Signed Car Registration?

[macville]

So I had a friend post on facebook last night that he was pulled over by a KCSO Deputy for a headlight out. He was coming back from the auto parts store with the replacement headlight, so nothing happened on that front. However, the deputy told that his car registration was supposed to be signed. I even double checked my registration and no where does it say it has to be signed or even have a place for a signature. Where the crap does this kinda things come from in law enforcement officers? Is this something that should be reported to the sheriff so the deputy can actually be forced to sit down and learn the law?

[cannoncocker]

Lower right, above County Clerk's Name.  Block says "Registrant sign here".

[macville]

You sure about that.... Here is a scan I just did of my vehicle registration and no where does it have a place to sign. Are you thinking of the Title and not the registration?

 

[tnhawk]

The Vehicle registration in Shelby County has a place for signature in the lower right corner, but I've never sign it in the past.  Glad I saw this as it's time for me to send my renewal.

[macville]

So I looked up TN code because I believe the state has preemption for issues like this. TN 55-4-108 is the only thing that talks about signing a registration...and there's nothing actually in the law, it's just in the headline, "Signing registration certificate - Carried in vehicle or on driver's person - Display - Exemption" 

 

(a)  Every certificate of registration shall at all times be carried in the vehicle to which it refers or shall be carried by the person driving, or in control of the vehicle, who shall display the certificate upon demand of any officer or employee of the department. The owner may, in order to ensure its safekeeping, provide a duplicate or facsimile of the certificate of registration to be kept in the vehicle for display by any person who may legally operate the vehicle under the owner's registration.

(b)  The provision of subsection (a) requiring that a certificate of registration be carried in the vehicle to which it refers, or by the person driving the vehicle, shall not apply when the certificate of registration is used for the purpose of making application for renewal of registration or upon a transfer of the vehicle.

(c)  A violation of this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

 

[Acts 1951, ch. 70, § 44 (Williams, § 5538.144); Acts 1961, ch. 292, § 1; 1972, ch. 540, § 10; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), § 59-408; Acts 2003, ch. 2, § 1.]  

 

 

 

I think the law may used to require it, but was changed in 2003 or earlier and the headline has never been changed.

[DaveTN]

Where the crap does this kinda things come from in law enforcement officers? Is this something that should be reported to the sheriff so the deputy can actually be forced to sit down and learn the law?

So I looked up TN code because I believe the state has preemption for issues like this. TN 55-4-108 is the only thing that talks about signing a registration...and there's nothing actually in the law, it's just in the headline, "Signing registration certificate - Carried in vehicle or on driver's person - Display - Exemption" 
 
I think the law may used to require it, but was changed in 2003 or earlier and the headline has never been changed.

So now that you found out you don’t know for sure maybe you see where it came from. Or it could just be a made up BS Facebook story that never happened.

[cannoncocker]

Looks like a new registration system went into effect in August.  Registration renewal forms are printed "on demand" rather than mailed ahead of time.  License plate decals are printed with the registration and now include the vehicle plate number on the decal.  No place for registrant signature.  How about that.

 

I

[macville]

So now that you found out you don’t know for sure maybe you see where it came from. Or it could just be a made up BS Facebook story that never happened.

 

No, it happened to a buddy of mine and I am sure it happened. Why they are trying to enforce either a law that never was, or has been off the books for over 10 years is what concerns me. I firmly believe the LEO's should be as knowledgable as a lawyer if they are going to enforce the law, but evidently that's not really the case. But law enforcement seems to have their priority messed up these days when one of my friends, one of the owners of a local food chain here in Knoxville, came on to facebook to complain about how KPD didn't have the man power to really investigate the armed robbery that happened at one of their locations last month and I said that was strange since they have plenty of cops on the interstate writing tickets... I don't want to be anti law enforcement, but they seem to be more about ticket writing than protecting people these days.

[DaveTN]

I firmly believe the LEO's should be as knowledgable as a lawyer if they are going to enforce the law, but evidently that's not really the case.

Cops don’t go to law school, but many departments give plenty of training. Cops aren’t perfect, they make mistakes; just like lawyers. I can tell you stories of people that went to prison because of their lawyers.

I agree they should know the law. But did he chew yours friends azz out or just make a casual observation that he needed to sign his registration, as he was letting him go with a warning? I really wouldn’t care what a cops opinion on the law is if he isn’t arresting/ticketing me for it.

 

But law enforcement seems to have their priority messed up these days when one of my friends, one of the owners of a local food chain here in Knoxville, came on to facebook to complain about how KPD didn't have the man power to really investigate the armed robbery that happened at one of their locations last month and I said that was strange since they have plenty of cops on the interstate writing tickets... I don't want to be anti law enforcement, but they seem to be more about ticket writing than protecting people these days.

