What is the proper way to privately buy firearms?

[bird333]

Inspired by the 'on/off book thread'.  I am wondering what steps a person should take when they want to buy a handgun privately?

[TrickyNicky]

An appropriately sized pile of money is all you legally need to buy a firearm in TN, there are a few legal fine points, but those are better explained elsewhere in the forum.

Now, to buy one of my guns, you will most likely need to either show me an HCP or sign a bill of sale. That's just me though, I require bills if sale when buying/selling guitars, so it's habit for me. Some people get a bit bent out of shape at the bill of sale idea, that's fine, chocolate and vanilla ice cream both exist for a reason.

[173rdABN]

Well, in Tn, you don't need any paperwork to be filed or anything. Just… buy it… Probably smart to see if that person has a HCP and sign a bill of sale. 

[JayC]

Only big issue you need to worry about when buying (other than condition and function of the firearm) is to make sure it's not stolen...  Selling has a few more pitfalls you need to worry about...  but buying is pretty straight forward.  

 

I'm happy to show my HCP and unless I know the person I'll ask for a bill of sale from them.

[PackinMama]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that to be 100% legal when selling someone a firearm in TN, you need to do two things:

#1 - Ask the buyer if they are legally allowed to own a firearm in the state of Tennessee and/or if they are a convicted felon

#2 - Ask them if they are a resident of Tennessee

 

Legally, you do not have to actually see their DL or HCP, just ask them if they are a resident of TN.....but just to cya,  it's a good idea to ask to see their DL or HCP anyway.

 

Anything else, like a bill of sale, is up to you.

Personally, if the gun I'm selling is one that I picked up privately and did not have to sign a bill of sale for,

then I will not require a bill of sale when I sell it. If it's a gun that I bought new from a dealer or one that I had to sign a bill of sale for,

then I will require a bill of sale when I sell it. 

[PackinMama]

I just reread the OP, and realized that he asked about buying, not selling....

Just like others have said, buying is pretty straightforward. Pay them the money and you are on your way.

[peejman]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that to be 100% legal when selling someone a firearm in TN, you need to do two things:

#1 - Ask the buyer if they are legally allowed to own a firearm in the state of Tennessee and/or if they are a convicted felon

#2 - Ask them if they are a resident of Tennessee

 

Legally, you do not have to actually see their DL or HCP, just ask them if they are a resident of TN.....but just to cya,  it's a good idea to ask to see their DL or HCP anyway.

 

 

Correct.  Asking questions #1 and #2 and getting the proper response is legally considered due diligence.  No paperwork of any sort is legally required.

Edited August 22, 2014 by peejman

[Hershmeister]

Since he is a new poster, perhaps we need to also remind that if you are not legally allowed to own a firearm then you may not legally purchase one privately. Complete list of prohibited persons is on form 4473 https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf Failure to comply will lead to a sentence of 10 years in orange jumpsuits and roommates with unusual tattoos.

[runco]

As a buyer, quite simple, pay the price and answer questions of the seller (if any).  Risks:  Stolen, used in a crime, defective, setup (if you are a felon).  Like any purchase, recommend a bill of sale to protect you on a what if its stolen.  As a private seller, a little more stringent.

[bird333]

Is there a bill of sale form online somewhere that you guys use?

[monkeylizard]

Yep.

 

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/4-suggested-form-for-face-to-face-firearms-sale-or-transfer/

[monkeylizard]

As for the 2 questions PackinMama listed, no, you do not have to ask those to be legal. They're a good idea, but not required.

 

All that's required for selling is that you're both residents of the same state and you don't have reason to believe the buyer is a felon or otherwise prohibted from owning/posessing a firearm. You don't have to actually ask about either point, but it's a good idea. You could also reasonably determine residency through other means (the buyer's phone# is a TN area code, they have TN plates, they're active on a particular TN gun owners' forum and have posted about TN specific stuff, etc.)

 

That's why lots of sellers here require to see at least a Tennessee DL (proof of residency)  or an HCP (proof of not being a felon). It's a good way to make a reasonable judgement that the buyer is qualified to buy. The BoS is an extra step that some buyers/sellers want to do, some won't do, and some require. It's all personal choice on that one.

Edited August 22, 2014 by monkeylizard

[K191145]

Here's a "hypothetical" question. Say if a guy you used to work with just got a brand new felony conviction, had to get rid of his guns so he "gave" them to his dad or had his dad take possession of them, he needed money obviously so you decided to buy one from his dad figuring his dad was giving him money for legal expenses etc. that would be perfectly legal wouldn't it? You are technically buying it from his dad, he can't own or possess firearms anymore so he has to have someone take possession of them, it's not illegal to buy from a non-felon(his dad) and it's not illegal for his dad to give him money for his expenses.

Edited August 22, 2014 by K191145

[Hozzie]

I would say as long as he "sold" them to his dad BEFORE he was a felon the. You may be ok. If he did it after conviction, then the transaction to his dad was illegal, therefore the gun you buy is illegal.


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[Oh Shoot]

I would say as long as he "sold" them to his dad BEFORE he was a felon the. You may be ok. If he did it after conviction, then the transaction to his dad was illegal, therefore the gun you buy is illegal.

 

I don't see any federal justification of that statement myself. Felons can't own firearms, but don't see that getting rid of them after a conviction makes the guns "illegal".

 

Might be sticky in some states that have firearm registration, but just don't see any federal laws that could affect anyone involved in the scenario except the felon himself, who is guilty of possessing firearms during the period from conviction until disposal,  if they should want to try to prove the exact timing of the events.

