Local High School Attacked for Prayers

[bersaguy]

Big difference Bersa.  Those are private organizations, not public/government run and funded organizations.  

I know Hozzie but it is the same thing in the fact that that little scum bag Organization throws their weight around making many people lives Hell. I also realize that the organizations I mentioned are also owned by stock holders and investors and it seems that regardless if it's a foot ball game at a local High School of in Cowboy Stadium. The first amendment says that a person has the right to speak. Now with that being said. I may hear someone screaming at the top of their lungs something that is angering me to hear what they are saying just as bad buy I will not argue with them. What I will do is fight with my last breath up my death  defending their right to say what ever they are saying. That is what made America so great and that is what will make it the America we all have loved all our lives.

 

 

Our biggest challenge ahead of most of the younger generations and I am referring to the parents of toddlers all the way till they are grown this day in time need to teach their children what this nation once was and what it needs to be again and not all this trash they are being taught in school. If a Teacher stands in front of a class and says ok lets discuss Climate Change or Global Warming one of the students need to raise their hand and ask the teacher if he/she is referring to Mother nature and what changes she is making upon the earth as she has done for 1000's of years.

 

 

My Grandson did that for me last month and the teacher sent him to the office for being disrupting. I made a trip to school the next day with him and I asked her to show me total 100% proof that man is causing the climate changes we are seeing or is it just a natural change like has happened at least 1000 times in the earths history and I could not believe she produced Al Gores book as her proof and i could not help it and I busted out laughing. 

 

I then asked he 1 question for which she could not answer out of Al's book. I asked her if man is causing all of the volcanic eruptions and active volcano's and Earthquakes or are they natural acts of Nature and she could not answer. I rested my case and ask her not to send my grandson to the office because of her lack of intelligence to answer a 9 year old's question............... :up:

 

As to your response about public / Government funded organizations. Public schools are funded with money collected from the private sector in the way of taxes and I am sure the parents of those cheerleaders paid more than their share of taxes for their children to attend that school. Does the ACLU also attend school there and pay taxes to support that school. Those cheerleaders have just as much right to hold a prayer as the atheist  has to not listen or hold a peaceful protest at the game against the prayer. Yes Principal was wrong!!!!..................... :up:

Edited September 23, 2014 by bersaguy

[DaveTN]

That's why I think he needs to be fired, and he needs to be charged and spend a very long time in jail...  this isn't just bad judgement, it was intentional IMHO.  Because you need to make an example of people who willfully violate the constitution...  to discourage others from doing the same in the future...

Well, luckily we don’t live in the countries that have tried that. Oh wait… luck has nothing to do with it; it’s because that is not what our founding Fathers intended, and the American people would never stand for it. Our men and women have fought and died against those that tried because it is wrong.
 

Because you need to make an example of people who willfully violate the constitution... to discourage others from doing the same in the future...

Set what kind of example? Firing him for what he did would almost guarantee him a new job; probably better than the one he had. Christians won’t let someone suffer because they suggested prayer. The ones that would try to fire him should be the ones out in the cold… and would be.

[gregintenn]

Difference between us and the principal...  one of us is acting as an agent of the government with the ability to violate the civil rights of people under their charge.  If he had gone out and started the prayer himself, because of his convictions...  I'd have an entirely different opinion of the situation...  but that isn't what happened.

 

The Principal made a decision to violate school board policy and the constitution knowing full well his actions were wrong... he then enlisted minors (Cheerleaders) under his charge into a conspiracy to violate both their rights, and the rights of other students and citizens of the community in an attempt to too cute by half to pawn the risk off onto the cheerleaders, realizing there would likely be backlash for his actions.

 

That's why I think he needs to be fired, and he needs to be charged and spend a very long time in jail...  this isn't just bad judgement, it was intentional IMHO.  Because you need to make an example of people who willfully violate the constitution...  to discourage others from doing the same in the future...

