As posted elsewhere...

[TGO David]

Which of these two illustrates correct muzzle discipline for carrying a carbine on the grounds of OHGC?

#1

Muzzle in the sky.

#2

Position SUL. Muzzle to the ground, tightly controlled within a 180* arc immediately in front of the operator, confined to the operator's person via tight strap around torso.

#1 seems like an inherently bad idea to me given that Sir Isaac Newton's laws stated centuries ago that what goes up must indeed come down. In the event of a negligent discharge, a round fired skyward would potentially result in damage or injury to personnel or property whereas a round fired into the ground stops there with minimal hazard to anyone but the firearm's operator.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Well... I'm obviously just a natural badass... so, whether the situation warrants it or not, I always walk around like option #3:

[Guest bkelm18]

Well... I'm obviously just a natural badass... so, whether the situation warrants it or not, I always walk around like option #3:

That's pretty much how I carry my AK when I walk around the house.

[strickj]

Is Osama really that small in real life?

[EMTRN]

Well... I'm obviously just a natural badass... so, whether the situation warrants it or not, I always walk around like option #3:

He's behind you!

[molonlabetn]

We'd have to ask one of his wives... or the goat.

[Angus]

Is Osama really that small in real life?

Tight knot and a short drop

[Guest Boomhower]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_season_4#Episode_50_.E2.80.94_.22Bullets_Fired_Up.22

[ShaunM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_season_4#Episode_50_.E2.80.94_.22Bullets_Fired_Up.22

Maybe the orange hat nazi's could use a copy of this.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Hunting101

[G27]

Is Osama really that small in real life?

Duh - why do you think we haven't found him yet?

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Duh - why do you think we haven't found him yet?

Oh, we've found him several times... assuming we ever truly lost his position to begin with... but the "powers that be" would never green light taking him out. I know this for a fact, on at least two definite occasions, and I'm still quite pissed about it for personal reasons.

[TGO David]

Oh, we've found him several times... assuming we ever truly lost his position to begin with... but the "powers that be" would never green light taking him out. I know this for a fact, on at least two definite occasions, and I'm still quite pissed about it for personal reasons.

I'm not surprised. The media would have been all over the USAF for dropping a GBU into the middle of an Obama '08 campaign HQ.

[TGO David]

This morning, I had a reply from the acting VP of OHGC regarding my inquiry. I shall repost it here for the benefit of all.

I must admit that Sadam has is right. We at OHGC are not soldiers, even though some who use the range like to play at being soldiers.

We do not like fireams pointed at the ground where they can potentially cause injury. They must be pointed up, or down range. This insures that they do not cover anyone.

You Tungeten, as a member of OHGC should know this.

Marshall Dozier,

VP, OHGC

PS: We are not Fuds or Nazis either. Most of us have been shooting and practicing safe gun practice's when others were in kindergarden.

In addition, most of us a better shots that the new crop showing up with there semi auto wonder gun. Our craft demands more ridig attention to detail and our arms are more challanging.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Um... wow... sounds like an impressive bunch of people.

Guessing proof reading and grammar were overlooked and aren't included in that "ridig" attention to detail.

What a condescending jackass.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Verbal Kint

[strickj]

Old man set in his ways!

Id tell him to shove it up his old upwardpointingass,but thats just me,and I'm just an Ahole

[Guest db99wj]

This morning, I had a reply from the acting VP of OHGC regarding my inquiry. I shall repost it here for the benefit of all.

Wow. From someone that has not a vested interest, never been there, don't know any of the parties involved other than internet correspondence, however, it is hard to understand the reasoning that is being used.

retracted due to the sensitivity of the issue.

Edited October 21, 2008 by db99wj

[TGO David]

My reply...

I see that you've read some of the comments on TGO about the way some of the guests of OHGC members were treated by the muzzle-loading group. I don't endorse referring to anyone as a nazi as that term carries a heftily negative connotation. I noted the term "fudd" being used and can only surmise that it is similar in meaning to "fuddy duddy" which isn't quite as bad as nazi but not respectful of those of a senior age either. Hopefully you acknowledge that I control what someone thinks of someone else about as much as you do. And while I don't endorse such comments, I do recognize the individual's freedom to harbor such sentiments if they so desire.

That being said, I'd really like the opportunity to sit down with you and Wayne sometime over coffee, perhaps with some of our group's OHGC members who were also with us on Sunday, and discuss some concerns that I both noticed directly and some that were relayed to me after the fact. We've enjoyed a pleasant synergy with OHGC and I would love to see that continue well into the future of both organizations.

Email me if you would be willing to meet sometime at your convenience. Coffee is on me.

[TGO David]

Um... wow... sounds like an impressive bunch of people.

Guessing proof reading and grammar were overlooked and aren't included in that "ridig" attention to detail.

What a condescending jackass.

Old man set in his ways!

Id tell him to shove it up his old upwardpointingass,but thats just me,and I'm just an Ahole

Wow. From someone that has not a vested interest, never been there, don't know any of the parties involved other than internet correspondence, I can say is

Guys, let's remain as respectful as possible. Marshall is a former OHGC president and is the sitting-VP right now in light of the fact that their former VP recently resigned his post.