 

- OS

Edited August 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Hozzie]

I would argue that it is illegal to transfer (whether purchase or gift) a firearm from a known felon as a buyer. I suppose there may be some leeway, but then buying as a third party from that person could be iffy.

If I knew the person and really knew the guns were legal beforehand, I wouldn't worry about it too much. We did everything before he was even arrested as far as I know. :-)


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[JayC]

Under what law is it illegal for a 'legal buyer' to receive firearms from anybody?

 

All the state and federal laws I've ever seen involve selling firearms or possessing firearms...

 

ATF FAQ on the subject: http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-21.pdf

 

I would argue that it is illegal to transfer (whether purchase or gift) a firearm from a known felon as a buyer. I suppose there may be some leeway, but then buying as a third party from that person could be iffy.

If I knew the person and really knew the guns were legal beforehand, I wouldn't worry about it too much. We did everything before he was even arrested as far as I know. :-)


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Edited August 22, 2014 by JayC

[Oh Shoot]

I would argue that it is illegal to transfer (whether purchase or gift) a firearm from a known felon as a buyer....

 

Then I suppose you could point to the federal law that prohibits that?

 

Knowing the federal statutes to a certain extent, I would argue that it is not prohibited for a felon to sell firearms, only to possess them. Of the cases where I find a felon has been caught doing it, the actual charge is illegal possession, not selling.

 

As far as the buyer under federal law, the only prohibitions I know of is knowingly receiving a stolen weapon and bringing a firearm back into the state of one's residence acquired in personal sale in another. Note that even in the last instance it was not illegal for the buyer to purchase the firearm out of state in personal sale.

 

- OS

Edited August 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

Under what law is it illegal for a 'legal buyer' to receive firearms from anybody?

 

Only if the buyer knows or has reasonable cause to know the firearms are stolen, or of  course is prohibited from possession. . Even if the buyer knows the seller is resident of another state it's not prohibited for the buyer to purchase it, as long as the buyer is in his own state of residence.

 

Perhaps the buyer could be charged with abetting a crime or something esoteric, but there's no direct federal firearm law that prohibits such to my knowledge.

 

- OS

Edited August 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[K191145]

I would argue that it is illegal to transfer (whether purchase or gift) a firearm from a known felon as a buyer. I suppose there may be some leeway, but then buying as a third party from that person could be iffy.

If I knew the person and really knew the guns were legal beforehand, I wouldn't worry about it too much. We did everything before he was even arrested as far as I know. :-)


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Well technically they would be his dads firearms, if he gave them to him before the actual conviction that he knew was comming. His dad would be the owner/seller and would recieve the money. Any money he gave to his son later would just be a gift from dear old dad.

 

The moral of the story is, I personally don't smoke pot and don't want it even near me but if you do, find out what the misdomenor amount and felony amount is to have with you, and people you think are your friends might crap on you to save their own skin.

My personal suggestion, don't smoke the crap and you wont have any problems.

[K191145]

Then I suppose you could point to the federal law that prohibits that?

 

Knowing the federal statutes to a certain extent, I would argue that it is not prohibited for a felon to sell firearms, only to possess them. Of the cases where I find a felon has been caught doing it, the actual charge is illegal possession, not selling.

 

As far as the buyer under federal law, the only prohibitions I know of is knowingly receiving a stolen weapon and bringing a firearm back into the state of one's residence acquired in personal sale in another. [b]Note that even in the last instance it was not illegal for the buyer to purchase the firearm out of state in personal sale.[/b]

 

- OS

 

What about if you have an aunt in Georgia who may decide some day to let you "have" your late uncles L.C. Smith double? I always thought it would have to go to an FFL dealer and cost some money for a legal transfer to Tennessee. It also would be a gift, not a sale if it did happen.

[Hozzie]

I understand the whole scenario and am not saying to not do it. I am saying it isn't worth the potential hassle for a gun if Joe Schmo law enforcement person wants to jack with you wether they should be able to or not.


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[Oh Shoot]

What about if you have an aunt in Georgia who may decide some day to let you "have" your late uncles L.C. Smith double? I always thought it would have to go to an FFL dealer and cost some money for a legal transfer to Tennessee. It also would be a gift, not a sale if it did happen.

 

Doesn't relate to what I wrote, but:

 

No difference between sale and gift, both are "transfers".

 

Interstate inheritance is an exception, requires no FFL interaction, otherwise yes, gun would need to be transferred via a TN FFL to a TN resident. The law is not specific (at least 18 USC 922 isn't) about exactly what constitutes an inheritance, except that it does not have to be in a will, can be intestate.

 

However, no federal law forbids a TN resident from acquiring a gun in private transaction in GA, it only becomes a violation when the TN resident brings it back into or receives it the state, except for inheritance, loan, or rental.

 

- OS

Edited August 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Garufa]

What if someone's crazy uncle gave a pistol to some cousin in Mississippi in 1962 and said cousin then sold it to a friend back in Tennessee a few years later then friend's sole heir who lived in Alabama took it home then sold it at a gun show, online or to another friend?

 

Just want to make sure you guys cover all the bases.  ;)

[Oh Shoot]

What if someone's crazy uncle gave a pistol to some cousin in Mississippi in 1962 and said cousin then sold it to a friend back in Tennessee a few years later then friend's sole heir who lived in Alabama took it home then sold it at a gun show, online or to another friend?

 

Just want to make sure you guys cover all the bases.  ;)

 

My guess is that statute of limitations come into play. :)

 

- OS