Local High School Attacked for Prayers

[Hershmeister]

Looks like something that's right up your alley.

Ok - how about this one instead:

[Moped]

I don't know about you all, but if the principal came to me and suggested I do something, I would take it to mean that's what I must do.  Just like if my boss came to me and said, I'd like you to work overtime on a project.  To me, he is just telling me in a nice way, that I must work overtime. From what I've read here, the Principal was in the wrong, and as a representative of the Government (in this case the School System), so was the School System.

 

Had a parent gone to the cheerleaders and suggested it, then there is no problem here.  Nor would there have been a problem with the cheerleaders themselves getting together and coming up with it.  That's a student led prayer and protected.  But that's not what I have read.

[gregintenn]

typical response.  Do it our way or stay home.

Isn't that the ACLU's stance? It sort of sounds like yous as well.

[gregintenn]

Clearly you've never read the TN state constitution huh?

 

First, even if you were correct that the state constitution didn't have an establishment clause (it does)...  the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution which TN (kinda) ratified after the civil war binds the states to recognize all privileges or immunities under the federal constitution.

 

So while pre-civil war some states did have state religions...  all of that ended once the 14th Amendment was ratified (and in virtually all cases had ended before that).

 

BUT, TN does have a state constitution which prohibits the exact same...

 

Section 3 of the TN Constitution:

 

 

So, here we have a government school created by law that is giving preference to a specific religion and a specific mode of worship.  Clear a violation under the TN Constitution as well.

 

Please, if you're going to make an argument please have your facts straight.

That's the best argument I've read in this thread, but I still disagree with your premise.

 

The 14th amendment of the U.S. Constitution states:

 

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

I assume you are referring to section one. I see no encroachment of anyone's life, liberty, or property by having a prayer at a ball game.

 

As for the State of Tennessee Constitution, you are leaving out two words; "by law".

 

that no human authority can, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience; and that no preference shall ever be given, by law, to any religious establishment or mode of worship.

I find no evidence the principal of the school passed any law requiring prayer before a ball game.

[RED333]

I'll be praying for y'all!

Thank you brother, looks we need it bad, I know I do.

[luvmyberetta]

It's clear athiests can't truely discuss religion since they think it's the same thing as the Easter Bunny or a cartoon character in their minds. They clearly have the right to feel that way, but NOT to infringe on the rights of believers... just like another "anti" group we often tak about. The anti religious have an unexplainable fear of something they don't understand & want to get rid of it...just like another "anti" group we often talk about. See a pattern yet? The ACLU is completely wrong in trying to ban any & all forms of religious freedom because it strikes at the hearts of human nature. I know the principal personally & he's not a trouble maker & isn't driven by some dark unknown force. I saw one rediculous comment about firing him, wich doesn't make any sense, first since you don't know anymore than the news article told you, & because he's actually looking out for the rights & freedom of the the student body he cares about. What are you all so afraid of? The anti religious are actually worse than the anti gun groups because they're trying to control the heart's & mind's of citizens within society. When people use the excuse, "well, the ACLU made it a rule...or the govt said so in a vote...", it's nothing more than a cop out by control freaks. Remember that when the 2nd amendment is taken by the same type of liberals that wanted to ban religion in schools. Banning free speech & religion in schools is socialism 101. I say live & let live, have a nice day, & do no harm to others when possible. Life is much simpler than people make it. :)

Edited September 22, 2014 by luvmyberetta

[R_Bert]

I'll be praying for y'all!

 

 

Thank you brother, looks we need it bad, I know I do.

 

 

Trust me, I'll be on it in the morning.  Every morning, I cruise this forum, FB, several email groups, and media outlets for my day's list. And, I journal it.

 

I cannot describe how significant prayer has been in my general well-being over the last ten years or so.  Were it any other way for me, I would have crashed and burned a long time ago.  Those who actually know my story, can attest.

 

Simply put, there is power in prayer, especially when praying for others.  So, like you, I need them too.  He rarely answers my requests in self-interest, but responds amazingly in the others.

 

A few years ago, I had an agnostic friend suddenly ask during dinner -

 

"Do you get feedback?"

 

me - "huh??"

 

him - "when you pray, does he answer?"

 

me - "Of course. Otherwise, it is a waste of time & breath!" 

 

Edited to add - One of my favorite promises of God:

 

Philippians 4:6-10 New Living Translation (NLT)

 

⁶ Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. ⁷ Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.

