by Ski

[Will Carry]

You did the right thing. Avoid a fight if you can. Even if it hurts your pride.

 

Throat punch?  Have you had any martial arts training? In Tae Kwon Do there are several moves that attack the throat. They are considered deadly strikes. I have only used my martial arts training once to defend myself. I was attacked in a parking lot, on Lower Broadway, by a man who was drunk and on drugs of some kind. I quick snap kick to the groin left him rolling in the gutter. I have also been badly beaten by a little guy who was a boxer. I was a 6' 2" at 210lb black belt and we was 5' 2" and 150lbs golden gloves boxer. He beat me so badly that to this day, I'm afraid of little dudes.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Will Carry

[McGarrett]

I had a similar situation happen last winter at a local gas station but I was by myself. While pumping gas some redneck guys came flying into the gas station spinning tires and their truck got sideways and they lost control and spun almost completely around coming within inches of my truck and another vehicle near me.

 

I hollered at them and they acted all pissed off and stopped and the passenger got out of the truck. I just told them in as calm of voice as i could that if they want to kill or disable themselves or destroy their truck they should do it where nobody is around. They just got back in the truck and left. The guys in the other vehicle said i shouldn't let things get to me like that.

[m16ty]

I've only been in two real fist fights my whole life. Both times I threw the first punch but I didn't start the fight.

 

If I get backed in a corner and I don't see a exit without going through you, I'm not going to hang around for you to hit me before I defend myself. Both of the fights above happened when I was younger and it was a time when you just took your whipping and went home so no cops were involved. I don't know what the law would say but I think it would be akin to having to be shot (or at least shot at) before returning fire with a gun.

[KKing]

I'm the guy that, like the OP, would have said something to the driver. I am very protective of my family. You might get close to me by myself and me keep my mouth shut, but not my wife. I don't have children, but I cannot imagine "letting it go" when someone drives a vehicle near enough to hit them. Hindsight is 20/20, and it's easy for us to sit and say what he could have done in this situation. Hell, we aren't the ones that nearly had our wife and child ran over. I try to avoid confrontation all costs, and I know they say "choose your battles", I just believe I would have said something to the driver just the same. I suppose I'm a hot head as well. Edited December 16, 2014 by KKing

[glowdotGlock]

I've not ever been in a real fist fight because when I was a kid I was a skinny little s##t. But now at 28 I am 6, 3" and 252 pounds and not all of it is fat. I often wonder how I would come out in a fight if I had to. When I was a reserve deputy I would "wrestle" and grapple with other deputies while doing some hand to hand training and my size gave me a great advantage. Hopefully I will never have to find out.