Did KPD not respond to the armed robbery? Are they not keeping your friend informed of the investigation? What is his complaint? (Other than thinking if they hadn’t been doing their other duties they would have been there and stopped the robber)

Does KPD handle accidents on the interstate? If they don’t you should make a complaint about that. They have no business writing tickets if it’s not their area of responsibility.

However...I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Your Chief of Police is responsible for using his resources to prevent crime. If you think your chances of getting injured or killed by an armed robber are greater than they are of being injured or killed by a traffic offender; you have a valid complaint. Do your research; if you find that is true you might want to think about moving.

However...I have walked in their shoes, I am pro law enforcement and proud of it and the job most of them do.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I call BS on ANY LE agency not investigating an armed robbery. Especially an agency as large as KPD or KCSO.

How about a link to his post about not having a robbery investigated on FB?

 

LE are not required to know every law but they should know where to reference the laws. Laws do change and unless it is a major change most times it goes unknown by most officers. Being updated on law changes is an administration issue not an officer issue. Law changes should be part of annual training but often times it is not that is unless it is a major change. 

 

BTW, I have serious issues with stories from "My uncle's brother's step son's cousin twice removed". If you friend has an issue with how things were handles tell him to call 865 215 2000 and tell the clerk you want to file a complaint against Officer "his/her name here".

How about a link to his complaint about the traffic stop on FB?

[NextExit]

Just checked mine and noticed there's a box for signature and date.  Now that I've really looked it over, there's a box for insurance policy number.  Maybe I should fill that in. :panic:

[vontar]

hmm, this would be news to me.  I believe I just have the receipt from buying and or renewing tags, along with my insurance.  It has always been what I needed.

[macville]

Cops don’t go to law school, but many departments give plenty of training. Cops aren’t perfect, they make mistakes; just like lawyers. I can tell you stories of people that went to prison because of their lawyers.

I agree they should know the law. But did he chew yours friends azz out or just make a casual observation that he needed to sign his registration, as he was letting him go with a warning? I really wouldn’t care what a cops opinion on the law is if he isn’t arresting/ticketing me for it.

Did KPD not respond to the armed robbery? Are they not keeping your friend informed of the investigation? What is his complaint? (Other than thinking if they hadn’t been doing their other duties they would have been there and stopped the robber)

Does KPD handle accidents on the interstate? If they don’t you should make a complaint about that. They have no business writing tickets if it’s not their area of responsibility.

However...I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Your Chief of Police is responsible for using his resources to prevent crime. If you think your chances of getting injured or killed by an armed robber are greater than they are of being injured or killed by a traffic offender; you have a valid complaint. Do your research; if you find that is true you might want to think about moving.

However...I have walked in their shoes, I am pro law enforcement and proud of it and the job most of them do.

 

 

He gave him two written warnings. The light which I understand, but at the same don't understand as they heading back from the auto parts store with the new lamp. However, a written (which my friend had to sign) warning for a law that doesn't seem to exist I find outrageous. But that's the difference between you and me is that LEO's have an enormous amount of protection against their wrongdoing and that can cost citizens a lot of time and money-either through their own dealings or as a taxpayer when someone sues and the city/county/state has to pay out. Cops shouldn't have opinions on what the law is, they should know what the law is! And honestly, even if it's something that's not necessarily a matter of law, but an opinion about something that someone is doing that is legal that you are giving while in uniform, you shouldn't do that. I believe that is a misuse of authority.

I am not sure KPD really should be handling accidents on the interstate. I think THP should be the main force that handles that. But almost every time I go to downtown Knoxville I see at least KPD on the interstate either looking for someone to pull over or they've got someone pulled over. If they were worried about safety with speeding they would be pulling over the semi's that are going 10mph over instead of the cars as semi's are FAR more dangerous when they speed due to the weight they are pulling (not to mention that the truckers that come through Knoxville tailgate like no other!) And our speed limits aren't even all about the safety aspect as knox and the surrounding counties have a max of 65mph due to the EPA restricting federal highway money unless they do-not because 65 is really safer. It's about money and not safety. Maybe they've convinced themselves that it is, but even places that have super crazy laws like LA have much faster speed limits in city on the interstates.

