This really breaks my heart.

[RobertNashville]

One thing you can give the Muslim people...they are quite tenacious. Unless you blow them all to hell, the problem of violence in that region will never be solved. I often wonder how many people in other countries feel the same way about us...it is all a matter of perspective I guess...

The key phrase there is "never be solved" - it doesn't matter what the U.S. does or doesn't do. The hate will never die.

 

There will be no peace in the Middle East until there is no Middle East; by that I mean that the human population will have gone the way of the dinosaur OR the earth has been destroyed to make way for an intergalactic bypass.

[RobertNashville]

Agreed there are fringe groups in a lot of religions.... But any group that calls for the death of all that do not recognize Alah is a terrorist in my book. If you doubt me read the Koran.

They are terrorists.

Islam is not just a religion but is also a political ideology/system of government which makes it a highly dangerous organization because Islam's manifest destiny is to bring the entire world into submission to God...THEIR God and under THEIR system of government and only ONE government. This makes it incumbent upon the true follower of Islam to make this destiny a reality. The fact that not all Muslims will take up violence to bring about the submission of the world to Islam doesn't change what Islam is.

[Sam1]

Unfortunately those people blaming this most recent military action on George Bush is 100% correct... as much as it pains me to say it.

 

It appears as if the planes for the bombing runs are being launched from the USS George H.W. Bush  :rofl:

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=56f_1407526155

[gregintenn]

We were there from 2001 till when; last year? If we didn't fix anything in that amount of time, what makes you think going back will make any difference?

 

When Bush was president, you'll likely remember the nightly national news on all 3 networks began their broadcast with a daily death toll of our forces in Iraq; EVERY NIGHT.

 

Today, they seem to be cheerleading attacks there. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in what is shown on the news.

[Omega]

We were there from 2001 till when; last year? If we didn't fix anything in that amount of time, what makes you think going back will make any difference?
 
When Bush was president, you'll likely remember the nightly national news on all 3 networks began their broadcast with a daily death toll of our forces in Iraq; EVERY NIGHT.
 
Today, they seem to be cheerleading attacks there. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in what is shown on the news.

The fact that the media is the biggest collection of liberals there is, is why the average American has the view they do. We ousted a cruel dictator that paid the families of suicide bombers, used WMDs on his own people, refused to verify said WMDs were disposed of (sent to Syria) and used the sale of oil, allowed for humanitarian reasons, to fund his weapons proliferation. He also gave asylum to terrorists, most notably Abu Abbas the one responsible for the Achille Lauro. And we reduced the number of fighting age men from many surrounding countries that have nothing better to do than try and kill us and destroy our way of life. So I would not say we didn't accomplish anything.

[TMF]

[quote name="gregintenn" post="1177487" timestamp="1407593020"]We were there from 2001 till when; last year? If we didn't fix anything in that amount of time, what makes you think going back will make any difference? When Bush was president, you'll likely remember the nightly national news on all 3 networks began their broadcast with a daily death toll of our forces in Iraq; [b]EVERY NIGHT[/b]. Today, they seem to be cheerleading attacks there. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in what is shown on the news.[/quote] We invaded in the spring if 2003. The war pretty much was done by late 2009 for most troops. I don't condone sending troops in, but I support bombing ISIS non-stop until they stay away from the Kurds, Christians and Yazidis. What is happening right now is beyond comprehension, and whether we have a hand in causing this destabilization or not, we have a moral obligation as human beings with the means to save innocent lives. No one will stand up for the Christians and Yazidis being slaughtered in northern Iraq. They are on their own. We can easily stop the advance of Isis with easy peasy airstrikes. I can think of no good reason to not use our assets to stop the slaughter. We have little to lose and so much innocent life to save. When I was wearing a uniform, these were the type of people and situations I was more than willing to risk my life for.

[tnguy]

I don't disagree, but I also have issue with standing by and watching genocide. They're unable to defend themselves against the might of ISIS. It's what we do, we fight for those who can't fight for themselves.

ISIS appears to use the age old method, "join us or die."

Do "we"? Or do the politicians send other peoples' sons, fathers and brothers out there to do their bidding?