 

But, we both know it's unlikely he'll loose his job, and there is no chance he'll be charged or found guilty...  What will happen?  Somebody is going to file a lawsuit against the school, and they'll win...  and a large chunk of this small school boards budget will be wasted because of this principals 'mistake'...  And those cheerleaders, they'll receive a ton of negative publicity from small minded individuals that can't see they aren't at fault.

You've stated in nearly every post you've posted here that the principal has violated the constitution. You can say it a million times, but you'd still be wrong.

 

In an earlier post, you cited a supreme court decision to back your statement. Just a short while back, the supreme court decided in a 5-4 decision that the second amendment gave you the right to own a firearm. Had the decision been 5-4 that you didn't have that right, would that change the literal meaning of the second amendment to you?

 

The supreme court has historically been wrong in many instances.

[R_Bert]

Related - University of TN


http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/university-of-tennessee-refuses-to-ban-pre-game-prayers.html

[Hershmeister]

You've stated in nearly every post you've posted here that the principal has violated the constitution. You can say it a million times, but you'd still be wrong.

In an earlier post, you cited a supreme court decision to back your statement. Just a short while back, the supreme court decided in a 5-4 decision that the second amendment gave you the right to own a firearm. Had the decision been 5-4 that you didn't have that right, would that change the literal meaning of the second amendment to you?

The supreme court has historically been wrong in many instances.

They incorporated the mcdonald case in the exact same manner as the 1st amendment issues - so you are standing on thin ice making this argument.


jayc's poiny is the principal knowing took an action which is unlawful. You may not agree, but that does not make it any less unlawful.

I do agree with his sentiment that government official who disobey the constitution should have some sort of repercussion in order to dissuade the bad behavior of others. What that punishment should be, i dont know. But think how many times we have discussion on TGO about various 2nd amendment violators who just do whatever they wish - DC,Chicago, CT anyone?

Lastly, the ACLU served many a right purpose - sadly, they have crossed the line from principled guardians of the Bill of Rights to oftentimes liberal agenda supporters.

The good American Centet for law and justice is an organization similar to the aclu and focused on many "conservative" issues related to civil liberties which the aclu seems to gloss over

http://aclj.org

[Mike.357]

shalom and amen

[TMF]

So if one of the TGO admins ask for a moment of silence in this thread, are they compelling its participants to lead in the Lord's prayer?

Edited September 23, 2014 by TMF

[leroy]

Related - University of TN


http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/university-of-tennessee-refuses-to-ban-pre-game-prayers.html

HEHEHE... Even a sorry, fish faced ole educrat like Jimmy Cheek (... and the UT legal staff...) knows better than to tolerate these incursions against the First Amendment... Even a blind hog will pick up an acorn every now and then... 

 

Thanks for posting this bit of news... My guess is that ya cant read it in that godless rag the Knox News... It's too heinous for them to post... HEHEHE...

 

leroy

Edited September 23, 2014 by leroy

[Ugly]

This is ridiculous!

Meanwhile, our school system does an incredibly poor job of educating our youth due to the fine government involvement!

[R_Bert]

HEHEHE... Even a sorry, fish faced ole educrat like Jimmy Cheek (... and the UT legal staff...) knows better than to tolerate these incursions against the First Amendment... Even a blind hog will pick up an acorn every now and then... 

 

Thanks for posting this bit of news... My guess is that ya cant read it in that godless rag the Knox News... It's too heinous for them to post... HEHEHE...

 

Leroy

 

To be fair,  KNS linked to the FoxNews article.  It was at the bottom of the KNS site when I saw it.

 

Since it was FoxNews and not the inaccessible paywall crap from KNS, I posted it.

[JayC]

Greg,

 

I'm the first one to say SCOTUS gets it wrong a lot...  but I think we both can agree neither of us want the government endorsing one religion over another...  because while today in this case they might be endorsing the Christian faith tomorrow they could be endorsing a religion that makes both of us uncomfortable.