 

⁸ And now, dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. Fix your thoughts on what is true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise. ⁹ Keep putting into practice all you learned and received from me—everything you heard from me and saw me doing. Then the God of peace will be with you.

Edited September 22, 2014 by R_Bert

[Hershmeister]

It would be nice if folks took an interest in understanding the last 100 years of jurisprudence on this issue. It would help in this discussion.

[JayC]

According to SCOTUS the prohibition on the establishment of religion is one of the immunities which is incorporated via the 14th amendment, just like SCOTUS has ruled the rights of the 2nd Amendment are incorporated on the states via the 14th amendment.

 

As for section 3 of the TN Constitution, the school is created by an act of the state legislature aka, a law.  As such any sub-division of the legislature created by law is prohibited from giving preference to any religion...  This is also settled case law by the TN Supreme court for the better part of 30 years.  And if that doesn't work for you...  the principal is clearly a 'human authority' and has by his own admission interfered with the rights of conscience by making a request of students under his charge to make a religious prayer at a school function.

 

My guess is if the principal had requested that these cheerleaders say 'allahu akbar' during the minute of silence, you'd be ready to run him out of town on a rail...  That is why it's wrong, and why good Christians should demand their government not endorse any religion, because tomorrow it may well be some religion they don't believe in that is being endorsed.

 

When Christians try and use their majority to force this issue into the public sphere, by using government to try and establish their fate...  they're making it easier for religious minorities such as Muslims to establish sharia law in this country...  because if schools such as this one can endorse Christianity then the government can endorse sharia law be established on followers of Islam.  

 

At the end of the day, the real problem here is we have government run schools to begin with...  it's not good for anybody of faith to allow the government to take custody of your children for 6 to 7 hours a day...  but until we do away with government run schools, they need strict restrictions on those school, including anything that has even the slightest feeling of endorsing any religion.  Trust me in the long run that is what benefits everybody involved include Christians.

 

That's the best argument I've read in this thread, but I still disagree with your premise.

 

The 14th amendment of the U.S. Constitution states:

I assume you are referring to section one. I see no encroachment of anyone's life, liberty, or property by having a prayer at a ball game.

 

As for the State of Tennessee Constitution, you are leaving out two words; "by law".

I find no evidence the principal of the school passed any law requiring prayer before a ball game.

 

[DaveTN]

At the end of the day, the real problem here is we have government run schools to begin with...  it's not good for anybody of faith to allow the government to take custody of your children for 6 to 7 hours a day...  but until we do away with government run schools, they need strict restrictions on those school, including anything that has even the slightest feeling of endorsing any religion.  Trust me in the long run that is what benefits everybody involved include Christians.

Nonsense. Nothing keeps you from sending your children to private schools. But many people can’t afford that and children need formal education more now than ever to be able to compete in life. Social skills, religion and moral and ethical attitudes is part of that. If you don’t agree with what they see and hear in school then you do something about it at home; you don’t fire the principal because he suggested a prayer.

Many parents teach their children they are entitled and protected by the laws and the Constitution, and that they don’t have to answer to anyone. Nothing is further from the truth and they find that out when they get out in the workplace.

You can’t fire everyone you don’t agree with and in the case I doubt the parents or the students would stand for. Firing a principal for suggesting a prayer? I can think of some places and some times where that would not have surprised me. But most of us in this country haven’t fallen that far yet.

[JayC]

As you said the vast majority of people can't afford private schools...  and the fact is unless you're from two branches of Christianity finding a private school to teach your children is pretty much impossible.  Catholic and Evangelical schools are very common in TN, otherwise there are just a handful of schools for other religions most of which are for the Jewish and Islamic faiths.  If you fall outside those limited options you're pretty much out of luck.

 

Call me one of those crazy parents...  I am endowed by my Creator with natural rights that are mine alone, and only I can choose to surrender those rights of my own free will...  luckily most of those rights are protected by the constitution, and a smaller number of them are respected by the current government.  I don't live in a fantasy, I realize that I'm not free, and I keep my head down and suffer through infringements of my rights on a daily basis, because the world isn't 'fair', and I except that as an adult...  but I'm not willing to give up...  the chains of slavery chafe against my shoulders, and weight heavy on my soul.

