FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division

[Jonnin]

According to the logic expressed in this document the .22 would be better because you can have even more rounds in your magazine if you went rimless.

 

When it comes to the caliber wars my belief is: Who gives a $#&^ what someone else carries? It's their choice; not mine.

 

I totally believe that the 30 round 22 mag auto would be ideal for defense if it were reliable.  Of course you can have a long stick for a glock and have just as many in 9.  Its hard to go above 30 anyway, no matter how small the round the mags start acting up past some point, esp if you buy cheap.

[Omega]

Where did this “document” come from? It doesn’t read like an FBI document, has misspellings and is full of It reads like it was written by someone that desperately wants people to believe his 9mm is as good a weapon as their .40S&W’s.Sorry, dude you still have a 9mm; but maybe you can find someone to give you a hug. You guys know don’t you that you don’t need the approval of everyone else; the only people that matter are you and those you are protecting.

While I can't vouch for the validity of this particular report, I have read many which reach much the same conclusion. With modern ammunition, caliber is second to shot placement. Most decent SD centerfire handgun ammo has a negligible difference in penetration.

[SlapChopDonkey]

-still looking for the actual report Edited September 27, 2014 by SlapChopDonkey

[graycrait]

The best handgunner I have ever seen anywhere in my 23 yrs of military service including with some odd folks like the FFL, SAS, SF, and others, killed a murderer a couple of months ago while off duty with his agency approved G19.  He hated his issue 23, yet grew to admire the two SA 1911's Pro's he carries as an issue on duty weapon. I used to  hit the timer for him when he was speed shooting with his G19 while still in the Army.  The handgun caliber wars are just plain stupid. They are handguns, not shotguns or rifles.   Whenever I hear the phrase, "If it doesn't start with a 4....."  Frigging maroons, stuck back in the day when all anyone shot was ball ammo.   Why two 1911 SA Pros?  Cause one is always in the shop he says. He says they just don't hold up to the amount of training fire required to be competent combat handgun shooter. 

Edited September 27, 2014 by graycrait

[runco]

Great read, thanks for posting!

[Lumber_Jack]

So what exactly is a "premium Law Enforcement projectile"

I still can't buy the data that a modern 9mm creates an equal and undefinable wound tract between 9, .40, & .45.

Early in the article they mention rapid shot strings, less recoil, and LOWER COST. Which are much more reasonable reasons to choose the 9mm than saying its ballistics are equal to or better than all other calibers.

Physics still exists within the FBI test facility, right?

[Westwindmike]

And didn't the federal government just buy millions of rounds of .40?

[Omega]

So what exactly is a "premium Law Enforcement projectile"
I still can't buy the data that a modern 9mm creates an equal and undefinable wound tract between 9, .40, & .45.
Early in the article they mention rapid shot strings, less recoil, and LOWER COST. Which are much more reasonable reasons to choose the 9mm than saying its ballistics are equal to or better than all other calibers.
Physics still exists within the FBI test facility, right?

I thought the same thing back in the 90s, but there has been vast improvements in modern rounds and tests like this are hard to refute:

Edited September 27, 2014 by Omega

[Lumber_Jack]

I thought the same thing back in the 90s, but there has been vast improvements in modern rounds and tests like this are hard to refute:

Exactly. Look at the permanent wound cavity on all rounds .357 sig and bigger compared to 9mm. It's not all about penetration depth, and they even admit that in the article.

I feel 9mm is completely adequate for all intents and purposes. But I can't believe a bigger bullet moving faster (.45 exception) isn't going to perform better.

[dcloudy777]

I feel 9mm is completely adequate for all intents and purposes. But I can't believe a bigger bullet moving faster (.45 exception) isn't going to perform better.

 

Better?  Maybe.  Enough of an improvement to justify the decrease in capacity (or increase in weapon size) and slower follow-up shots?  Nope.

 

If you look at just a projectile... sure, the .45 is the one I'd rather have.  But we aren't throwing the things at bad guys.  These bullets are stuffed into cartridges which are stuffed into guns which are stuffed into hands that are attached to people.

 

Weapon selection should be looked at with a "total system" approach. 

[Lumber_Jack]

Better? Maybe. Enough of an improvement to justify the decrease in capacity (or increase in weapon size) and slower follow-up shots? Nope.

If you look at just a projectile... sure, the .45 is the one I'd rather have. But we aren't throwing the things at bad guys. These bullets are stuffed into cartridges which are stuffed into guns which are stuffed into hands that are attached to people.

Weapon selection should be looked at with a "total system" approach.

Kind of what I was eluding too. This has more to do with a "best for us" scenario than 9mm is the ultimate round.

