Debate!

[Guest Rugerman]

I skipped class the day subtlety was taught.

Ha, you have me cracking up in this thread

[TripleDigitRide]

Well I see my opinion that Obama has done a better job during the debates isn't the popular one.

As I said, by no means am I dedicated to either candidate. I've dedicated enormous amounts of time over the last couple of months trying to do all the research I can on McCain and Obama. Weeding through all the bull**** isn't as easy for me as it seems for some.

I'm attempting to do my very best when it comes to digging up the facts. With nearly all media outlets leaning very hard in one direction, finding unbias facts are not all that easy to come by. And trusting the information that either camp floods us with is hardly trustworthy. It's beyond obvious all politicians are masters at bending the truth to suit their needs.

Not that I'm any better, but how in the heck are some of you so sure that you have the real facts on McCain and Obama? Chances are, you have no more insight than myself. You get your information from TV, newspapers, friends and coligues like most Americans. Unless some of you are privy to some inside information, you have no better idea that your facts are any better than mine.

During the debates, both candidates make accusations, and undoubtedly the accused will always deny. How is the average American supposed to know who is lying and who is not? Why doesn't either candidate bring proof to the damn debates? Cold hard evidence. Something they can hold up and show us Americans who don't have official transcripts and official voting records? All this he said, he did, he didn't say, he didn't do BS is beyond irritating.

Admittedly, I have not been into politics until the last few years. Admittedly, I am far from an expert (as some of you seem to be) in the ways of being 100% positive that the facts I'm using to base my decision on who I'll be voting for are in fact 100% accurate. I'm begging you to fill me in. If you can lead me in the direction of cold hard facts that aren't slanted by anyones personal agenda, that would be amazing. Facts that neither candidate can deny would be absolutely perfect. Until then, I'm going to continue to struggle with my decision.

Edited October 16, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest SUNTZU]

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

[clarky07]

its a given that obama is a better speaker than mccain. that doesn't make him more qualified to be president. that just makes him a better speaker. there are many things being said by both campaigns about each other. none of that matters. all you have to do is look at history. socialism does not work. people give fdr credit for getting us out of the great depression. its simply not true. his policies extended the depression if anything. the war got us out of the depression, not the new deal.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

In 1940, after he had been in office for 8 years, unemployment was

about 18%. In 1943, it was 1%. 1943 by the way is what most consider

the end of the great depression. Creating lots of jobs to make

bullets and guns and tanks, along with sending a bunch of men to

Europe as soldiers got us out of the depression. I still credit fdr

with being a good leader. I am very thankful for his foreign policy

getting us into ww2. I do not however credit him with getting us out

of the great depression. A decade is too long to stay in an economic

downturn if you ask me. This is why I was opposed to the bailout

among other things. It might make it a little less painful now, but

it only extends the pain. I also don't want a ww3 to get us back to

prosperity. I don't think it will work like that again with the

advent of nuclear weapons.

"if you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it." we aren't anywhere near the great depression, but the policies didn't work. the depression lasted for 14 years. if the free-market would have been allowed to work, it would have been over much sooner. vote for the free-market. don't vote for socialism.

[Guest nraforlife]

Folks, the country is hosed...Pimps and whores running the country and the government educated masses are frickin clueless.

[DavidD]

Tripp, remember that the Presidents law making power is limited by Congress and the biggest impact to our laws for the long haul are his appointments to SCOTUS. The next President will not fix our current economic woes, period. His election may increase consumer confidence if we're lucky and he may actually make the situation worse by proposing a bunch of quick fixes that do not waok but he will not cause the money to flow again. This problem is far too complex. This up coming election, no matter which way you decide to vote, isn't the biggest decision you will ever make.

[TripleDigitRide]

Tripp, remember that the Presidents law making power is limited by Congress and the biggest impact to our laws for the long haul are his appointments to SCOTUS. The next President will not fix our current economic woes, period. His election may increase consumer confidence if we're lucky and he may actually make the situation worse by proposing a bunch of quick fixes that do not waok but he will not cause the money to flow again. This problem is far too complex. This up coming election, no matter which way you decide to vote, isn't the biggest decision you will ever make.

I know it may not be the most important desision, but I truely want to make the best educated decision I can.

Being completely bashed for my opinions and lack of understanding has really helped open my eyes to the whole process.

[clarky07]

i hope you didn't take my response as bashing. i truly respect you for speaking what you believe and wanting to make an educated decision. i was trying to give you a historical perspective of the situation and offer new information for your decision. i truly believe that neither of these candidates are that great, but i think that one offers a much less scary future.

[TripleDigitRide]

i hope you didn't take my response as bashing. i truly respect you for speaking what you believe and wanting to make an educated decision. i was trying to give you a historical perspective of the situation and offer new information for your decision. i truly believe that neither of these candidates are that great, but i think that one offers a much less scary future.

