ATF plans to display Waco Models

[Chucktshoes]

You've got to be shitting me. Apparently the sick bastards are still proud of roasting dozens of people, including 20 children, alive. I doubt there will be any mention that it all could have been avoided were the ATF not in need of a splashy show to secure their funding. [URL]http://blog.chron.com/narcoconfidential/2014/09/atf-houston-to-unveil-model-re-creation-of-controversial-waco-standoff/#26525101=2[/URL]

[Omega]

You've got to be ####ting me. Apparently the sick bastards are still proud of roasting dozens of people, including 20 children, alive.

I doubt there will be any mention that it all could have been avoided were the ATF not in need of a splashy show to secure their funding.
http://blog.chron.com/narcoconfidential/2014/09/atf-houston-to-unveil-model-re-creation-of-controversial-waco-standoff/#26525101=2

Wasn't the fire started by the branch guys?

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name="Omega" post="1188832" timestamp="1410448846"]Wasn't the fire started by the branch guys?[/quote] No. The gas canisters used by the ATF started the fires.

[Omega]

Quote From: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html

 

"Who started the fire that erupted a little more than six hours after the FBI began inserting the tear gas on April 19?

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

What caused the death of more than 80 Branch Davidians inside the compound on April 19?

Medical examiners, Dr. Nizam Peerwani and Dr. Rodney Crow, have told FRONTLINE that many of them died from asphyxiation when the intense fire raced through the compound. Others, particularly women and children who huddled under wet blankets in a concrete chamber, were fatally injured when debris collapsed on them during the fire, the officials said. Still others were shot to death, suicide or homicide victims in apparent mercy killings, they said. Both the coroners and some FBI sources have told FRONTLINE that the pattern of most of the bodies was not consistent with a theory of mass suicide."

[E4 No More]

Regardless of who actually started the fire, the situation came about due to BATF trapping them by having an "Informant" sell them a shotgun slightly under 16 inches.

[Hershmeister]

[quote name="SWJewellTN" post="1188835" timestamp="1410449838"]Regardless of who actually started the fire, the situation came about due to BATF trapping them by having an "Informant" sell them a shotgun slightly under 16 inches.[/quote] They should have a scale model of the shotty there too

[56FordGuy]

I'm still trying to "get" this. Two days before 9-11, a day when Americans mourn the largest scale terrorist assault on US soil in recent history, the most dangerous terrorist group in the country declares they are putting up a monument to celebrate their bloodiest, most heinous operation in history. Welcome to America?

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name="SWJewellTN" post="1188835" timestamp="1410449838"]Regardless of who actually started the fire, the situation came about due to BATF trapping them by having an "Informant" sell them a shotgun slightly under 16 inches.[/quote] That was Randy Weaver @ Ruby Ridge.

[JAB]

Regardless of who actually started the fire, the situation came about due to BATF trapping them by having an "Informant" sell them a shotgun slightly under 16 inches.

 

I thought it was the Ruby Ridge incident that was started by a shotgun that was just under 18 inches (which is the legal length for a shotgun and 16 is for rifles, right?)  Or were both FBI/Fed screw-ups started by similar things?

 

What always got me is that I think David Koresh probably needed to be arrested, etc.  However, he apparently went jogging outside the complex on a daily basis.  He could have been easily and quietly arrested while on one of those jogs.  I guess, however, that doing so wouldn't have allowed federal authorities to flex their muscles and 'make an example' out of any group that chose to live other than the way the Feds thought they should be living.

[JAB]

Quote From: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html

 

"Who started the fire that erupted a little more than six hours after the FBI began inserting the tear gas on April 19?

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

What caused the death of more than 80 Branch Davidians inside the compound on April 19?

Medical examiners, Dr. Nizam Peerwani and Dr. Rodney Crow, have told FRONTLINE that many of them died from asphyxiation when the intense fire raced through the compound. Others, particularly women and children who huddled under wet blankets in a concrete chamber, were fatally injured when debris collapsed on them during the fire, the officials said. Still others were shot to death, suicide or homicide victims in apparent mercy killings, they said. Both the coroners and some FBI sources have told FRONTLINE that the pattern of most of the bodies was not consistent with a theory of mass suicide."

 

So, officials such as arson investigators and medical examiners supported the version of events that was put forth by the officials.  Not surprising, really.

 

I will say that I saw an interview with one of the surviving Branch Davidians in which he claimed that Koresh and a few of his most trusted followers had, indeed, formulated and carried out a plan to set the fire, themselves.  Who knows, though, if he was telling the truth or if he was fabricating the story for some interest of his own?

 

Either way, the situation would never have gotten where it did if the feds hadn't botched the whole operation, probably out of a desire to get some press time.

