How bout them Secret Service guys???

[bersaguy]

Its a catch 22. Not matter how they handled the situation, it would have seen as a terrible way to handle it by one side. Thats what is happening. A nice and big schism dividing the country. Blame the president all you want, but he isnt the one sole responsible party for all these problems. Its everyone. 

Oh RC3, I am not blaming Obama for what is going on in the world.     .Most this mess goes a lot farther back than his Presidency...........a lot farther back................jmho

[Clod Stomper]

The guy was insight of agents, wasn’t armed, and was detained. He was not an immediate threat; had he became one I’m sure he would have been shot.

I’m also sure had he been shot on the lawn, the same people that question why he wasn’t shot would be calling him an overzealous citizen and calling for the agents head.

 

Yeesh.  That's the second time today that I agree with you.

[bersaguy]

Yeesh.  That's the second time today that I agree with you.

Your gonna spoil him Clod and he will expect it more and more............................... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[RC3]

Oh RC3, I am not blaming Obama for what is going on in the world.     .Most this mess goes a lot farther back than his Presidency...........a lot farther back................jmho

Never said you did, but they are lurking out there. 

[Omega]

Never said you did, but they are lurking out there.

Well, you can count me in on that crowd. I still believe in "The Buck Stops Here" mentality no matter who is in office. That is whats wrong with people, politicians especially, nowadays; nobody wants to except responsibility. One can't expect him to personally oversee every aspect of his administration, but his policies should be clear and concise enough to have those in charge enact them properly. Securing the White House should be of the utmost importance and should have security good enough to keep unwanted guests from getting inside. I would not want to see a fellow military service member go down, but he should be well aware the risk he takes trying a stunt like this. Though I confess that the current administration has not earned my admiration, I respect the office enough to want to see it protected. Having said that, everyone makes mistakes but its how you fix those mistakes that define you.

[RC3]

Well, you can count me in on that crowd. I still believe in "The Buck Stops Here" mentality no matter who is in office. That is whats wrong with people, politicians especially, nowadays; nobody wants to except responsibility. One can't expect him to personally oversee every aspect of his administration, but his policies should be clear and concise enough to have those in charge enact them properly. Securing the White House should be of the utmost importance and should have security good enough to keep unwanted guests from getting inside. I would not want to see a fellow military service member go down, but he should be well aware the risk he takes trying a stunt like this. Though I confess that the current administration has not earned my admiration, I respect the office enough to want to see it protected. Having said that, everyone makes mistakes but its how you fix those mistakes that define you.

Let me ask you, what would you have done in such a situation? Im not defending the president, but think carefully. No matter what you say, there will be a counter to it. Thats what makes this incident such a pain. No matter what, someone is going to get up about it. Should things have been handled a little differently, sure. But the way to do it without causing a major incident is just like walking on a high rope. One wrong move and it all comes crashing down. 

[Omega]

Let me ask you, what would you have done in such a situation? Im not defending the president, but think carefully. No matter what you say, there will be a counter to it. Thats what makes this incident such a pain. No matter what, someone is going to get up about it. Should things have been handled a little differently, sure. But the way to do it without causing a major incident is just like walking on a high rope. One wrong move and it all comes crashing down.

It starts with a security plan and set SOPs for when to escalate the response. I think they should of had a dog team, which should always be available, take him down before he got into the building. Have non-lethal methods available such as tazers and sound wave cannons to deter mentally challenged individuals from gaining entry into the fenced in areas. Electrify, think cattle fence, the top portion of the fence etc, etc. I realize this is nothing more than hind sight but we are talking of the White House and we have had these occurances in the past so it should be no surprise that there are crazies out there. In these times, it should even be more important than ever before due to these ISIS/L crazies who would like nothing more than to have an attack on such an important political target. And personally, I doubt he gives a dang what we the people think of what he does. Otherwise he would be listening more to the other side, Repubs should too, and do what they were hired for.

[TMF]

It starts with a security plan and set SOPs for when to escalate the response. I think they should of had a dog team, which should always be available, take him down before he got into the building.

 

They did, and they released the dogs.  Problem is, taking a dog from just hanging out to chasing someone down for the bite isn't an instantaneous action like pulling the trigger.  The reason that it works for LE and Military is because there are preparatory events which cue the dog into drive.  You can't just have a dog on a spring, waiting for a bite all day long.  Doesn't work that way.

[Omega]

They did, and they released the dogs.  Problem is, taking a dog from just hanging out to chasing someone down for the bite isn't an instantaneous action like pulling the trigger.  The reason that it works for LE and Military is because there are preparatory events which cue the dog into drive.  You can't just have a dog on a spring, waiting for a bite all day long.  Doesn't work that way.