 

And in the past I have willingly given up my rights (along  with my morals and ethics unfortunately) at the whim of my employers who wanted things a certain way...  as I get older and see what is important...  I work to reduce those types of situations in my life, the one area of my life I can't seem to reduce is the government infringements on my rights, ethics and morals...  which is why I feel that violations of those by the government and people in the employment of the government should be harsh...  because we can all find a different church... we can all find a different job... and we can all find a different place to shop...  we're all stuck with the government.  And since the government is the only thing on that list which can use force legally, violations by it should be swift and harsh IMHO.

 

And yes the Principal should be fired without question...  as clear as day he intentionally violated the constitution (both Federal and State)...  He knowingly enlisted children under his charge into a conspiracy to violate not only the constitutionally protected rights of students but members of the public...  I think frankly that firing him doesn't send a strong enough message...  and while I know most are blinded by their own small minds to even call for that...  there should be real punishment for behavior this outlandish.

 

If you could find a DA to charge him, I would happily support charges and jail time for the principal.  Just as I would support criminal charges against the teacher in East TN who punished a student for saying God bless you in class.  

 

Nonsense. Nothing keeps you from sending your children to private schools. But many people can’t afford that and children need formal education more now than ever to be able to compete in life. Social skills, religion and moral and ethical attitudes is part of that. If you don’t agree with what they see and hear in school then you do something about it at home; you don’t fire the principal because he suggested a prayer.

Many parents teach their children they are entitled and protected by the laws and the Constitution, and that they don’t have to answer to anyone. Nothing is further from the truth and they find that out when they get out in the workplace.

You can’t fire everyone you don’t agree with and in the case I doubt the parents or the students would stand for. Firing a principal for suggesting a prayer? I can think of some places and some times where that would not have surprised me. But most of us in this country haven’t fallen that far yet.

Edited September 22, 2014 by JayC

[gregintenn]

According to SCOTUS the prohibition on the establishment of religion is one of the immunities which is incorporated via the 14th amendment, just like SCOTUS has ruled the rights of the 2nd Amendment are incorporated on the states via the 14th amendment.

 

As for section 3 of the TN Constitution, the school is created by an act of the state legislature aka, a law.  As such any sub-division of the legislature created by law is prohibited from giving preference to any religion...  This is also settled case law by the TN Supreme court for the better part of 30 years.  And if that doesn't work for you...  the principal is clearly a 'human authority' and has by his own admission interfered with the rights of conscience by making a request of students under his charge to make a religious prayer at a school function.

 

My guess is if the principal had requested that these cheerleaders say 'allahu akbar' during the minute of silence, you'd be ready to run him out of town on a rail...  That is why it's wrong, and why good Christians should demand their government not endorse any religion, because tomorrow it may well be some religion they don't believe in that is being endorsed.

 

When Christians try and use their majority to force this issue into the public sphere, by using government to try and establish their fate...  they're making it easier for religious minorities such as Muslims to establish sharia law in this country...  because if schools such as this one can endorse Christianity then the government can endorse sharia law be established on followers of Islam.  

 

At the end of the day, the real problem here is we have government run schools to begin with...  it's not good for anybody of faith to allow the government to take custody of your children for 6 to 7 hours a day...  but until we do away with government run schools, they need strict restrictions on those school, including anything that has even the slightest feeling of endorsing any religion.  Trust me in the long run that is what benefits everybody involved include Christians.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the first part of your post, but I can sign on to the last paragraph 100%.

Public schools suck.

[leroy]

How do your windbag protectors and jealous guarders of the rights of the minority come down on the protection of a bunch of kids that have been harassed and called names for expressing their faith...?

 

What about standin up for them...?

 

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/scott-campbell-morgan/2014/09/19/oneida-cheerleaders-bullied-for-pregame-prayer/15911031/

 

leroy

[Hershmeister]

How do your windbag protectors and jealous guarders of the rights of the minority come down on the protection of a bunch of kids that have been harassed and called names for expressing their faith...?

What about standin up for them...?

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/scott-campbell-morgan/2014/09/19/oneida-cheerleaders-bullied-for-pregame-prayer/15911031/

leroy

That is wrong and I condemn anyone harassing or threatening them.

[JayC]

The children involved aren't at fault here...  the only adults in power who knowingly used them to circumvent school board policy and the constitution.  Any adult involved should be fired...  

 

The Cheerleaders should be allowed to pray if they want to... but it's probably a valuable lesson for them to learn that the 1st Amendment only protects them from government interference, not interference by small minded individuals who can't separate free speech of kids, from the misdeeds of government officials who attempted to use those children for their own ends.

 

But, you're right...  people shouldn't be harassing these kids for praying.