Not that there might not be plenty who would be willing to go but I'm sure that's not what many signed up for. I'm sure for those non-military who are calling for action, there's little to stop them getting there and joining the fighting themselves.

[Hershmeister]

[quote name="Wyldk2" post="1177363" timestamp="1407553816"]You do realize both the Bible and the Koran were written by men. And a lot of times they did not have paper or parchment to write on. So It was handed down by word of mouth. So in time, things get changed around a bit. A long time ago if you didn't practice christianity( catholism in general) you were viewed as a Heretic and shunned or killed. By order of the king which was directly under the pope. There are different versions of these bibles and korans. True followers of their faith do not believe in violence toward anyone. But the media has corrupted us all into thinking all muslims are evil. I know a muslim and he lives in my neighborhood. Actually ran for county commissoner. I had my CPA ( Citizen Police Academy) class with him for 10 weeks this year. Good guy, very knowledgable and he holds a top secret clearance at AEDC. So not all are bad.[/quote] That is entirely an incorrect description of islam. You live in the West, where there are many judeo-christian sects which hold that their religious writing are divinely inspired but written by man, and thus subject to man's interpretation. Islam in nearly all sects including its largest and majority sects of Sunni and Shia beleive that the koran is the literal word of Allah. Their prophet Muhummed was allahs messenger. Islam itself means "submission to g-d". Its a religion of obedience and leads critical thinking not occuring since if you express a thought counter to the dogma you are a heretic or infidel and subject to death. This is the so called Radical islam that we see - and its not so radical to most muslims. You friend here in the USA would also be considered an apostate and subject to death if he were over there now. And those people on top of that mountain are considered Infidels - and must either convert or die. And all we are doing is making sure they will die with a full stomach. These people should be allowed asylum to come to the uSa if we will not defend them against the monsters who wish them dead. Watch the video i posted earlier in the thread

[gregintenn]

The fact that the media is the biggest collection of liberals there is, is why the average American has the view they do. We ousted a cruel dictator that paid the families of suicide bombers, used WMDs on his own people, refused to verify said WMDs were disposed of (sent to Syria) and used the sale of oil, allowed for humanitarian reasons, to fund his weapons proliferation. He also gave asylum to terrorists, most notably Abu Abbas the one responsible for the Achille Lauro. And we reduced the number of fighting age men from many surrounding countries that have nothing better to do than try and kill us and destroy our way of life. So I would not say we didn't accomplish anything.

If you'll remember a little further back in history, we helped that "cruel dictator" step into power by ousting his predecessor. WW1 and WW2 notwithstanding, our tinkering in world politics usually doesn't turn out well.

[K191145]

Trust me, the Kurds are well armed. They've been the only force that has held back ISIS and mounted successful offensives. They're trying to hold what they got though. I don't see them sticking their neck out for the Yazidis.

 

I keep hearing from military experts on the news that we need to arm them much more and they are asking for more arms from us. Also I heard that the Yazidis were trying to get into Kurdish controled areas because they knew the Kurds wouldn't bother them. All I can form my opinion on is what I hear from retired officers interviewed. I have also heard from Kurdish people in interviews that the Kurds have no desire for jihad or islamic radicalism, and the Kurdish community is made up of both Muslims and Christians who seem to get along. If that's the case then the Kurds are our best bet to keep ISIS from getting stronger in that area without us putting boots on the ground.

[btq96r]

Trust me, the Kurds are well armed. They've been the only force that has held back ISIS and mounted successful offensives. They're trying to hold what they got though. I don't see them sticking their neck out for the Yazidis.

 

Actually, the Kurds have expended a lot of their munitions while holding their own.  Their stocks are so low, the Iraqi government gave them a resupply, which never would have happened if they weren't all but guaranteed to use it on a mutual enemy- ISIS.  The Peshmerga is the only military force in Iraq that will stand and fight under pressure.  It's a shame we haven't been giving the Kurds what they need since this started. 