If it's not about money than why does an on duty Monroe Deputy sit constantly around 50-75 yards out of his jurisdiction on I-75 south? Don't believe me? They sit there so often that even google maps caught one sitting there (look up where washington pike crosses I-75 at the Monroe and Loudon county lines) It's really protecting people by sitting OUTSIDE of their jurisdiction? I don't even know how the speed limit works there as it's 65 in Loudon county, but there is a 70mph sign about 150 yards into the county. My guess is that it changes to 70 at the county line, but the sign is a little further in due to where the bridge is there. So most likely they can't even really catch speeders there that are going enough over the speed limit to make worth stopping them.

As for the armed robbery, I get the sense from my friend that KPD came out and took a report but said, "there's not really much we can do because we don't have the manpower to really investigate. But that seems to be pretty consistent with other friends KPD investigation's into crime. I have the same experience with the KCSO with once never coming out for a call and another time basically not following any of their leads. You might as well not come out and take a report if there is going to be no investigation. Of course, we are living in the state that was just reported hadn't processed something like 2,000 rape kit tests...

And yet they are out giving tickets left and right and there are still accidents (though that is vague to say because we'd really need to see a good breakdown of why accidents happen.) It doesn't matter how many tickets they give out, people are going to speed no matter what. And the issue isn't speeding, it's people doing stupid things (many which happen because a few people DO follow the speed limits) Even though there are plenty of places around the world like Germany which have dynamic speed limits and other traffic control systems that work far better than our standard systems, we don't change to that. Follow the money instead of the safety. Same reason why it's 40mph limit on the 6 lane Veterans Blvd leading to Dollywood (pretty limited access over the 5 miles) and 40mph on the white line crumbling section of Westland drive where I own a house. LEO's love to sit on Veterans and give out tickets because it's an easy speed trap.

Sorry if that seemed kinda rambling.

[macville]

I call BS on ANY LE agency not investigating an armed robbery. Especially an agency as large as KPD or KCSO.

How about a link to his post about not having a robbery investigated on FB?

 

LE are not required to know every law but they should know where to reference the laws. Laws do change and unless it is a major change most times it goes unknown by most officers. Being updated on law changes is an administration issue not an officer issue. Law changes should be part of annual training but often times it is not that is unless it is a major change. 

 

BTW, I have serious issues with stories from "My uncle's brother's step son's cousin twice removed". If you friend has an issue with how things were handles tell him to call 865 215 2000 and tell the clerk you want to file a complaint against Officer "his/her name here".

How about a link to his complaint about the traffic stop on FB?

 

I would post his complaint about the stop, but it's on private on his facebook. I have encouraged him to file a complaint with the KCSO because no one over him may ever know if he doesn't.

[macville]

Here is what my friend posted about their business being robbed. Knowing her I don't think she is exaggerating about the issue.

 

Almost 4 weeks go by and despite numerous phone calls, leads, tips and flat-out telling the police who did it… nothing. It's frustrating to know that an armed robbery, threatening someone with a gun pressed to the temple is so far down the triage list. Our police department doesn't have enough personnel to deal with every-day crimes. Knowing that handling this situation in a timely manner may have saved someone else from being robbed and getting shot {which is what has happened} makes it even more frustrating.

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by macville

[Dolomite_supafly]

Have you friend, that was robbed, to contact KCSO because they have jurisdiction over KPD. And if KCSO does not do what he thinks is fair contact TBI as they are the next jurisdiction above KCSO.

[Garufa]

I renewed my registration a couple of weeks ago (in Knox County) and there is no place to sign it.  Been doing the same for 20 years now and never has a signature been required that I am a aware of.  Even if there was I would not, just like the back of credit and debit cards.

 

Update:  Looking at last year's registration there is a change of address area at the bottom of the document that has a signature box (at the lower right hand corner).  That obviously is for inking in a new address...and signing to it's veracity.  Why that is needed I have no idea but I keep things simple.  If I have a change of address I would get the registration updated...officially.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Garufa

[DaveTN]

............Sorry if that seemed kinda rambling.

I don’t doubt what you say, I just suspect your friend saying an armed robbery at her business was not investigated or that she told them who did it and they did nothing sounds like BS.

I don’t know why a County Deputy would be sitting on the interstate, but I see it all the time in Tennessee and Kentucky. I also see Nashville Metro working accidents on the interstates; so I have to assume they have jurisdiction. In the state I was in the State Police took care of the interstates and we didn’t go on them to bag tickets; we also didn’t work accidents unless we were helping out the State Troopers with traffic or back-up.

You have an administration problem and a DA traffic division problem if you have cops writing tickets out of their jurisdiction, or even out of their patrol area. Make a complaint.

When tickets go to court doesn’t the Officer testify that he had jurisdiction where the offense occurred?