 

How do your windbag protectors and jealous guarders of the rights of the minority come down on the protection of a bunch of kids that have been harassed and called names for expressing their faith...?

 

What about standin up for them...?

 

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/scott-campbell-morgan/2014/09/19/oneida-cheerleaders-bullied-for-pregame-prayer/15911031/

 

leroy

 

[leroy]

Glad ta hear you boys can see the real problem....

 

RE; This...

 

 

JayC opined:    ....The Cheerleaders should be allowed to pray if they want to... but it's probably a valuable lesson for them to learn that the 1st Amendment only protects them from government interference, not interference by small minded individuals who can't separate free speech of kids, from the misdeeds of government officials who attempted to use those children for their own ends.

 

The way i see things this mornin; there is more than enough "small mindedness" to go around... You will note that there ain't been a hearing to sort out the facts of this case; because no one has filed suit... Since the "facts" have not been examined; i aint sure your (..or my...) version is the accepted "King James Version"; as an old boss of mine used to be fond of sayin...  

 

All that bein said; it seems ta me that your windbaggery on this subject is just like mine; its rhetoic (...which i'll freely admit to; i like it --- you may not want to admit such a thing...)...  "Small mindedess" ain't just confined to those who don't see things your particular way... The "small mindedness" that you loathe so much could be very close to you...

 

That's how i see things from the anti-ACLU and anti-"small mindedness"  bunker this mornin...

 

leroy

Edited September 22, 2014 by leroy

[McGarrett]

Perhaps we should stone the principal, tie him to a herd of feral goats, and send him into the Pocket Wilderness. That's show him for informing those girls how to exercise their rights.

Might not want to mess with the principal, remember he's a government agent. I have the song "secret agent man" stuck in my head now.

[bersaguy]

Well, I have read all 6 pages of this thread and learned almost nothing but it was a nice read.  Really nice discussions on several levels. Like I have said in the past, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. In conclusion I figured out the Principal did something wrong and the Cheerleaders did what they thought was right but then turned out to be wrong because the principal was wrong yet the Cheerleaders were right because they were not wrong in saying a prayer.

 

Saying the Prayer offended someone and they threatened the Cheerleaders with physical harm for saying the prayers. That is totally out of line regardless of who was right or wrong in the beginning. You never threaten a child for any reason. I would not consider my self to be a crazy religious person by any means. I don't discuss my religious beliefs with any one because I think that is my business.

 

I will say this, I have my beliefs and other people have their beliefs. If a group of cheerleaders gather together and have a prayer so what. I would not be offended either way and be adult, accept that is their beliefs and move on. I would not feel I was having anything forced upon me because I am more of an adult and a person than that. I consider many of today's petty issues childish when it comes to things such as this. 

 

I served with a guy that was a proclaimed Atheist and he didn't mind letting any one and every one around him know it. He made it quite clear to all concerned and even those who weren't concerned. About 14 months into our tour we came under attack while on patrol and he got shot up pretty bad and my medic was working frantically to keep him alive. I was on my knees working with the medic and the soldier looked at me and said I'm going to die and I said I don't know.

 

 

His last words were " Sir, will you say a prayer for me tonight and ask GOD to forgive me?" I thought a few seconds and I said yes and about 10 seconds later he was gone. I kept my promise that night under the stars I said a Prayer for him. I told GOD that I had not ask him for much since I was just a little boy but I had a request from someone and I am fulfilling a promise I made and I said my prayer for him. I wanted to share that because in a few ways it seems appropriate here. In all honesty I do believe there are true Atheists in the world and I honestly thought in my heart that that soldier was one but I guess my judgement was off a little.

 

I did a lot of thinking after that day and night about many things in life and how we really think we know so much when in all reality we know very little. We are trying to live a life we think is what we want but in the very very far back corner of out heart, soul and brain their is that  very small question mark saying " Is this all there is or is there so much more"?

 

I have suffered a lot of grief in my life but I think there is always someone out there that has suffered so much more. I often allow my mind go back to 1990 when I buried my Father I dearly loved in April totally unexpected, my Grandfather I loved in June, My brother next oldest to me passed unexpectedly in his sleep in July at the age of 41 and my son which was expected  four 4 years and was living on borrowed time since the night of his accident.  He passed away in August 1990. Lost the Love of my life in 97 to a heart attack.