Again, this is the White House! If LE and Mil can have dogs ready, why can't they? Bottom line is they seem to of been caught with their pants down, and I hope it gets rectified before some underwear bomber gets in next time.

[nightrunner]

Again, this is the White House! If LE and Mil can have dogs ready, why can't they? Bottom line is they seem to of been caught with their pants down, and I hope it gets rectified before some underwear bomber gets in next time.

It doesn't matter if its the white house or the black house, it just doesn't work that way. Try holding a bow with a 100lb draw at full draw 24hrs straight. Its like that

[TMF]

Again, this is the White House! If LE and Mil can have dogs ready, why can't they? Bottom line is they seem to of been caught with their pants down, and I hope it gets rectified before some underwear bomber gets in next time.

 

No, you missed what I was saying.  That's not how dogs work.  You can't just have them (any trained dog) in drive and ready to strike at all times.  They require preparatory stimuli before they're in bite mode.  LE dogs are already in that mode when they're with the handler chasing a perp.  Hell, many of them are in that mode when the door is opened, because they've been trained that way.  A dog on patrol of the White House grounds isn't and can't be perpetually in drive.  Then you have the issue of target lock.  The dog has to know who it is attacking.  By the time the dog is put into drive and has target lock, enough time will have passed that a person could reach the White House doors. 

 

You have to understand how things work before suggesting solutions to the problem.  Some very smart and capable people spend a lot of time coming up with SOPs to fit all the scenarios they can imagine. 

[Omega]

No, you missed what I was saying.  That's not how dogs work.  You can't just have them (any trained dog) in drive and ready to strike at all times.  They require preparatory stimuli before they're in bite mode.  LE dogs are already in that mode when they're with the handler chasing a perp.  Hell, many of them are in that mode when the door is opened, because they've been trained that way.  A dog on patrol of the White House grounds isn't and can't be perpetually in drive.  Then you have the issue of target lock.  The dog has to know who it is attacking.  By the time the dog is put into drive and has target lock, enough time will have passed that a person could reach the White House doors. 

 

You have to understand how things work before suggesting solutions to the problem.  Some very smart and capable people spend a lot of time coming up with SOPs to fit all the scenarios they can imagine. 

No, I get you and I know exactly how dogs work I had the pleasure of wearing a bite suit and seeing and feeling up close and personal what it takes to get them to take someone down. I have seen many military service dogs on duty, both here in the US and overseas, though I am not privy to what they go through beforehand I can tell you that they go from relaxed to attack mode with no more than a command. I have seen a dog take down a perp through a crowd and the K9 was smart enough to get the perp without disturbing any bystanders.  If LE K9 patrol units can get their dogs into bite mode, then the Secret Service can get theirs into bite mode they have the same dogs, and same training available.  They have more resources than most LE does, if they wanted to they could have enough K9 teams to have a couple or a few on patrol (and properly stimulated) while others are at rest, in shifts like their human handlers.  

But like I have stated, this is with 20/20 hindsight so hopefully going forward they put in place something to prevent further events like this and the others that have transpired recently. 

[Omega]

It doesn't matter if its the white house or the black house, it just doesn't work that way. Try holding a bow with a 100lb draw at full draw 24hrs straight. Its like that

If you have the need to hold a bow for that long, you buy a crossbow.  If the K9 units could not go from relaxed in a vehicle to chase/bite mode then LE would not rely on them as much as they do..just saying.

 

Any K9 officers here?  I am sure you guys can shed some light on this subject.

[TMF]

No, I get you and I know exactly how dogs work I had the pleasure of wearing a bite suit and seeing and feeling up close and personal what it takes to get them to take someone down. I have seen many military service dogs on duty, both here in the US and overseas, though I am not privy to what they go through beforehand I can tell you that they go from relaxed to attack mode with no more than a command. I have seen a dog take down a perp through a crowd and the K9 was smart enough to get the perp without disturbing any bystanders.  If LE K9 patrol units can get their dogs into bite mode, then the Secret Service can get theirs into bite mode they have the same dogs, and same training available.  They have more resources than most LE does, if they wanted to they could have enough K9 teams to have a couple or a few on patrol (and properly stimulated) while others are at rest, in shifts like their human handlers.  

But like I have stated, this is with 20/20 hindsight so hopefully going forward they put in place something to prevent further events like this and the others that have transpired recently. 

 

The only way they would be able to have a dog that could be out like a shot would be to have at least one dedicated dog in a kennel overlooking the open area, and is trained to go into bite mode out of the gate.  All that is possible, but not practical.  They would be doing that for the sole purpose of stopping a runner on that portion of the lawn.  There are better ways to mitigate that without taking a handler and a dog out of the patrol.