No, I didn't. I didn't really take any as "bashing". I have thick skin (well, maybe fat skin:D), and don't get offended all that easily. I'm perfectly capabale of taking it all in stride.

[Guest Honest AK]

No, I didn't. I didn't really take any as "bashing". I have thick skin (well, maybe fat skin:D), and don't get offended all that easily. I'm perfectly capabale of taking it all in stride.

You think you fooled us? We knew you were an agent of the left. You were sent here to infiltrate this forum for American patriots and spread communist propaganda for your terrorist leader!

[TGO David]

I know it may not be the most important desision, but I truely want to make the best educated decision I can.

Being completely bashed for my opinions and lack of understanding has really helped open my eyes to the whole process.

Any time you need some more of that, just let me know. I'm here for you.

[Smith]

i think the problem with TDRs "math" (J/K) is that people are trying to take these (or any) candidates in a current perspective. History is the best way to evaluate policy effectiveness as well as what can and can't be done. All the policices of Obama are not new, nor are McCain's. We have long historical track records for the effectiveness of each of these "plans".

For instance in 10 years when people compare Clinton to Bush II, statistically speaking (as well as every other economic marker) Bush will look incredibly good. The feelings of the moment will be irrelevant.

Obama's socialist plans will fail misrably and last for a long time. McCain's dumbness is correctable. With the exception of China, who only succeeds by using a free economic model, socialism has been a misrable failure. Always has. Capitalism has a long track record of empire building and long term success. Is there a perfect system..... no. All will fail, but capitalism fails once the principles of freedom get lost by the complacent within the society. Socialism fails because it is a fataly flawed understanding of reality and human nature in it's root conception.

[Guest canynracer]

All I know is that if Obama wins, I will stand behind McCain in the revolt. LOL....

[fury2neon]

i think the problem with TDRs "math" (J/K) is that people are trying to take these (or any) candidates in a current perspective. History is the best way to evaluate policy effectiveness as well as what can and can't be done. All the policices of Obama are not new, nor are McCain's. We have long historical track records for the effectiveness of each of these "plans".

For instance in 10 years when people compare Clinton to Bush II, statistically speaking (as well as every other economic marker) Bush will look incredibly good. The feelings of the moment will be irrelevant.

Obama's socialist plans will fail misrably and last for a long time. McCain's dumbness is correctable. With the exception of China, who only succeeds by using a free economic model, socialism has been a misrable failure. Always has. Capitalism has a long track record of empire building and long term success. Is there a perfect system..... no. All will fail, but capitalism fails once the principles of freedom get lost by the complacent within the society. Socialism fails because it is a fataly flawed understanding of reality and human nature in it's root conception.

+1

[TripleDigitRide]

What are the problems with socialist plans?

[fury2neon]

Socialist Health Care results in no one gets health care but the ruling elite. See Cuba, Canada (oh and all the Canadians in MI getting health care they can't get at home), Germany (where no if you have private insurance they will treat you, if you have the socialist care you ahve to wait a few weeks), etc...

Socialist Farming results in Famine see Ethiopia, Russia, Zimbabwe etc... all of these places exported before they turned socialist, the socialist system cause massive famines. Name one capitalist country that has had a famine.

Socialist manufacturing results in poor quality, delayed delivery and hording of raw materials. Kind of sounds like the unions in Detroit come to think of it.

I can keep going if you need more.

[Guest Honest AK]

Socialist Health Care results in no one gets health care but the ruling elite. See Cuba, Canada (oh and all the Canadians in MI getting health care they can't get at home), Germany (where no if you have private insurance they will treat you, if you have the socialist care you ahve to wait a few weeks), etc...

As far as health care goes, the Canadians and Germans are not in any worse shape than the 47 million Americans with no health insurance. The Cubans are screwed.

Do you think someone in the US with no insurance gets the same quality care as people that are insured? If they did, how would they ever afford it?

I'm not for nationalized health care but we'll have to do something besides "stay the course" or that is exactly what we're going to end up with.

The number of those going without has increased for the last six years straight. As that number rises, expect more and more people to favor policies that include everyone whether it's what's best for the country or not.

[TripleDigitRide]

Based on polls over the last month or so, it seems as if the last 8 years of being under a Republican ruler has forced the majority to seek out for some serious changes.

There is more Blame Gaming going on between Republicans and Democrats than you'd find on a playground full of 5 year olds. It's obviously impossible for either party to take responsibility for their actions.

[TripleDigitRide]

I have a question for you Obama haters.

Are there any negative personal and/or political qualities you see in George Bush III -- Oooops, I mean McCain?

[Guest Honest AK]

I have a question for you Obama haters.

Are there any negative personal and/or political qualities you see in George Bush III -- Oooops, I mean McCain?