[56FordGuy]

[quote name="JAB" post="1188849" timestamp="1410451848"]What always got me is that I think David Koresh probably needed to be arrested, etc. However, he apparently went jogging outside the complex on a daily basis. He could have been easily and quietly arrested while on one of those jogs. I guess, however, that doing so wouldn't have allowed federal authorities to flex their muscles and 'make an example' out of any group that chose to live other than the way the Feds thought they should be living.[/quote] Koresh was accused of failing to properly register a fully automatic weapon by having illegal "conversion kits" to make ARs automatic. The "conversion kits" were nothing more than spare parts kits not unlike what a lot of us may have today. Nothing automatic about them. In the days/ weeks leading up the the raid, Koresh regularly went into town, dined at a local restaurant, and even invited the ATF officers out. He had always willingly complied with local LEO, and there was no reason to believe he would not comply with the ATF. However, just as you said the ATF was in a spot because the future funding of their organization was being debated in Congress at the time. They needed a show, they needed to "prove" their necessity. Hell, they even nicknamed the raid "showtime" and broke a laundry list of laws during the execution of the raid before murdering innocent people.

[Omega]

I'm still trying to "get" this. Two days before 9-11, a day when Americans mourn the largest scale terrorist assault on US soil in recent history, the most dangerous terrorist group in the country declares they are putting up a monument to celebrate their bloodiest, most heinous operation in history. Welcome to America?

Timing may suck, but I don't think its a celebratory monument.  It sounds more like an informational type setup.  I think no matter where you stand on this, it is important to study it to try and develop ways to minimize loss of life on both sides.

 

Edit for speeling.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Omega

[bersaguy]

Lets face reality. It has come down to a point that we as a free nation either live by the rules laid down by the Gestapo type Law Enforcement agencies of the Federal Government or they will kill you and everyone connected to you with little disregard to human lives of any age. Waco and Ruby Ridge are just a couple examples to let us know what they will do to any of us who does not live by Gestapo Rules. It was my understanding that the group of people in Waco never caused any issues with anyone in or around Waco and had it not been for the Government Gestapo's the people in Waco had no issues with the inpoundment or people living in it....................jmho

[tnguy]

 I think no matter where you stand on this, it is important to study it to try and develop ways to minimize loss of life on both sides.

 

 

 

I'm guessing that's about 50% of the intention. They're only concerned about one side.

 

There's some speculation that Waco was largely a show (as mentioned above) to give themselves a little glory after the mess that was Ruby Ridge. And let's not forget that it was claimed as motivation by McVeigh in doing what he did. (Not that I'm claiming it's any kind of vindication before anyone goes off half-cocked).

 

I guess it's almost understandable. It's not like the ATF has done much noteworthy since. Mostly low-level constitutional violations.

[Omega]

Lets face reality. It has come down to a point that we as a free nation either live by the rules laid down by the Gestapo type Law Enforcement agencies of the Federal Government or they will kill you and everyone connected to you with little disregard to human lives of any age. Waco and Ruby Ridge are just a couple examples to let us know what they will do to any of us who does not live by Gestapo Rules. It was my understanding that the group of people in Waco never caused any issues with anyone in or around Waco and had it not been for the Government Gestapo's the people in Waco had no issues with the inpoundment or people living in it....................jmho

The thing is this; If you are a law abiding citizen of the US, you follow the law whether you agree with it or not or suffer the consequences.  If you do not like the law, work to get it changed.  If you choose to break the law then you accept responsibility for what happens when the law gets enforced.  I don't purport to follow every law, but I accept the traffic ticket when I get pulled over speeding or I forget my seat belt.  If someone kills one of my kids, I'll accept whatever punishment comes from the retribution I deal out, period. 

[56FordGuy]

Martin Luther King, Jr.- "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

[monkeylizard]

Exactly the quote I was thinking of. :up:

[E4 No More]

That was Randy Weaver @ Ruby Ridge.

Not according to the "documentary" that I saw just a few months ago, but whatever. I wasn't there and neither was anyone else on this forum. I typed 16" above by mistake. Anyways, if the government is involved you can bet it's a lie.

[JAB]

Koresh was accused of failing to properly register a fully automatic weapon by having illegal "conversion kits" to make ARs automatic. The "conversion kits" were nothing more than spare parts kits not unlike what a lot of us may have today. Nothing automatic about them. In the days/ weeks leading up the the raid, Koresh regularly went into town, dined at a local restaurant, and even invited the ATF officers out. He had always willingly complied with local LEO, and there was no reason to believe he would not comply with the ATF. However, just as you said the ATF was in a spot because the future funding of their organization was being debated in Congress at the time. They needed a show, they needed to "prove" their necessity. Hell, they even nicknamed the raid "showtime" and broke a laundry list of laws during the execution of the raid before murdering innocent people.

 

Koresh was also, apparently, a pretty sick puppy.  Even according to some former Branch Davidian members, he declared that every female member of the group was 'his' to have sex with whenever he wanted - including having sex with girls in the group that were as young as 12.  He also believed that he was the Messiah, among other things.  This guy was a real Jim Jones kind of character and, if the things that were reported about him were correct, needed to go down.

 

I remember so-called 'weapons charges' against him but for some reason I also seem to recall (keeping in mind how long ago this was and that I was in college at the time so I had other things on my mind) that there were tax evasion charges, as well (hey, it was good enough for Capone.)  I honestly never felt like Koresh was just a harmless eccentric that should have been left alone.  I did feel like the Feds make a huge mess and that they should have just arrested him when he was in town rather than opting for the spectacle of laying siege to the compound.