 

There are two SCOTUS cases you should read up on...  

 

The first is Abington Township v Schempp 1963, involving asking students to read the Lord's Prayer...  which is on the mark...

 

The second is Wallace v Jaffree 1985 which involved the creation of a period of silence for the purpose of private prayer.

 

The basic rule that SCOTUS developed in these cases is the 'secular rule test', which basically says if the actions by the government or it's agents must have a secular purpose for their actions not a religious one...  if the actions are motivated by religion then those actions violate the establishment clause.

 

If you look even more recently at Santa Fe Independent School District v Doe 2000 SCOTUS ruled that even student led, student initiated prayer is a violation of the establishment clause...

 

And even if you don't buy the SCOTUS rulings...

 

You still have the TN state constitution, which clearly prohibits a human authority from interfering with religion, or providing a preference of one religion over another....

 

Even if SCOTUS is wrong and the 1st Amendment protections aren't incorporated by the 14th Amendment (which would also mean that Heller and McDonald were also wrong on the 2nd Amendment)...  you still argue that States have the right to regulate religion via their own constitutions... and TN has done so, banning the legislature and any sub-divisions of it (which would include all schools), and any human authority, which clearly the principal acting as a government agent meets that definition...  are prohibited from giving preference to any religion over another.

 

Anyway you cut it, the Principal was in the wrong... he knowingly and intentionally violated both school board policy, as well as both the Federal and/or TN state constitutions...  And in the process of committing those violation enlisted the help of kids under his charge in this unlawful action acting in his official capacity as an agent of the government.

 

This is from Pew summarizing a number of cases here in the south by state supreme courts, including cases in TN:

 

 

Judges usually reach the same conclusion when school officials cooperate with students to produce student-delivered religious messages.  But courts are more divided in cases involving students action on their own to include a religious sentiment or prayer at a school commencement or a similar activity.

 

Some courts, particularly in the South, have upheld the constitutionality of student-initiated religious speech, emphasizing the private origins of this kind of religious expression. As long as school officials did not encourage or explicit approve the contents, those courts have upheld religious content in student commencement speeches.

 

Clearly the principal in this case has admitted to both encouraging the cheerleaders and recommending the contents of their speech at a school activity.

 

Greg, I'm sorry, but you're wrong...  the TN Constitution as well as the US Constitution clearly restricts the actions of a government agent while they're performing their duties...  There is no question his actions were unlawful.

 

You've stated in nearly every post you've posted here that the principal has violated the constitution. You can say it a million times, but you'd still be wrong.

 

In an earlier post, you cited a supreme court decision to back your statement. Just a short while back, the supreme court decided in a 5-4 decision that the second amendment gave you the right to own a firearm. Had the decision been 5-4 that you didn't have that right, would that change the literal meaning of the second amendment to you?

 

The supreme court has historically been wrong in many instances.

Edited September 24, 2014 by JayC

[JayC]

TMF, not a government agent...  therefore not bound by the establishment clause...  they could ask for a prayer, preach from their bible, whatever they want to do...  all protected by the 1st amendment.

 

It changes when it's a government official asking children under his charge to say a prayer at a school function....  not even the most conservative courts would uphold that behavior.

 

So if one of the TGO admins ask for a moment of silence in this thread, are they compelling its participants to lead in the Lord's prayer?

 

[TMF]

TMF, not a government agent...  therefore not bound by the establishment clause...  they could ask for a prayer, preach from their bible, whatever they want to do...  all protected by the 1st amendment.

 

It changes when it's a government official asking children under his charge to say a prayer at a school function....  not even the most conservative courts would uphold that behavior.

 

Whether or not an admin on this site is a government agent is irrelevant to the point I was making. 

