Shooting & Handcuffs

[Twin]

So after watching this video : http://monderno.com/monderno/need-gun-go-shopping/  a couple questions popped into my mind.

 

1 - Would, or should you, fire into the screaming mob?

2 - Or would/should you run into the store and hide behind the dogfood?

3 - And, if you hand handcuffs with you, and managed to incapacitate one of them, would you be charged for kidnapping once the police got there?

[DaveTN]

1 - Would, or should you, fire into the screaming mob?

No, you should shoot the people attacking you.

3 - And, if you hand handcuffs with you, and managed to incapacitate one of them, would you be charged for kidnapping once the police got there?

No.

[Twin]

Well, when you have 30 people running towards you, which one is the attacker?

 

No, you should shoot the people attacking you.
No.

[Jamie Jackson]

Well, when you have 30 people running towards you, which one is the attacker?

 

 

Then you have found yourself in one hell of a mess.

 

 

Run like the devil is after you...it is... and find cover fast...

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Why exactly are we carrying handcuffs? 

 

As "intuitive" it might seem to put someone in handcuffs, (I mean really just apply to wrists and close right?)  there is A LOT that can go wrong when you go place yourself within arms reach of someone.

 

Generally speaking police would like to have 2 people there when cuffing someone. One is the cuffer and one is the cover man.  So now what are you doing with your gun? Holstering it? OK. So you now take your gun out of play in order to close with and apply cuffs to someone who was previously trying to cripple or kill you? Really?

 

Frankly , as a civilian if you can get away, that is plan A...plan B... and C. We are not empowered to arrest people. We either avoid 'em, run 'em off, or damage them to the point that they stop what they are doing.   You have no duty to detain people and if you have not had any practice and training in detaining people that can go very badly very quickly if they feign compliance long enough to get you within arms reach. And you applying hand cuffs requires you to get within less than arms reach......

 

There is a reason that cops spend a fair amount of time practicing cuffing people in the academy. Cuffing a resisting adversary by yourself is a lot different than cuffing a compliant and eager girlfriend.....

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Omega]

Well, when you have 30 people running towards you, which one is the attacker?

The closest one, then the next closest until the pursuit stops.
 

Then you have found yourself in one hell of a mess.
 
 
Run like the devil is after you...it is... and find cover fast...

I am a proponent that you should not run away unless you are sure they are much slower. Running just makes it more difficult to get a good bead on a pursuer and may lead you to trip and drop your weapon.

[broox]

This is a really personal issue, except for the handcuffs:NO. When I am out, I usually have some of my three children with me, ages 1, 3, and 5.  When I think about being in a situation like this with my kids, I am very hesitant to plan on drawing my handgun.  With all of these aggressors surrounding me, it could go south real fast.  I am trying my best to be mentally alert now more than ever, but getting the kids in and out of the car at the grocery store is sometimes more taxing than a Mozambique drill.  I hope and pray that I, as well as everyone reading this, never has to make this decision.

[TMF]

Without a doubt, if you shoot someone, regardless of justification, if you then handcuff them with the wannabe cop handcuffs you're carrying around, you WILL be explaining it to a jury and they will toss you in jail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tnguy]

Probably easier to be carrying cable ties anyway (though they carry their own risk)

[mikegideon]

Well, when you have 30 people running towards you, which one is the attacker?

 

The one with the hole in his chest.

[TMF]

Probably easier to be carrying cable ties anyway (though they carry their own risk)

I would love to see that conversation with the detectives in the interrogation room. Might as well carry a bottle of astroglide to make the new bunk arrangements less uncomfortable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Twin]

Well, if one fired into the mob, I can just see them saying that they "were really excited about the toaster sale Kroger had going, and then this evil man starts shooting us all".

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Yeah....cops tend to take a dim view of self appointed "citizen police"...... carrying a gun to defend yourself is one thing....carrying handcuffs or zip ties makes you look like either a cop wannabe or a sexual predator.....and I'd damn sure make sure I didn't have any gloves, duct tape, a hatchet, saw or a shovel in my car if I were going to carry cuffs on my person.....just sayin'....

[Pain103]

 You could carry restraints and even apply them to someone as a citizens arrest but why? If you using or have used deadly force I would assume you would want to remain covering them. You most certainly don't restrain someone while your firearm is out. That is why if I take someone at gun point they remain there until a second officer arrives to secure them. I wouldn't want to add steps in an already stressful situation like reholstering, removing handcuffs, and properly applying them while some fine motor skills are out the window.

[Jamie Jackson]

 
I am a proponent that you should not run away unless you are sure they are much slower. Running just makes it more difficult to get a good bead on a pursuer and may lead you to trip and drop your weapon.

 

 

I probably shouldn't have posted as the missus was herding me out the door...

 

That cover may only be a few steps away...I'm not talking about running while firing wildly over my shoulder. :cool:

 

 

Yes, I would choose to help someone obviously is danger. Yes I would have to be able to absolutely identify that was in fact the situation.

 

No way I would ever try and handcuff someone I just shot.It's not uncommon for a person that's been shot to lose consciousness as their blood pressure drops, only to regain consciousness as they become supine.

We were trained to approach a gunshot wound patient in pairs...one person secures the hands while the other.searches for and removes weapons...hopefully while law enforcement covers the individual at gunpoint.

It's a good idea to remove weapons, even if it's a known "friendly" , because if they wake up the last thing they will probably recall is the fight and quite possibly re-engage...not a good situation to be in.