 

 

I have also heard from Kurdish people in interviews that the Kurds have no desire for jihad or islamic radicalism, and the Kurdish community is made up of both Muslims and Christians who seem to get along. If that's the case then the Kurds are our best bet to keep ISIS from getting stronger in that area without us putting boots on the ground.

 

You've heard correct.  Kurds, as a generality, are the most western-like in their live and let live relations with other sects, religions and ethnic minorities than anybody else in that region.  Kurdistan was always a quiet AO.  The difference in driving from a city like Mosul to a Kurdish one was night and day.

[TMF]

I keep hearing from military experts on the news that we need to arm them much more and they are asking for more arms from us. Also I heard that the Yazidis were trying to get into Kurdish controled areas because they knew the Kurds wouldn't bother them. All I can form my opinion on is what I hear from retired officers interviewed. I have also heard from Kurdish people in interviews that the Kurds have no desire for jihad or islamic radicalism, and the Kurdish community is made up of both Muslims and Christians who seem to get along. If that's the case then the Kurds are our best bet to keep ISIS from getting stronger in that area without us putting boots on the ground.

 

The Kurds will leave the Yazidis alone.  Most Yazidis I knew identified themselves as being ethnically Kurdish anyway.  The only strife between the Yazidis and Christian/Assyrian, Muslim and Jewish Kurds is that they believe the Yazidis are devil/peacock worshipping heretics.  They are a joke to folks of the region.  Not so much though that they would have to fear the KRG or Kurdish communities; they just aren't taken seriously.  I think this is why they don't receive any support or empathy from folks in the region.  I do believe if they make it behind Kurdish lines they will be okay though.

 

The Kurds have been arming up since before we invaded.  After the invasion they got fat on scraps from Saddam's old Army and all the cash we were pumping to the Kurds.  Nonetheless, they could always use more.  I don't see ISIS as a threat to Kurdish controlled areas.  ISIS doesn't have the man power or equipment to take and hold land.  From what I've seen it's been a bunch of shelling and pillaging the Kurdish areas south of the Green Line.  We can stop that tomorrow by hitting ISIS with a few days of airstrikes.  For certain, the Peshmerga will never break and they will not surrender their territory.  They aren't like the Arabs at all.

[peejman]

I believe that is taken pretty much straight form the Koran. Why doesn't someone besides the U.S. pitch in a helping hand for a change?

"Join us or die" was around long before the Koran or the Bible. I'd say it originated with the first disagreement between men.

Why us and not someone else? With great power comes great responsibility. I don't much care for the idea of going back into the fire, but again, I like the idea of doing nothing even less.

[TMF]

Actually, the Kurds have expended a lot of their munitions while holding their own.  Their stocks are so low, the Iraqi government gave them a resupply, which never would have happened if they weren't all but guaranteed to use it on a mutual enemy- ISIS.  The Peshmerga is the only military force in Iraq that will stand and fight under pressure.  It's a shame we haven't been giving the Kurds what they need since this started. 

 

 

The Kurds have plenty.  If they are sponging off Baghdad for ammo it's because they see it as an opportunity to keep their current stuff from getting too depleted.  I saw a glimpse into what they ran off with after Saddam's Army crumbled.  Paired with what they've been slid in the years following I don't believe they could be anywhere close to rounds complete, especially since the Peshmerga (regulars) haven't been involved in any of the heavy fighting during the war.  The Peshmerga that were south of the Green Line during those days were getting their supply from the Iraqi Gov. 

 

They ain't stupid.  They ain't gonna use all their own stuff when they can get it from us and Baghdad.

[jacob]

[quote name="tnguy" post="1177531" timestamp="1407596985"]Do "we"? Or do the politicians send other peoples' sons, fathers and brothers out there to do their bidding? Not that there might not be plenty who would be willing to go but I'm sure that's not what many signed up for. I'm sure for those non-military who are calling for action, there's little to stop them getting there and joining the fighting themselves.[/quote] So what are those who VOLUNTEER to join the service signing up for??

[tnhawk]

Did I stumble into the political sub forum by mistake?

You got to watch where you step around here! :rofl:

[none]

You do realize both the Bible and the Koran were written by men. And a lot of times they did not have paper or parchment to write on. So It was handed down by word of mouth. So in time, things get changed around a bit.
 