Edited September 23, 2014 by TMF

[McGarrett]

So far I have not weighed in seriously on this topic so here goes. A little background on myself:  I do believe in God and prayer. I attend a Christian non denominational church. I was born and raised in East TN and lived here all of my life. I don't even have a garage you can call home and ask my wife. I have attended many events over the years during my own school years as well as with my children at both public and private schools, including sports events, graduation, award ceremonies, etc., that included a prayer before the event began. Although I have explained some of my views and background I am not trying to force my views on anyone else.

 

I have posed a few neutral questions for everyone to think on. It seems that these questions would come up during any judicial proceedings regarding this situation and might be key deciding factors in my opinion.

 

I have noticed that there is a lot of mention that the school principal, aka government agent, was the one who asked or influenced the cheerleaders to do the prayer. The principal is listed on the Town of Onedia Public Schools website; http://www.townofoneida.com/living/schools, as Kevin Byrd.

 

I just reread some of the news reports and the only name I see mentioned regarding someone requesting the prayer during the moment of silence was Kevin Acres who was said to be the football game announcer in the press box. I could not find any mention of Kevin Acres as a school employee or official but I may have missed it.

 

Edit: I did find in the wbir news story that said Kevin Acres had been the one who previously said the prayer over the PA system in years past but was no longer doing it when they began having the moment of silence, still not clear if he is a school official.

 

A few questions to ponder:

1. Is Kevin Acres in fact a government agent or just a volunteer announcer?

2. Regardless of the answer to question 1, Did Kevin Acres as the announcer make a general request inviting everyone to pray during the moment of silence or did he specifically speak to the cheerleaders? 

3. Was there influence by agents of the government concerning the cheerleaders prayer? Can this be proven?

4. Was the principal Kevin Byrd actually involved in this at all?

5. Is the cheerleader's prayer covered under Section 9524 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ("ESEA")? See link below.

6. Can a school system lose federal funding for not allowing prayer in schools or at school function pursuant with the requirements of the "ESEA"? Read the enforcement section in the link below

 

Some very relevant reading on the subject from the US Dept of Education; http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html

Edited September 23, 2014 by McGarrett

[Hershmeister]

So far I have not weighed in seriously on this topic so here goes. A little background on myself: I do believe in God and prayer. I attend a Christian non denominational church. I was born and raised in East TN and lived here all of my life. I don't even have a garage you can call home and ask my wife. I have attended many events over the years during my own school years as well as with my children at both public and private schools, including sports events, graduation, award ceremonies, etc., that included a prayer before the event began. Although I have explained some of my views and background I am not trying to force my views on anyone else.

I have posed a few neutral questions for everyone to think on. It seems that these questions would come up during any judicial proceedings regarding this situation and might be key deciding factors in my opinion.

I have noticed that there is a lot of mention that the school principal, aka government agent, was the one who asked or influenced the cheerleaders to do the prayer. The principal is listed on the Town of Onedia Public Schools website; http://www.townofoneida.com/living/schools, as Kevin Byrd.

I just reread some of the news reports and the only name I see mentioned regarding someone requesting the prayer during the moment of silence was Kevin Acres who was said to be the football game announcer in the press box. I could not find any mention of Kevin Acres as a school employee or official but I may have missed it.

Edit: I did find in the wbir news story that said Kevin Acres had been the one who previously said the prayer over the PA system in years past but was no longer doing it when they began having the moment of silence, still not clear if he is a school official.

A few questions to ponder:
1. Is Kevin Acres in fact a government agent or just a volunteer announcer?
2. Regardless of the answer to question 1, Did Kevin Acres as the announcer make a general request inviting everyone to pray during the moment of silence or did he specifically speak to the cheerleaders?
3. Was there influence by agents of the government concerning the cheerleaders prayer? Can this be proven?
4. Was the principal Kevin Byrd actually involved in this at all?
5. Is the cheerleader's prayer covered under Section 9524 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ("ESEA")? See link below.
6. Can a school system lose federal funding for not allowing prayer in schools or at school function pursuant with the requirements of the "ESEA"? Read the enforcement section in the link below

Some very relevant reading on the subject from the US Dept of Education; http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html

This news report has the interview with the principal, Kevin Byrd



http://www.knoxnews.com/sports/prepextra/pregame-prayer-is-back-in-oneida_89362831

[McGarrett]

I just read the links to the wbir stories in the original post, I had not seen this knoxnews article. Sounds like it would be left up to a judge to decide if this prayer meets the requirements of the "ESEA" section about prayer at school events and if it was influenced by government agents in violation of the "ESEA".