 

I look at this world today and I wonder how it has lasted as long as it has with every one complaining about everything someone else is doing or saying and all of the petty little things that people can find to argue about. Has anyone besides me ever wondered what it would be like to just 1 time in their life turned on the TV and the evening news reporter saying   "Well, we have had another day of peace across the world and the weather is nice and that is the news for today!"  I have and it is a beautiful thought until reality sets back in....................jmho

[Hozzie]

I got a kick out of this response.  It goes back to my third post.  It is the extremists on both sides that are the problem.  I will take this one by one speaking for myself as an Atheist.

 

It's clear athiests can't truely discuss religion since they think it's the same thing as the Easter Bunny or a cartoon character in their minds.

 

They clearly have the right to feel that way, but NOT to infringe on the rights of believers...

I think most of us are open to discussing religion.  You seem to throw everyone into the same bucket of extremism and that's not the case.  Just like I don't consider every Muslim to believe in death to all who don't praise Allah, every Atheist doesn't believe you don't have rights.

 

I am curious how this in any way infringes on your rights.  You can pray anytime you want before, during, or after any game.  Oh, you want it to be a formal prayer scheduled as part of the festivities so you can feel good about it? Got it.  Pray, no one is stopping you but yourself. 

 

What are you all so afraid of? The anti religious are actually worse than the anti gun groups because they're trying to control the heart's & mind's of citizens within society.

 

 I say live & let live, have a nice day, & do no harm to others when possible. Life is much simpler than people make it.  :)

I am not afraid of anything from a religion perspective.  Spiders yes, God, no.  I may find out one day I was wrong (or not), and if I do, I will own my decision.  I am comfortable in how I live my life as you should be in yours.  I have no desire to tell you how to live your life.

 

No one is trying to control your heart or mind, give me a break.  They simply ask that you do what you believe in from a religious perspective without it having to be formally thrust upon them, which could also be considered trying to control their heart and mind by them.  Again, sit in your seat and pray.  I bet not one person says a word to you.

 

I say live & let live, have a nice day, & do no harm to others when possible. Life is much simpler than people make it. 

We can certainly agree on this.  People (all people) need to relax a little.  

Edited September 22, 2014 by Hozzie

[luvmyberetta]

I got a kick out of this response.  It goes back to my third post.  It is the extremists on both sides that are the problem.  I will take this one by one speaking for myself as an Atheist.

 

I think most of us are open to discussing religion.  You seem to throw everyone into the same bucket of extremism and that's not the case.  Just like I don't consider every Muslim to believe in death to all who don't praise Allah, every Atheist doesn't believe you don't have rights.

 

I am curious how this in any way infringes on your rights.  You can pray anytime you want before, during, or after any game.  Oh, you want it to be a formal prayer scheduled as part of the festivities so you can feel good about it? Got it.  Pray, no one is stopping you but yourself. 

 

I am not afraid of anything from a religion perspective.  Spiders yes, God, no.  I may find out one day I was wrong (or not), and if I do, I will own my decision.  I am comfortable in how I live my life as you should be in yours.  I have no desire to tell you how to live your life.

 

No one is trying to control your heart or mind, give me a break.  They simply ask that you do what you believe in from a religious perspective without it having to be formally thrust upon them, which could also be considered trying to control their heart and mind by them.  Again, sit in your seat and pray.  I bet not one person says a word to you.

 

We can certainly agree on this.  People (all people) need to relax a little.  

 

I'm not talking about people that wish to have a civil discussion or give opinions without making threats or calling names or making personal remarks about us worshiping the Easter Bunny, etc. A discussion about God vs no God can be healthy, but kept civil. I respect your right to chose to be an athiest & agree there can be extremist on both sides of the coin. I won't call a person names if they choose not to believe & I expect the same in return. What I feel infringes on my rights are the anti prayer/anti religious folks that actually take steps to ban prayer because it might offend someone, or want to tryo to get the pricipal fired, or make threats against us who do chose to pray. The articles don't go into detail about what's happening in the community & some of the threats that have been made in emails, etc... aren't released & they are being investigated. Some of the teenagers are scared to come forward.