TDR is throwing down the gauntlet!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITVFgxcDIg[/ame]

[fury2neon]

As far as health care goes, the Canadians and Germans are not in any worse shape than the 47 million Americans with no health insurance. The Cubans are screwed.

Do you think someone in the US with no insurance gets the same quality care as people that are insured? If they did, how would they ever afford it?

I'm not for nationalized health care but we'll have to do something besides "stay the course" or that is exactly what we're going to end up with.

The number of those going without has increased for the last six years straight. As that number rises, expect more and more people to favor policies that include everyone whether it's what's best for the country or not.

Medical Insurance should be abolished as it currently stands. Insurance is for EMERGENCIES, ie auto accidents, home fires, floods, earthquakes, major health issues etc...

Currently instead of paying for health care we are paying for hundreds of worthless bureaucrats who decide what health care we can have instead of us paying our doctors directly and getting the care the doctor and patient decide on. Bureaucrats are only there to make the process cost more and that is all insurance truly adds.

We have to get back to the society we were where we as individuals took care of ourselves rather than letting a bunch of barely educated bureaucrats make all our decisions for us.

Oh and please note most of the people "without Health insurance are young people with no kids who have CHOSEN to not take health insurance.

Edited October 18, 2008 by fury2neon

[fury2neon]

I have a question for you Obama haters.

Are there any negative personal and/or political qualities you see in George Bush III -- Oooops, I mean McCain?

Yes, he is a socialist who has never met a government program he did not like. He knows very little about economics which explains why he has voted with the democrats on economic issues ever since he joined the senate.

McCain believes that government is ultimate good as he has never worked anywhere else. As opposed to the founding father who saw government as inherently evil but a necessary one.

[TripleDigitRide]

TDR is throwing down the gauntlet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITVFgxcDIg

Naw, just trying to educate myself as much as possible before it's time to vote.

Great old-school movie, BTW!

[Guest Honest AK]

Oh and please note most of the people "without Health insurance are young people with no kids who have CHOSEN to not take health insurance.

You may very well be right but do you have a link to back up that statement?

This article tends to disagree with you:

"The majority of people who lack health insurance coverage, 8 in 10 of the uninsured, come from working families who do not have access to any type of employer-sponsored insurance program."

http://www.hcfo.net/topic0908.htm#endnotes

This isn't taking into account the number of under insured who have access to insurance but can barely afford the premiums, much less the deductibles and co pays.

[fury2neon]

You may very well be right but do you have a link to back up that statement?

This article tends to disagree with you:

"The majority of people who lack health insurance coverage, 8 in 10 of the uninsured, come from working families who do not have access to any type of employer-sponsored insurance program."

http://www.hcfo.net/topic0908.htm#endnotes

This isn't taking into account the number of under insured who have access to insurance but can barely afford the premiums, much less the deductibles and co pays.

I wont matter what source material I send you, your mind is made up and my sources wont matter. Check the figures the government releases before you go with a socialized health care advocate, they are a lot closer to reality.

There is a 150 years of failed socialist polices to look at and that doesn't matter.

The excuse is that socialist just hasn't been tried the "right way" yet.

The catch is that it has been tried every way people can think of and it has yet to perform as advertised and its failures have been blamed on capitalism. That is why Jim Quinn came up with the following laws of liberalism

Quinn’s Laws of Liberalism-

• 
  
  • 1. Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.
    
  • 2. If you want to know what liberals are up to, pay attention to what they accuse the conservatives of.
    
  • 3. The amount of wealth in any given area is inversely proportional to the amount of Democrats running it.
    
  • 4. Liberalism only succeeds when the public is scared into believing that it will not survive without it.
    
  • 5. When liberalism conflicts with reality, reality must give way.
    
  • 6. Facts are the enemy of liberalism.
    
  • 7. Things are different when you are a Democrat [regarding his allegations of the media's ignorance towards Democratic scandals and misconduct].
    
  • 8. A Liberal is any person for whom two thousand years of human experience and history means nothing now that they are here.
    
  • 9. To liberals, intentions are more significant than the outcomes they achieve.
    
  • 10. Liberals never think what they are doing is wrong, they only think they haven’t done enough of it yet or it is underfunded.
    
  • 11. Profiling is what groups call bigotry when they have a problem they don’t want to talk about.
    
  • 12. Democrats and liberals do not engage in debate, they try to silence you. If they engaged in debate, they’d lose.
    
  • 13. Democrats are political opportunists.
    
  • 14. Liberalism is based on unproven and/or disproven theory.
    
  • 15. Every culture is unquestionable except the West’s
    
  • 16. Liberals view the world the way they think it should be, not the way it is.
    
  • 17. Being a liberal is the art of standing on ones own head and telling the rest of the world that they are upside down.