 

As an aside, I had a class with Dr. Bass the semester after all that happened which was pretty much an intro to forensic anthropology.  On the first day of class, he was talking about how the forensic anthropologist who had been called in to work the aftermath (then the head anthropologist at the Smithsonian one of Dr. Bass' former students) had called Bass to come and assist as he knew that burned remains were a specialty of Bass'.  Dr. Bass went on to say that he had seen several tabloid covers claiming that Koresh was still alive, had escaped and so on.  His comment on that was that he - Bass - had identified Koresh, himself to a degree that he would be willing to testify as to the identity in court.  He then said, "I personally carried what was left of David Koresh out of there in a shoebox.  David Koresh is not still alive."

Edited September 11, 2014 by JAB

[JPR1959]

You might want to watch this documentary on Waco.  It will open your eyes, if it's the one I remember seeing on TV.

 

http://youtu.be/-4scgRAJxWc

[Ted S.]

Martin Luther King, Jr.- "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

 

Perfect.

[bersaguy]

Oh believe me David Koresh was a Physio and definitely needed to be dealt with. Like several others said. There was many much easier opportunities to take him down without killing innocent women and children. To me that was just totally reckless wantin of total disrespect for human life by the FBI. I remember it quite well and when the news medias were asking FBI agents prior to the all out assault what the charges were no two FBI agents gave the same answer on charges. I think I was wondering back then I thought at the time just how many charges did they really have and how many were being made up on the run. I just feel bad knowing that we have people in the FBI with zero accountability for loss of innocent lives like it is an every day occurrence.................jmho

[JayC]

Wrong killings by the government, that would be the Ruby Ridge incident a year earlier.

 

Regardless of who actually started the fire, the situation came about due to BATF trapping them by having an "Informant" sell them a shotgun slightly under 16 inches.

 

[56FordGuy]

Koresh was also, apparently, a pretty sick puppy.  Even according to some former Branch Davidian members, he declared that every female member of the group was 'his' to have sex with whenever he wanted - including having sex with girls in the group that were as young as 12.  He also believed that he was the Messiah, among other things.  This guy was a real Jim Jones kind of character and, if the things that were reported about him were correct, needed to go down.

 

I remember so-called 'weapons charges' against him but for some reason I also seem to recall (keeping in mind how long ago this was and that I was in college at the time so I had other things on my mind) that there were tax evasion charges, as well (hey, it was good enough for Capone.)  I honestly never felt like Koresh was just a harmless eccentric that should have been left alone.  I did feel like the Feds make a huge mess and that they should have just arrested him when he was in town rather than opting for the spectacle of laying siege to the compound.

 

 

I don't want to defend David Koresh, but we have to focus on the law. If a person wants to claim they're the Messiah, that is not illegal. If people choose to follow that person, that is also not illegal. If consenting adults want to be deemed "wives" of someone and engage in intercourse, that is also not a violation of the law. Weird? Yes. Creepy? Yup. A crime? No. 

 

With regard to the child sex abuse allegations, there are two factors. Factor one, it is not the role of the federal government (much less the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) to investigate such matters. It falls into the hands of local and state law enforcement. 

 

Factor Two is what actually happened; At the end of February, 1992 an investigation was opened by the State of Texas Child Protective Services. The affidavit by ex-Davidian Jeannine Bunds stated that Koresh had sex with girls as young as 11 years old, and had fathered children with girls as young as 12. 

 

That investigation was closed in April 1992. The department's summary stated "None of the allegations could be verified. The children denied being abused in any way by adults in the compound. They denied knowledge of any other children being abused. The adults consistently denied participation in or knowledge of any abuse of children. Examinations of the children produced no indication of current or previous injuries." (Cite: Wattenburg. 'Gunning for Karesh', p. 37)

 

I can't say either way what was or wasn't happening in the Branch Davidian compound, but the fact is the State of Texas did not find any evidence of abuse. 

 

 

The warrant brought against Koresh that resulted in the massacre was for having and manufacturing machine guns without paying the $200 tax; a tax law violation. 

 

 

The siege at Waco is a very interesting moment in American history and one that is not talked about much; likely because the facts of the situation reflect very poorly on the government. Multiple books, articles, and films have been made about it. Thanks to FOIA, we have access to a lot of information now and numerous people have done a good job of breaking it down. There are so many different ways that this operation was botched from the word go that we could sit here all night discussing it and barely scratch the surface.

 

For anyone who wants to start digging into what really happened, I highly recommend picking up the book "No More Wacos" by David Kopel and Paul Blackman. It's a fair look at what happened, backed up with pages upon pages of cites including information from Senate hearings and other documents.  

Edited September 12, 2014 by 56FordGuy

[Dustbuster]

56 ford is on the money. The other part is there was a claim that a complaint made that kids from the compound were observed playing on the dangerous busy highway. I'm here to tell u, I've been to the compound. There is no traffic in that part of Waco. It sent a chill through my body to see burned kiddie bikes and branch davidians still holding services in a makeshift tent.....burned plastic dollies and other kids items. The whole op was complete bullshit. And always will be. Prayers for the children who died a painful death on that fateful day...