 

I have no problem with voiced opinions or compromise, but banning or making religion illegal IS trying to control people's heart's & mind's because religious beliefs is very important in the lives of millions of people. The big picture is more than simply banning it at sporting events. Where will it stop? It's no different than banning the 1st amendment & working your way down the list. What if a group of people got together & told you that YOU were wrong for loving your children, wife, or family & would press charges, get you fired, or harm you or your family if you disagreed? Wouldn't you take that to heart? What about genocide? My examples sound extreme, but small things tend to snowball & it has happended around the world. Having faith in God is not grounds for harrassment or mistreatment by anyone so long as we do no harm. It's perfectly ok for anyone to voice an opinion & to disagree, but groups like the ACLU are making life stressful for people they don't even know & don't care about to begin with by taking rights. It's all about control & those that gain power (govt., politicians, anti groups, etc...) don't often know when to quit. One day even the right to give an opinion may be taken.

 

I do understand many people may find prayers at the beggining of a ball game offensive, but what harm has it done? Are laws condemning prayer actually making the world a better place or is it simply pacifying those with a bug up their shorts? 30 seconds of prayer won't make anyone's head explode unless they have a bomb in their hat set for 29 seconds. :rofl:

 

I apologize if my comments have offended members, but an apology is all I can give. My statements are my opinion & how I personally feel, not intended to insult anyone or meant to start an arguement. If the mods feel I've overstepped my bounds let me know & we can close the thread. Otherwise I hope we can keep it friendly.

Edited September 22, 2014 by luvmyberetta

[JayC]

I haven't seen a single person suggest that you or anybody else should be banned from praying whenever and where ever you're moved to...

 

The issue is when a government employee knowingly violates the constitution...  that person should be held accountable.. and just so we're clear, firing him should be the first step... frankly I think he should be sitting in prison for the rest of his natural life.  That is how harshly we should treat violations of our fundamental rights by government employees who knowingly violate the rights of children under their care.

 

The principal crossed a line, by his own admission, he approached the cheerleaders and requested they pray at the school function, he did so to intentionally subvert a school board policy, federal and state case law, and both constitutions...  

 

Again nobody is suggesting that people can't pray, that they can't come together and pray at school events...  all we're saying is agents of the government can't request or demand that people pray, nor should those prayers be setup as a formal part of the event.

 

If these cheerleaders had chosen to do this on their own with no prompting from the school administration, it would have been amazing.

 

But, that isn't what happened, the principal asked (aka told) the cheerleaders to say the prayer during the moment of silence, and that is by it's very definition an agent of the government endorsing one form of religion over another....  if you can't see the problem with that, it's hopeless.

 

I'm not talking about people that wish to have a civil discussion or give opinions without making threats or calling names or making personal remarks about us worshiping the Easter Bunny, etc. A discussion about God vs no God can be healthy, but kept civil. I respect your right to chose to be an athiest & agree there can be extremist on both sides of the coin. I won't call a person names if they choose not to believe & I expect the same in return. What I feel infringes on my rights are the anti prayer/anti religious folks that actually take steps to ban prayer because it might offend someone, or want to tryo to get the pricipal fired, or make threats against us who do chose to pray. The articles don't go into detail about what's happening in the community & some of the threats that have been made in emails, etc... aren't released & they are being investigated. Some of the teenagers are scared to come forward.

 

I have no problem with voiced opinions or compromise, but banning or making religion illegal IS trying to control people's heart's & mind's because religious beliefs is very important in the lives of millions of people. The big picture is more than simply banning it at sporting events. Where will it stop? It's no different than banning the 1st amendment & working your way down the list. What if a group of people got together & told you that YOU were wrong for loving your children, wife, or family & would press charges, get you fired, or harm you or your family if you disagreed? Wouldn't you take that to heart? What about genocide? My examples sound extreme, but small things tend to snowball & it has happended around the world. Having faith in God is not grounds for harrassment or mistreatment by anyone so long as we do no harm. It's perfectly ok for anyone to voice an opinion & to disagree, but groups like the ACLU are making life stressful for people they don't even know & don't care about to begin with by taking rights. It's all about control & those that gain power (govt., politicians, anti groups, etc...) don't often know when to quit. One day even the right to give an opinion may be taken.

 

I do understand many people may find prayers at the beggining of a ball game offensive, but what harm has it done? Are laws condemning prayer actually making the world a better place or is it simply pacifying those with a bug up their shorts? 30 seconds of prayer won't make anyone's head explode unless they have a bomb in their hat set for 29 seconds. :rofl:

 

I apologize if my comments have offended members, but an apology is all I can give. I can't change how I feel. If the mods feel I've overstepped my bounds let me know & we can close the thread. Otherwise I hope we can keep it friendly.