No, I don’t think traffic enforcement is about money. If it was they would lay-off a bunch of cops and buy a bunch more cameras. Do good people get pulled over and ticketed for minor traffic offenses? Of course they do. But they know they are violating the law and being unsafe. Speeding, texting, improper lane usage. When they get caught some whine about it some don’t. When they kill or seriously injure someone they call it an accident instead of recklessness or negligence.

[gregintenn]

 

He gave him two written warnings. The light which I understand, but at the same don't understand as they heading back from the auto parts store with the new lamp. However, a written (which my friend had to sign) warning for a law that doesn't seem to exist I find outrageous. But that's the difference between you and me is that LEO's have an enormous amount of protection against their wrongdoing and that can cost citizens a lot of time and money-either through their own dealings or as a taxpayer when someone sues and the city/county/state has to pay out. Cops shouldn't have opinions on what the law is, they should know what the law is! And honestly, even if it's something that's not necessarily a matter of law, but an opinion about something that someone is doing that is legal that you are giving while in uniform, you shouldn't do that. I believe that is a misuse of authority.

How much money, exactly, did it cost your friend to sign two pieces of paper?

 

Do you know how many laws there are between U.S., Tennessee, and local city and county governments? There's no way any team of legal experts, let alone one low paid local law enforcement officer could be expected to "know the laws". I will agree that if he's in doubt, he should be able to access said law for clarification.

 

Nobody here would accuse me of being pro law enforcement, but you are being a bit ridiculous.

 

 

No, I don’t think traffic enforcement is about money.

How would you explain a "speed trap"? There are definitely areas where speeding tickets are a major source of revenue for a small city or county.

Edited September 7, 2014 by gregintenn

[DaveTN]

How would you explain a "speed trap"? There are definitely areas where speeding tickets are a major source of revenue for a small city or county.

Absolutely, but that doesn’t apply to traffic enforcement as a whole.

[macville]

I don’t doubt what you say, I just suspect your friend saying an armed robbery at her business was not investigated or that she told them who did it and they did nothing sounds like BS.

I don’t know why a County Deputy would be sitting on the interstate, but I see it all the time in Tennessee and Kentucky. I also see Nashville Metro working accidents on the interstates; so I have to assume they have jurisdiction. In the state I was in the State Police took care of the interstates and we didn’t go on them to bag tickets; we also didn’t work accidents unless we were helping out the State Troopers with traffic or back-up.

You have an administration problem and a DA traffic division problem if you have cops writing tickets out of their jurisdiction, or even out of their patrol area. Make a complaint.

When tickets go to court doesn’t the Officer testify that he had jurisdiction where the offense occurred?

No, I don’t think traffic enforcement is about money. If it was they would lay-off a bunch of cops and buy a bunch more cameras. Do good people get pulled over and ticketed for minor traffic offenses? Of course they do. But they know they are violating the law and being unsafe. Speeding, texting, improper lane usage. When they get caught some whine about it some don’t. When they kill or seriously injure someone they call it an accident instead of recklessness or negligence.

 

My dealings with KPD and other people I know who have dealt with them, it does not surprise me one bit. The sad part is KCSO seems to be far better and they still have a ton of issues (can we say the dizzy bat incident among other things)

I don't know exactly what's going on down in Monroe county, I just think there is something wrong when a deputy is sitting 50-75 yards outside the county on the interstate. I am not even sure who to contact because I doubt going to the Monroe sheriff is going to get me an honest answer.

Have you looked at the ticket prices lately? Knoxville speeding tickets are between $116 and $151 depending on the speed over. From what I can find, the avg KPD salary is $46k. If you figure 5 days a week (I have no clue how many days they work) that's 260 paid days a year which equals out $176/day. So in three tickets at that most, the officer's salary and retirement is paid for the day and the rest is gravy. Seems like simple business math that it's very profitable to have quite a few cops running just traffic enforcement. Unlike the red cameras, the city doesn't have to give half the money taken in to the camera company and there are always people speeding, but not always people running red lights.

Once again, speeding by itself is not dangerous as long as the conditions aren't bad (rain/snow/etc.) It's the fact that we have a lot of big trucks and people do crazy things that are FAR more dangerous. If speed was the main factor, like they try to make it, the Germany would be higher in wreaks and fatalities, but they are on average 50% lower on both. Here in knoxville the majority of people on 40/75 are going 7-20 mph over the speed limit. The traffic enforcement hasn't slowed down anyone, everyone just plays the odds of getting caught. So it's not like they are stopping ANYONE from speeding, they are just bringing in money for civil enforcement. It's just interesting how as budgets have squeezed over the last 30 years that civil enforcement has gone way up here...