 

You missed what I wrote earlier.  The reason LE and Military K9s are in "bite mode" when they go is because they've experienced a series of preparatory cues before they go.  For military dogs, they're either at a breach point, in a gun fight, search for man or leading the assault force (these are just a few examples).  Police dogs have similar preparatory stimuli which get them in mode, such as a car chase, being released during H2H and search for man (to name a few).  This has to do with the mentality of the animal at the time and the stimuli which brought them into that mentality.  A patrol dog isn't just going to suddenly take a command to "pocken/stellen/sick balls" when it's just walking around with daddy.  I could go up to my attack dog while we're just playing around in a park and give her a bite command suddenly and she'd look at me like I had a penis growing out of my forehead; and my dog has actually eaten a few people.  In order to get them into bite mode they need preparatory commands or stimuli, and they need target lock.  You know how hard it is to get a dog to have target lock on something several hundred yards away, with dozens of other people around?

[RC3]

I just think he should have been detained before coming close to the front door. A dog would probably have been a bad option.

[bersaguy]

I will say once more and then I am done with it. The Guy should have never made it up to and able to open an unlocked door of the White House period. Pi$$ pour decision and someone or a lot of some ones dropped the Security Ball................JMHO!!!  This one was almost as bad as the couple that walked right through security and crashed the party in the White House or the fact that our country was under attack by big aircraft in 2001 and they sent up unarmed Fighters to intercept them. And they have the nerve to tell the American people that we have nothing to fear because our Country is very secure. Facts and actions prove different !!!! The only thing really keeping this country safe is people like the folks right here and that has been proven by many foreign leaders all the way back to December 8th 1941. The day after Pearl Harbor when the Admiral of the Japanese fleet was asked why they didn't go and attack the American homeland and the admirals reply was "Because behind every blade of grass in America is an American with a gun and we would be defeated."

                                                        "I rest my case"

                                                             JMHO

Edited September 25, 2014 by bersaguy

[battleop]

I don't get why everyone is so upset over this especially the anti-Obama crowd.  I would think that if you were anti-Obama this kind of stuff wouldn't bother you.  

[btq96r]

So, this guy made it further into the White House than was first reported.  Like into the "As Seen On TV" East Room further.  I can't imagine how many levels of failure there were in this. 

 

I'd like to say the Secret Service should have the authority to use lethal force at their own discretion, but this incident has me wondering if they could make a good shoot/no-shoot decision on the fly like that.

[Sam1]

So, this guy made it further into the White House than was first reported.  Like into the "As Seen On TV" East Room further.  I can't imagine how many levels of failure there were in this. 

 

I'd like to say the Secret Service should have the authority to use lethal force at their own discretion, but this incident has me wondering if they could make a good shoot/no-shoot decision on the fly like that.

 

 

Just read that and came in here to post.  The incompetence is oozing out of every crack of the building... The fact that he got to the door is mistake #1, the fact he got inside is mistake #2 and the fact he made it more than one step inside without being turned into swiss cheese is just mind boggling to me, much less made it through multiple rooms and into the family's living quarters. 

 

Every security person working that day should already have a bunch of free time to start looking for a new career.

[bersaguy]

Not gonna gloat but Heads are gonna roll before this is over. I don't think the other day when Obama said he felt totally safe with his security force that he was told the truth about how far the guy made it into the house but actually into the living quarters. I think now that he knows the whole story his idea that he trusted his Security may be changing. 

 

And to battleop: I don't have to support the man elected to the office of the President of the United States to have total and complete respect for the office itself. If I was on his Secret Service staff and it came to taking one or more bullets to protect him or any member of his family you can bet i would take the bullets if it kept him or the family member from being harmed.  I would not be protecting Mr Obama or just a person in a family. I would be protecting the President of the United States or a member of the First Family.

 

Maybe your the one who does not understand and cannot separate the man from the office.................jmho

[Peace]

"and gals"... -Head of S.S. has to go.  This is a failure of epic proportions.  No matter what his/her name is, the existance of a sitting President of the United States is a treasure of the people of this free nation.  To have the "castle" of the president so easily breached is unforgiveable.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Peace

[Hershmeister]

Do they not have a guy at the freaking door?

[rugerla1]

Do they not have a guy at the freaking door?

Yeah, the intruder! But seriously, I can't believe the door was unguarded either. 

[Trekbike]

But seriously, I can't believe the door was unguarded either.

Or locked for that matter...

[Sam1]

Or locked for that matter...

Or the alarm disabled at the request of a servant