[dcloudy777]

Kind of what I was eluding too. This has more to do with a "best for us" scenario than 9mm is the ultimate round.

 

Indeed.

 

Believe me, if somebody repeals the laws of physics and develops a .50AE pistol that holds as many rounds, is the same size, and is as easy to hit targets with as my SP-01, sign me up. :pleased:

[Patton]

Early in the article they mention rapid shot strings, less recoil, and LOWER COST. Which are much more reasonable reasons to choose the 9mm than saying its ballistics are equal to or better than all other calibers.

The FBI only authorizes duty ammo for training and the cost between the Ranger T's in 9mm and .40 is negligible. What they would save in year would probably be less than the coffee expenditures of one field office for a day.

The capacity argument seems worthy but these are not street cops who like to carry lots of ammo. They have the mentality of detectives and chiefs who carry what is comfortable and convenient. I heard when the memo came out that they had to carry a minimum of two magazines and 20 rounds they were walking around with two, ten round magazines. Previously they were loading their 9mm Sigs with a full magazine and walking around with a few loose rounds in their pocket to have the required 20 rounds. FBI Agents are smart but they are not gun smart. Edited September 28, 2014 by Patton

[McGarrett]

Although i think it's a good read, the report makes way too much sense to be from a gov agency. The wording is all wrong for gov reports. Just my 2 cents.

 

I will say I have been enjoying 9mm handguns more now that I have a G27 with 9mm conversion barrel and my newly acquired S&W 5906. I have traditionally carried .40 handguns but I feel confident that the 9mm can do the job just fine. The 5906 was bought mainly as a truck gun but I have been finding myself carrying it often.

 

During caliber debates I ponder this question; Is it possible for a certain caliber to cause you to be more dead? Put me down as not wanting to be shot by any of them.

Edited September 27, 2014 by McGarrett

[TNWNGR]

Much ado about nothing is my take on this whole mess and I've been reading this drivel since the late 1960's. In the end it comes down to training, common sense and street smarts because if you can't hit it than what difference does the round make?   

[Oh Shoot]

Where did this “document” come from? It doesn’t read like an FBI document, has misspellings and is full of

It reads like it was written by someone that desperately wants people to believe his 9mm is as good a weapon as their .40S&W’s.
Sorry, dude you still have a 9mm; but maybe you can find someone to give you a hug.

You guys know don’t you that you don’t need the approval of everyone else; the only people that matter are you and those you are protecting.

 

Just got around to reading thread, and high lighted portion was my first thought too.

 

And besides, all the 3 letter agencies just not long ago bought enough .40 HP to shoot everybody in the world ten times or whatever too, eh?

 

- OS

[hipower]

Much ado about nothing is my take on this whole mess and I've been reading this drivel since the late 1960's. In the end it comes down to training, common sense and street smarts because if you can't hit it than what difference does the round make?   

 

JMO, but...best post since the first.

[Patton]

Yes, it does not appear to be a true government document but even more alarming is that is not signed by someone with their whole biography. Unfortunately these guys normally want to remind you all the time of who they are and everything that they have done.

[Patton]

Just got around to reading thread, and high lighted portion was my first thought too.

And besides, all the 3 letter agencies just not long ago bought enough .40 HP to shoot everybody in the world ten times or whatever too, eh?

- OS

I know about the DHS but I never saw where the DOJ made large ammunition purchases. There is strong pressure from the secretary to make DHS .40 across the board.

[JohnC]

I guess this applies to the FN Five-seveN as well since it was designed as a 9mm replacement that can penetrate light body armor. :D

Edited September 28, 2014 by JohnC

[Oh Shoot]

I know about the DHS but I never saw where the DOJ made large ammunition purchases. There is strong pressure from the secretary to make DHS .40 across the board.

 

Everything I saw seemed to indicate that every agency under the federal sun scored, from frigging IRS to BLM to the Post Office, don't see why DOJ would have been left out!

 

- OS

Edited September 28, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Patton]

Everything I saw seemed to indicate that every agency under the federal sun scored, from frigging IRS to the Post Office, don't see why DOJ would have been left out.

- OS

I believe that you are right but I am almost positive that the IRS and PO carries and purchased .357 sig though.

[satalac]

Can you fire it quickly and accurately? Yes? Then shoot whatever it is you're shooting. A .45 kills. A .40 kills. A 9 mm kills.

[Steelharp]

And it continues... http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

[Oh Shoot]

And it continues... http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

 

Well, I guess 9mm will get scarce for a while once they place their orders for a few billion rounds, eh?

 

- OS