 

[bersaguy]

LMB and Hozzie both have good points and the points are that they agree to disagree but it is not meant to be hurtful as much as it is a discussion about a situation which is about a mistake made by a human being that is not perfect but is a principal of  school and it is the poor cheerleaders that are taking the brunt of the storm which is totally not fair...........jmho on that.

 

Now this very same issue has not only be taken up at the high school levels. It was also taken up at the Professional levels of sports. The only difference is those little trouble makers known as the ACLU found out right quick that they made a very large mistake when you get out of your league. They stepped up to the Big times and tried to get prayer controlled first in baseball. The Major League Commissioner was nice enough he told each team that it was the Leagues decision that as far as prayers before a game were concerned they would be leaving that up to the owners of the individual teams to make that decision and it ended there.

 

Then they went after the NFL and pretty much got the same answer that base ball gave them. They said that the NFL Commission did not have a stand on a prayer issue but it would be up to the owners of each team as to how they handled the prayer issue but as far as the NFL League, they would be remaining neutral.

 

Gotta love the next one. The ACLU big wheels went to Florida to have a discussion back years ago with Mr. France at NASCAR. Yep!!!!  They came right down here in the middle of the Bible belt to confront NASCAR on their decision to no longer have a Pastor say a prayer for the drivers and all in attendance at the home of NASCAR. The Daytona 500 in February of that year. Mr France was polite for a short time and he told them that with all due respect there would be a prayer at the Daytona 500 and every NASCAR event after that one. One of them spoke up and I still don't have a clue what he said but Mr France's reply to him was "You take your Yankee A$$es back up where you came from and Pound Sand cause we will have prayers and you don't have to watch or attend any of the races if your offended!" and Track Security escorted them out. 

 

So with that said, the ACLU found out right quick what league they can play in and what ones they cannot. I guess they better stick with principals and cheerleaders....................jmho

[Hozzie]

I'm not talking about people that wish to have a civil discussion or give opinions without making threats or calling names or making personal remarks about us worshiping the Easter Bunny, etc. A discussion about God vs no God can be healthy, but kept civil. I respect your right to chose to be an athiest & agree there can be extremist on both sides of the coin. I won't call a person names if they choose not to believe & I expect the same in return. What I feel infringes on my rights are the anti prayer/anti religious folks that actually take steps to ban prayer because it might offend someone, or want to tryo to get the pricipal fired, or make threats against us who do chose to pray. The articles don't go into detail about what's happening in the community & some of the threats that have been made in emails, etc... aren't released & they are being investigated. Some of the teenagers are scared to come forward.

 

I have no problem with voiced opinions or compromise, but banning or making religion illegal IS trying to control people's heart's & mind's because religious beliefs is very important in the lives of millions of people. The big picture is more than simply banning it at sporting events. Where will it stop? It's no different than banning the 1st amendment & working your way down the list. What if a group of people got together & told you that YOU were wrong for loving your children, wife, or family & would press charges, get you fired, or harm you or your family if you disagreed? Wouldn't you take that to heart? What about genocide? My examples sound extreme, but small things tend to snowball & it has happended around the world. Having faith in God is not grounds for harrassment or mistreatment by anyone so long as we do no harm. It's perfectly ok for anyone to voice an opinion & to disagree, but groups like the ACLU are making life stressful for people they don't even know & don't care about to begin with by taking rights. It's all about control & those that gain power (govt., politicians, anti groups, etc...) don't often know when to quit. One day even the right to give an opinion may be taken.

 

I do understand many people may find prayers at the beggining of a ball game offensive, but what harm has it done? Are laws condemning prayer actually making the world a better place or is it simply pacifying those with a bug up their shorts? 30 seconds of prayer won't make anyone's head explode unless they have a bomb in their hat set for 29 seconds. :rofl:

 

I apologize if my comments have offended members, but an apology is all I can give. My statements are my opinion & how I personally feel, not intended to insult anyone or meant to start an arguement. If the mods feel I've overstepped my bounds let me know & we can close the thread. Otherwise I hope we can keep it friendly.

 

I haven't been offended one bit, so no worries on that front.  I actually agree with most of what you have said in regards to having a civil discussion without threats or calling names (unless they are used in the right context  :pleased: ).  There is no need for any of that.  While you may ask what harm it does, the point is it doesn't have to do harm.  That's not the standard.    I don't believe that it makes the world any better either, but that's just my opinion.

