John Galt

[gregintenn]

The problem is the finite resources on this planet being wasted on that excess. Those resources belong to everyone, not to have a large amount squandered by a few people. Why should some people have better healthcare, better food, be able to afford good doctors, all just because they have some money? They aren't better than anyone else. 

 

The capitalist utopia would never happen, because of the things I mentioned before. It would wind up way worse than it is now. That's no surprise, though, communism, socialism, ect doesn't work either, nor would pure capitalism. 

What you are describing is precisely communism. I can't believe someone is on a gun forum, of all places, spouting this garbage.

 

Communism would be a beautiful thing if people weren't inherently sorry. That being said, the only way to motivate the average human is to reward productivity. "The resources" do NOT belong to everybody. Some people SHOULD have better healthcare, better food, and better doctors simply because they got off their @ss and produced enough to be able to afford these luxuries if they so desire.

 

If you work 6 days a week, and I lay my fat behind on the sofa watching Jerry Springer all day, what gives me the right to a portion of the fruit of YOUR labor?

 

 

 

Perhaps you'd be more into something written by Marx?

Edited August 6, 2014 by gregintenn

[KKing]

[quote name="gregintenn" post="1176046" timestamp="1407287097"]What you are describing is precisely communism. I can't believe someone is on a gun forum, of all places, spouting this garbage. Communism would be a beautiful thing if people weren't inherently sorry. That being said, the only way to motivate the average human is to reward productivity. "The resources" do NOT belong to everybody. Some people SHOULD have better healthcare, better food, and better doctors simply because they got off their @ss and produced enough to be able to afford these luxuries if they so desire. If you work 6 days a week, and I lay my fat behind on the sofa watching Jerry Springer all day, what gives me the right to a portion of the fruit of YOUR labor? Perhaps you'd be more into something written by Marx?[/quote] This is exactly how it came off to me, I figured I'd give him the benefit of doubt and let him answer my question.

[gregintenn]

I find I'm not quite finished......

 

 

What gives you the "right" to healthcare, food, or any other valuable commodity?

 

I may agree you have the "right" to purchase it at market prices, but it costs money, time, energy, and effort to develop and produce. Without the promise of financial gain for doing so, few people would produce food, healthcare, etc. This where your thinking is flawed. Government produces nothing; it only sucks from productivity like a leech. It cannot mandate the development nor production of any good or service.

Edited August 6, 2014 by gregintenn

[A.J. Holst]

I boil it down to: are you a producer or are you a looter?

I am not on this earth to work for others.

My Christian duty is to help those who can't help themselves, provide a hand up not a hand out.

The most un-Christian thing someone can do is use guilt to get another to fulfill their wants, needs and desires without putting forth any individual effort.

Want a bigger home, nicer car, more guns and you can't make it happen on your current income? Get a second job. Give up some "needs" like cable television, high speed Internet, beer and cigarettes. Stop buying processed food and actually cook, put out a garden and can/freeze. Give up leisure time of watching sports all day Saturday and Sunday and produce something. I lost my job in 2008 and worked 3 jobs to keep my home, buy food and maintain my excellent credit - it takes sacrifice and humility but it can be done. Edited August 6, 2014 by Gotthegoods

[Rightwinger]

Another one that should be living in a hut somewhere yet still lives in a house, drives a car and complains on the internet.

 

(not Gotthegoods, he got in a reply before I hit send)

Edited August 6, 2014 by Rightwinger

[gregintenn]

Another one that should be living in a hut somewhere yet still lives in a house, drives a car and complains on the internet.

 

(not Gotthegoods, he got in a reply before I hit send)

:rofl:

Good point!

I believe my creator would refer to this as hypocrisy, and takes a very dim view of it.

[A.J. Holst]

And another thing...I am glad we have social security as a safety net and that is what is supposed to be...my uncle worked for years and had a stroke. My brother in law worked for years and had a debilitating heart attack he never recovered from. I have close friends who have a quality of life because of the safety net. But guess what, they were and would still be PRODUCERS if not for legitimate illness or injury.

[Guest ab28]

:rofl:

Good point!

I believe my creator would refer to this as hypocrisy, and takes a very dim view of it.

I'm agnostic, not everyone is a Christian. I don't believe because all the evidence against it(chemistry, biology, geology, ect) It isn't hypocrisy, I don't own a car anyways. I quit smoking, rarely drink, and don't watch TV. I've always considered sports boring as hell. I don't believe in wealth distribution, was merely stating that perfect capitalism is as much of a fantasy as pure communism or pure socialism. 

 

I don't have a problem with capitalism, it is about the only economic system that actually works. With that said, it has plenty of flaws and shortcomings, and it wouldn't work the way Ayn Rand hopes it would. There would be people getting screwed over, becoming slaves, ect. 

 

Far from complaining, when I was in Iraq, I got to see how bad life can be. Even considered "poor", people are well off in this country. 

[Hershmeister]

Did you read the money speech above? She speaks precisely about the need to hve values. You are misrepresenting her again

[Guest ab28]

Did you read the money speech above? She speaks precisely about the need to hve values. You are misrepresenting her again

No, I'm not. As I mentioned, I have read all her books, and that one, especially, several times. I was responding to gregg, anyways.

 

I was stating why her idea of capitalism would not work. Look at the Industrial Revolution for unregulated capitalism. That's what would happen if her ideals were realized, not some fantasy utopia that she thought would happen. 

[A.J. Holst]

No, I'm not. As I mentioned, I have read all her books, and that one, especially, several times. I was responding to gregg, anyways.

I was stating why her idea of capitalism would not work. Look at the Industrial Revolution for unregulated capitalism. That's what would happen if her ideals were realized, not some fantasy utopia that she thought would happen.

I'm not a follower of Rand's philosophy nor was she a Christian. I do find her writings in Atlas shrugged to be somewhat prophetic in that I see many of the abuses and excesses of guv'mint and the idle rich coming to pass. The only reason unregulated capitalism doesn't work is the selfishness of man and the "owners of business" not giving "fair" exchange for my or your labor - Rand believed in her capitalistic utopia that there would be fair exchange of skill/labor/brains for wages/goods/services.

I agree with you; because of man's inherent selfishness her fantasyland of unregulated capitalism would take us back to the abuses of the Industrial Revolution. Edited August 6, 2014 by Gotthegoods

[Guest ab28]

I'm not a follower of Rand's philosophy nor was she a Christian. I do find her writings in Atlas shrugged to be somewhat prophetic in that I see many of the abuses and excesses of guv'mint and the idle rich coming to pass. The only reason unregulated capitalism doesn't work is the selfishness of man and the "owners of business" not giving "fair" exchange for my or your labor - Rand believed in her capitalistic utopia that there would be fair exchange of skill/labor/brains for wages/goods/services.

I agree with you; because of man's inherent selfishness her fantasyland of unregulated capitalism would take us back to the abuses of the Industrial Revolution.

True, that was what I was trying to say, not interpreting her idea of it. I was stating what would happen if pure capitalism actually worked in the real world. To be honest, though, I've never gotten "fair" exchange for my labor at any job I've worked at. 

 

I'm not sure what Rand being a christian has anything to do with it. Morality doesn't come from religion, I have friends of most faiths, and some without, and they are all pretty much the same, good people. 

 

Because of man's inherent selfishness is why no economic system truly works. Capitalism, communism, socialism, all fail. It's just capitalism is the one that fails the least, the "best of the worst", so to speak. 

[Hershmeister]

Evidence that liberty delivers results (economic, political and personal) http://youtu.be/jbkSRLYSojo