 

So, if it's a badguy I was just forced to shoot, I would stay behind cover while covering them and wait for the posse to arrive..

 

Lot's of badguys? I'd be happy to have that cover, and lots of bullets...

 

Cover and distance are your friends.

[Omega]

Yeah....cops tend to take a dim view of self appointed "citizen police"...... carrying a gun to defend yourself is one thing....carrying handcuffs or zip ties makes you look like either a cop wannabe or a sexual predator.....and I'd damn sure make sure I didn't have any gloves, duct tape, a hatchet, saw or a shovel in my car if I were going to carry cuffs on my person.....just sayin'....

Well shoot, any prosecutor would absolutely be able to argue that I had a "kit" in my truck if I was ever accused of any type of crime being theft, murder or kidnapping. I currently carry zip ties (small to large), tape, a tarp, hack saw, knives, and even a set of bolt cutters along with other suspicious tools in my truck.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Well shoot, any prosecutor would absolutely be able to argue that I had a "kit" in my truck if I was ever accused of any type of crime being theft, murder or kidnapping. I currently carry zip ties (small to large), tape, a tarp, hack saw, knives, and even a set of bolt cutters along with other suspicious tools in my truck.

Then I'd strongly suggest you not run around handcuffing people...... ;)

[Clod Stomper]

Yeah....cops tend to take a dim view of self appointed "citizen police"...... carrying a gun to defend yourself is one thing....carrying handcuffs or zip ties makes you look like either a cop wannabe or a sexual predator.....and I'd damn sure make sure I didn't have any gloves, duct tape, a hatchet, saw or a shovel in my car if I were going to carry cuffs on my person.....just sayin'....

 

Actually, I have most of those things in my truck.  Because I use them frequently.  No handcuffs, though.

 

I'm not going to worry with cuffs.  A bullet in each knee does the same thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'M KIDDING,  I'M KIDDING!  

[Jonnin]

So after watching this video : http://monderno.com/monderno/need-gun-go-shopping/  a couple questions popped into my mind.

 

1 - Would, or should you, fire into the screaming mob?

2 - Or would/should you run into the store and hide behind the dogfood?

3 - And, if you hand handcuffs with you, and managed to incapacitate one of them, would you be charged for kidnapping once the police got there?

 

1) No, you don't fire into groups of people at random.  If you are being assaulted, you stop the threat.  If someone else is being assaulted *AND* YOU think they are in danger of serious harm (IE, its not just a shoving match or old school fist fight but one person is down and not even fighting back, the other(s) pounding on the victim as in the case here) you stop the attack.

 

2) Possibly.  It depends on what is actually going on.  There is a time to fight and a time to run.  Can't say without being there.

 

3) its called a citizen's arrest.  But you might need to explain WHY you have handcuffs at all.  

[Omega]

Then I'd strongly suggest you not run around handcuffing people...... ;)

I try not to, I have a few flex cuffs left but they are a one time use type so have, thankfully, not had to use any in the US.  My other cuffs have fuzzy covers and left at home :devil:  

[JayC]

While I agree with you it's almost never a good idea...  

 

The truth is we are empowered by state law to make arrests in most crimes that a police officer can...  difference being in most cases for minor crimes we must witness the crime being committed, and we don't have qualified immunity...

 

But, if you happen upon a passed out drunk that broke into your house, and feel more comfortable nothing in TN law is stopping you from slapping some handcuff on him...

 

But, I agree common sense says keep your distance, and keep your gun on the possible threat until the police arrive and can help you out.

 

Why exactly are we carrying handcuffs? 

 

As "intuitive" it might seem to put someone in handcuffs, (I mean really just apply to wrists and close right?)  there is A LOT that can go wrong when you go place yourself within arms reach of someone.

 

Generally speaking police would like to have 2 people there when cuffing someone. One is the cuffer and one is the cover man.  So now what are you doing with your gun? Holstering it? OK. So you now take your gun out of play in order to close with and apply cuffs to someone who was previously trying to cripple or kill you? Really?

 

Frankly , as a civilian if you can get away, that is plan A...plan B... and C. We are not empowered to arrest people. We either avoid 'em, run 'em off, or damage them to the point that they stop what they are doing.   You have no duty to detain people and if you have not had any practice and training in detaining people that can go very badly very quickly if they feign compliance long enough to get you within arms reach. And you applying hand cuffs requires you to get within less than arms reach......

 

There is a reason that cops spend a fair amount of time practicing cuffing people in the academy. Cuffing a resisting adversary by yourself is a lot different than cuffing a compliant and eager girlfriend.....

 

[chances R]

I typically carry small pieces of rope, between my teeth, do a calf-rope and try and get it done within 6 seconds.

[Guest boutwell]

The video you posted is the reason I am now a gun owner and signed up for the carry class. I work about 10 minutes from that Kroger and my wife shops at stores in the attached shopping center (she does not shop there anymore). There have been several more "mob" incidents in Memphis since then - mostly during or after high school football games. The [sorry excuse for a] mayor is even pushing to get rid of Friday night football now.

 

I did a brief look into what my options would be if I were in that scenario and carrying and what I came up with is that I simply can't let me or my family fall into any circumstance where that could happen.

 

If it keeps happening, there will be some kids getting shot. The mobs have just not attacked the right people yet. That is when the story of what a mess Memphis really is will break.

 

I moved out of Memphis to Arlington. I didn't move far enough.

Edited October 7, 2014 by boutwell