Marshall was on the scene on Sunday and was the calmer, more even-keeled voice during the situation that resulted in Dan being ejected from the range. I believe that it's likely that Marshall may be the reason why we were not all ejected following that incident, given his calm demeanor.

I'd welcome the opportunity to sit down and talk casually with him, OHGC's president and any of the OHGC / TGO members who were present on Sunday to review the situation as a whole (including the treatment we received from their Range Officer "George") as well as the full-auto firing incident. I hope that we can maintain a mutually beneficial relationship between the two groups, despite the fact that George flatly told me that our guest fees weren't wanted if we were going to bring "people like that" with us.

And I still maintain that their idea of transporting a rifle with the muzzle in the air is incredibly unsafe in comparison to Positon SUL. It is the old way of doing things and gives no credence to a more progressive thought process regarding carbine safety.

[TripleDigitRide]

I vote for creating a friendship with Gallatin Gun Club.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

It is the old way of doing things and gives no credence to a more progressive thought process regarding carbine safety.

That's because...

Our craft demands more ridig attention to detail and our arms are more challanging.

[Guest db99wj]

Guys, let's remain as respectful as possible. Marshall is a former OHGC president and is the sitting-VP right now in light of the fact that their former VP recently resigned his post.

Marshall was on the scene on Sunday and was the calmer, more even-keeled voice during the situation that resulted in Dan being ejected from the range. I believe that it's likely that Marshall may be the reason why we were not all ejected following that incident, given his calm demeanor.

I'd welcome the opportunity to sit down and talk casually with him, OHGC's president and any of the OHGC / TGO members who were present on Sunday to review the situation as a whole (including the treatment we received from their Range Officer "George") as well as the full-auto firing incident. I hope that we can maintain a mutually beneficial relationship between the two groups, despite the fact that George flatly told me that our guest fees weren't wanted if we were going to bring "people like that" with us.

And I still maintain that their idea of transporting a rifle with the muzzle in the air is incredibly unsafe in comparison to Positon SUL. It is the old way of doing things and gives no credence to a more progressive thought process regarding carbine safety.

I retracted my pic and added to my comment above. I will still say as an uninvolved observer, that the way the TGO group was treated and made to feel during the shoot doesn't seem to be fair treatment of members and that there was nothing you could have done to make the situation better with the RO.

[TGO David]

I retracted my pic and added to my comment above. I will still say as an uninvolved observer, that the way the TGO group was treated and made to feel during the shoot doesn't seem to be fair treatment of members and that there was nothing you could have done to make the situation better with the RO.

I would agree with that statement.

[molonlabetn]

If it's a question of abiding by their (flawed) rules, or parting company... I think the choice is clear.

They are under no obligation to listen to reason, and I have no desire to give it to those who apparently have such a low opinion of others'.

Did somebody say Gallatin Gun Club?

[TGO David]

I would welcome an alliance with GGC if such a thing is possible. But I would also have to remind everyone that any time we are on someone else's property, their rules are the law of the land. Wherever we shoot, we must be respectful of the rules otherwise we risk leaving a bad impression of TGO.

That being said, respect is a two way street so it will be expected of the hosting organization to be courteous and fair to our members as well. That is the crux of the problem from this past Sunday as far as I am concerned.

[TGO David]

Our craft demands more ridig attention to detail and our arms are more challanging.

To his defense, I see where he was headed with that statement. I've shot black powder before and it is more challenging in a hunting or combat (Revolutionary War, Civil War) setting because you seriously have to make every shot count. There is no rapid follow-up, so if you miss your shot, you have a relatively large window of opportunity while reloading during which your quarry can escape or your adversary can shoot back. As for attention to detail, unless you reload your own ammo, you're not paying as much attention to powder load on the firing line as the muzzle loader is.

So yes, he has a point albeit one that was being made rather derisively at the expense of the mil-spec, modern arms shooter. Definitely not an attitude becoming the Vice President of a shooting club and not something I'd want my elected or appointed leadership saying about other members of the shooting community. Considering that OHGC presently has a flyer that they want members to download and distribute to attract new membership, this is not the sort of comment that helps an outreach campaign.

It seems to me that there is a deep divide among the membership of OHGC. On one hand, you have the primitive arms enthusiast who enjoys his "craft" and prefers the slower pace and simpler design of his firearm. I can respect that.

On the other hand, you have the modern arms enthusiast who either enjoys the practical / tactical aspects of his firearm or maybe just fell in love with the smell of cordite back in boot camp. I can respect that too.

But these two factions appear to be opposed to one another for some reason rather than finding a common bond in the fact that we're all firearms enthusiasts and that we're all out there doing something that we truly love. Rather than being snide and closed-minded toward one another, it would be much better if both camps would treat each other with mutual respect.

*shrugs sadly*

PS: For what it's worth, I copied this comment over there. Sometimes the leadership needs to be taken to task for their actions. God knows I've had it done to me here on TGO plenty of times.