 

I don't agree with JayC about firing the principal though and the thought of putting him in jail for life is laughable.  Was what the guy did wrong, yes.  Is it worth losing his job, maybe depending on how it went down.  We all make mistakes and do things we think were right at the time, but may have a different view later on.  Hopefully he learns from this and realizes to keep his faith personal while acting as principal.  If he can't do that, then yes he should be fired.  I suspect he is a good citizen and we don't need to take productive members of society and put them in jail for a single mistake.  If that is the standard, we will all be in jail.  

Edited September 22, 2014 by Hozzie

[Hozzie]

LMB and Hozzie both have good points and the points are that they agree to disagree but it is not meant to be hurtful as much as it is a discussion about a situation which is about a mistake made by a human being that is not perfect but is a principal of  school and it is the poor cheerleaders that are taking the brunt of the storm which is totally not fair...........jmho on that.

 

Now this very same issue has not only be taken up at the high school levels. It was also taken up at the Professional levels of sports. The only difference is those little trouble makers known as the ACLU found out right quick that they made a very large mistake when you get out of your league. They stepped up to the Big times and tried to get prayer controlled first in baseball. The Major League Commissioner was nice enough he told each team that it was the Leagues decision that as far as prayers before a game were concerned they would be leaving that up to the owners of the individual teams to make that decision and it ended there.

 

Then they went after the NFL and pretty much got the same answer that base ball gave them. They said that the NFL Commission did not have a stand on a prayer issue but it would be up to the owners of each team as to how they handled the prayer issue but as far as the NFL League, they would be remaining neutral.

 

Gotta love the next one. The ACLU big wheels went to Florida to have a discussion back years ago with Mr. France at NASCAR. Yep!!!!  They came right down here in the middle of the Bible belt to confront NASCAR on their decision to no longer have a Pastor say a prayer for the drivers and all in attendance at the home of NASCAR. The Daytona 500 in February of that year. Mr France was polite for a short time and he told them that with all due respect there would be a prayer at the Daytona 500 and every NASCAR event after that one. One of them spoke up and I still don't have a clue what he said but Mr France's reply to him was "You take your Yankee A$$es back up where you came from and Pound Sand cause we will have prayers and you don't have to watch or attend any of the races if your offended!" and Track Security escorted them out. 

 

So with that said, the ACLU found out right quick what league they can play in and what ones they cannot. I guess they better stick with principals and cheerleaders....................jmho

 

Big difference Bersa.  Those are private organizations, not public/government run and funded organizations.  

Edited September 22, 2014 by Hozzie

[JayC]

Difference between us and the principal...  one of us is acting as an agent of the government with the ability to violate the civil rights of people under their charge.  If he had gone out and started the prayer himself, because of his convictions...  I'd have an entirely different opinion of the situation...  but that isn't what happened.

 

The Principal made a decision to violate school board policy and the constitution knowing full well his actions were wrong... he then enlisted minors (Cheerleaders) under his charge into a conspiracy to violate both their rights, and the rights of other students and citizens of the community in an attempt to too cute by half to pawn the risk off onto the cheerleaders, realizing there would likely be backlash for his actions.

 

That's why I think he needs to be fired, and he needs to be charged and spend a very long time in jail...  this isn't just bad judgement, it was intentional IMHO.  Because you need to make an example of people who willfully violate the constitution...  to discourage others from doing the same in the future...

 

But, we both know it's unlikely he'll loose his job, and there is no chance he'll be charged or found guilty...  What will happen?  Somebody is going to file a lawsuit against the school, and they'll win...  and a large chunk of this small school boards budget will be wasted because of this principals 'mistake'...  And those cheerleaders, they'll receive a ton of negative publicity from small minded individuals that can't see they aren't at fault.

 

I haven't been offended one bit, so no worries on that front.  I actually agree with most of what you have said in regards to having a civil discussion without threats or calling names (unless they are used in the right context  :pleased: ).  There is no need for any of that.  While you may ask what harm it does, the point is it doesn't have to do harm.  That's not the standard.    I don't believe that it makes the world any better either, but that's just my opinion.

 

I don't agree with JayC about firing the principal though and the thought of putting him in jail for life is laughable.  Was what the guy did wrong, yes.  Is it worth losing his job, maybe depending on how it went down.  We all make mistakes and do things we think were right at the time, but may have a different view later on.  Hopefully he learns from this and realizes to keep his faith personal while acting as principal.  If he can't do that, then yes he should be fired.  I suspect he is a good citizen and we don't need to take productive members of society and put them in jail for a single mistake.  If that is the standard, we will all be in jail.