 

I understand that this topic has some members fired up but I was disappointed in the response of fellow TGO'ers to the OP's request for prayer in the General Chat section of the forums. If it had been a post he started in the hive to debate this topic I could see it going that way. I see prayer requests listed in here from time to time for any number of issues; illness, death in the family, personal problems, loss of job, etc and it was disappointing to see others use that as an opportunity to tear someone and their beliefs down.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited September 23, 2014 by McGarrett

[btq96r]

I understand that this topic has some members fired up but I was disappointed in the response of fellow TGO'ers to the OP's request for prayer in the General Chat section of the forums. If it had been a post he started in the hive to debate this topic I could see it going that way. I see prayer requests listed in here from time to time for any number of issues; illness, death in the family, personal problems, loss of job, etc and it was disappointing to see others use that as an opportunity to tear someone and their beliefs down.

 

I blame MIke.357, he started it :D.

 

But honestly, to me, the demarcation when someone gets engaged in debate on religious views seems to be when it's not involving a direct personal impact.  I think that's a fair method since I would never want to give someone going through a tough time with themselves, family or friends more on their plate by engaging in a topic as hot as religion. I would also consider someone who couldn't keep their thoughts to themselves in that instance in bad form.

 

But for generalities, I think it's a fair topic.  Especially this one since it involves a public institution which we all have at least some investment in- they get state and federal money.

[JayC]

I don't think ESEA is impacting because of this statement from the principal:

 

Byrd said...  â€œWe went to the cheerleaders and said ‘would you consider leading the Lord’s Prayer during the moment of silence for anyone that would want to join in?’ It was at their discretion and they organized it."

 

I'm curious who is 'we' in his statement, because is sounds like there maybe some others involved...  but it really doesn't matter...  It's pretty much game over by the comment right there...  all the ACLU needs is a single person in attendance for their lawsuit and the school board will be signing a big fat check...

 

At the end of the day I'm not a big fan of the ACLU, so maybe the government can stop doing 'stupid stuff' so the tax payers don't have to keep writing big checks to them?

 

I just read the links to the wbir stories in the original post, I had not seen this knoxnews article. Sounds like it would be left up to a judge to decide if this prayer meets the requirements of the "ESEA" section about prayer at school events and if it was influenced by government agents in violation of the "ESEA".

 

I understand that this topic has some members fired up but I was disappointed in the response of fellow TGO'ers to the OP's request for prayer in the General Chat section of the forums. If it had been a post he started in the hive to debate this topic I could see it going that way. I see prayer requests listed in here from time to time for any number of issues; illness, death in the family, personal problems, loss of job, etc and it was disappointing to see others use that as an opportunity to tear someone and their beliefs down.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited September 24, 2014 by JayC

[Mike.357]

I have not seen anyone get personal in this thread.  We all have beliefs.   And if this was being talked about in a room with us all present I doubt anyone would be butthurt.

 

I seriously never write anything on TGO I would not say right to anyone's face.

[TMF]

I seriously never write anything on TGO I would not say right to anyone's face.

Should be that way on here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gregintenn]

Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion civil. I've learned quit a bit from it, and usually discussions of a religious nature don't end well. :up:

[RED333]

Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion civil. I've learned quit a bit from it, and usually discussions of a religious nature don't end well. :up:

I was thinking the same thing, we have been tolerant on this one.

[McGarrett]

,

 

I seriously never write anything on TGO I would not say right to anyone's face.

Well said, I operate on that same rule myself.