A long time ago if you didn't practice christianity( catholism in general) you were viewed as a Heretic and shunned or killed. By order of the king which was directly under the pope. There are different versions of these bibles and korans. True followers of their faith do not believe in violence toward anyone. But the media has corrupted us all into thinking all muslims are evil.
 
I know a muslim and he lives in my neighborhood. Actually ran for county commissoner. I had my CPA ( Citizen Police Academy) class with him for 10 weeks this year. Good guy, very knowledgable and he holds a top secret clearance at AEDC. So not all are bad.

Not to be sarcastic but could you provide supporting documentarion and facts to support your assertion? Additionally as I stated there are fringe groups in many areas not just religion I did not state all were bad. However again if someone calls for the death of anyone based on their religious views that is terrorism. As precviously stated Islam is not a religion.

[Sam1]

Not to be sarcastic but could you provide supporting documentarion and facts to support your assertion? Additionally as I stated there are fringe groups in many areas not just religion I did not state all were bad. However again if someone calls for the death of anyone based on their religious views that is terrorism. As precviously stated Islam is not a religion.

 

are you asking him about the bible or the history of christianity?  both are well documented and would take years to post all of the data.

 

and yes, islam is actually a religion.

[DaveTN]

We should not be televising our plans.

[tnguy]

So what are those who VOLUNTEER to join the service signing up for??

I wouldn't dare to speak for them, I'm sure it's many and varied. Would any who have been through the services care to comment?

[jacob]

I'll chime in my reasons. I joined to be able to take care of my family, it was a steady job at 18 with a newborn baby on the way. But being a service member also made me feel a part of something bigger than myself. I felt like what I did helped make a difference to someone, somewhere. I don't agree with all the decisions made by the politicians, it's a lot easier to make a judgment call when you don't directly or immediately have to suffer if things turn out wrong. But to assert that our service members are blind to the fact they may have to endure dangerous deployments or career fields is a bit of a stretch. Most (I will not say all) who join know the score to a great degree before they ever take their oath at MEPS..... Edited August 10, 2014 by jacob

[jacob]

[quote name="gregintenn" post="1177559" timestamp="1407599365"]If you'll remember a little further back in history, we helped that "cruel dictator" step into power by ousting his predecessor. WW1 and WW2 notwithstanding, our tinkering in world politics usually doesn't turn out well.[/quote] I agree with the point you are making to an extent. I would also say that as long as there is good, there will always be evil. Should we stand by and allow evil to win just because the battle to defeat it is longer and more difficult that we would like? Not trying to be argumentative by any means, just asking a "philosophical" question...

[tnguy]

But to assert that our service members are blind to the fact they may have to endure dangerous deployments or career fields is a bit of a stretch.

Oh, I certainly wasn't doing that. I'm sure there are many reasons, financial, patriotic or just wanting to kill people. Obviously, if you're in it just for the money or massacre, then that's one thing but if you signed up to protect your country and countrymen, that's a different matter. Clearly, it's becoming obvious that that's not so much what the military is about these days and if one joins up, one should have their eyes open to that. Which may explain recruitment issues somewhat.

Please note that I'm not judging servicemen or their motivations in the least. It's those who feel that just because someone signed on the dotted line that they should be subject to the whims of "something has to be done". These are your neighbors and countrymen and sometimes your co-workers and family. Think twice before wishing them put in harms way

[jacob]

That is why I wanted to be sure to add that I don't always agree with the use of our military outside of the US. It's misuse makes doing something when it is needed (as is the case with stopping ISIS) even more difficult....

[RobertNashville]

So what are those who VOLUNTEER to join the service signing up for??

We who joined and served did so for our own reasons; some reasons are more noble than others but so long as we served well and did our duty I don't the "nobility" of the reason really matters; we all wore the uniform and put ourselves (or at least were willing to put ourselves) in harms way.

Politicians have always been the ones to decided where we went and when we went; that's the trip we what we signed up for and if volunteers didn't understand that; well...that's their own fault I think (I know I certainly went to some places I didn't exactly want to go to!).