Gun purchase wrongfully denied......again

[OD#3]

Don't know why I posted this here.  Mods, this should probably have been in the General Chat Forum instead.

 

 

I see many threads on the internet from people who believe they were wrongfully denied by TICS for a firearm purchase.  Usually, they speculate about some past indiscretion that, while it shouldn't have mattered (expunged, dismissed, etc.), has somehow fallen through the cracks, and the court failed to update the records properly. 

 

I just have to rant a bit though, because I don't fall into that category at all.  However, I was denied today for the THIRD time in a year.  I have a squeaky clean record--no arrests of any kind...ever.  No domestic issues of any kind...ever.  No dishonorable military issues (still serving in the National Guard)...ever.  Never used illegal drugs...ever.  No mental health issues, citizenship issues, etc., etc.  I've never even been pulled over before (and I've been driving for almost thirty years).  To top it off, I've been a police officer in good standing for over 18 years.  In short, I'm the last guy anyone would expect to have difficulty passing a TICS check, yet I have, for the third time, been denied.

 

I've appealed, of course--just like I did the last time.  That denial was reversed within a day, and I'm fairly confident that this will be too.  My best guess is that I'm sometimes being mistaken for someone else.  The second time it happened, I spoke to the lady at work that has to run periodic background checks on us every time we're up for our NCIC recertification, and I asked her if there were ever any hits on my name.  She said that there was a felon the last time she ran it that shared my first and last name and date of birth, but a cursory examination revealed that he had a SSN that wasn't even close, he was from another state, and he was a different race. She couldn't remember anything else about it, because it was so obvious to her that the felon wasn't me.   In short, the only information we share is our first and last names and dates of birth.  A google check at the time turned something up about the other guy--in New Jersey--, and he'd been recently convicted--hence, the probable reason for this to have so recently become a problem.  I tried to find him today on google and had no luck.

 

 It is galling to me that some TICS employees appear to be so incompetent as to not look beyond a matching name and date of birth. I have never arrested anyone as the result of an NCIC hit unless and until I have absolutely verified that the warrant is valid and that the person I'm dealing with is positively the person identified on the NCIC hit.  Heaven forbid that we take someone's freedom away over a case of mistaken identity.  But the criteria used for denying someone the right to purchase a firearm is pretty sloppy.  Google your own name and DOB sometime, and you'll probably be surprised by the number of results you get.  And it really seems to depend greatly on which TICS employee is doing the check.  The first time I was denied, the clerk called TICS, told them I was a local police officer (I'd been in there in uniform just the day before), and asked them to please double-check the information.  The person he spoke to laughed and told him to have me come back the following day.  I went back expecting to see some sign of the denial being reversed.  The store had received nothing, but they ran me again, and I was approved.  

 

The second time I was denied, I was picking up a pre-ordered firearm.  The check went fine, but when the clerk handed me a pistol instead of the rifle I'd ordered, he realized that he'd run the wrong gun; I had to fill out another 4473, and that time the transaction was denied.  I appealed and received a phone call from the store the next day informing me that the denial had been overturned.

 

I really hate to go the UPIN route, but I may have to.  The third time is a charm.  I always provide my SSN, and that really should be enough to distinguish me from a convicted felon.  I do understand from an FFL friend of mine that some FFL's will not include the SSN on the check, even when you provide it.  He always uses the SSN and carefully double-checks the number.  And I've never been denied when buying a firearm through him.  I didn't think to ask the clerk today about that.  I was very polite and understanding with him, as they don't get many denials there, and I could tell that he was uncomfortable about breaking the bad news to me.  As I've come to half-expect this sort of thing lately, I wasn't even angry then.  As the afternoon has progressed though, I've grown very irritated about the whole thing, and I just needed to get this off my chest.

 

If you've been patient enough to read through my rant, you might appreciate an update, so I'll provide one whenever there is a resolution.  And if you've ever been wrongfully denied, you might take comfort that you're not alone.  It happens to the most squeaky-clean people sometimes.   

Edited July 24, 2014 by OD#3

[RED333]

Since there is a bad guy out there with the same name, NICS does not know some one is not telling the truth.

You are right that this does happen to a few, yours is a LOT, I can understand the anger.

[OD#3]

If it were only that, I would expect every John Smith in TN to get denied.  My name is uncommon.  Perhaps that is to my detriment though, because I would expect that TICS has to be more careful with common names due to the large number of hits.  With an uncommon name like mine, a single hit with that name and DOB might be enough for them to make assumptions.  I understand that they can't engage in dialogue with everyone they deny, but it is frustrating to have no real information.  The last time, I was denied, and it was overturned.  No explanation given, and I've just had to surmise the reason.  And since the individual records can't be stored (that would create an illegal firearms database), they have no way to learn from their mistakes.

 

Getting a UPIN is supposed to make this more foolproof, but I've been reluctant to do this, as I've been told that the process necessarily requires that one's future transaction records are no longer destroyed.  

[Steelharp]

If I were you, I wouldn't go the UPIN route. As frustrating as it is, I would choose to stay the patient route. Yes, it's ridiculous that you've had this happen more than once. Even MORE ridiculous that you might have it happen again. You could just understand that it might, take it with a grain of salt, and just go through the aggravation.

 

I have a customer that gets denied EVERY time. When he picks out a gun, he always says he'll just come back and get it after it clears. He's taken the attitude of comfort in knowing the previous record really WAS destroyed, and they can't just go, "Oh, he got clearance last time. Just let it go."

 

Just food for thought.

[tnhawk]

I understand your anger with the background check system.  I've had it happen several times over a period of years.  The last time was during a trip out of  state where I purchased a Henry rifle.  As I was given a military discount, I was asked for drivers license, military ID and HCP. I was told there was a hold on the purchase for three days.  Later in the day after I had driven a few hundred miles, I received a call from the gun shop to inform me the hold had been removed.  As in your case, no explanation was given.

[JayC]

First, TICS blatantly violates the TN state constitution which only allows the legislature to regulate the wearing of firearms not the purchasing of firearms.  TICS also has a much worse false positive rate than the national NICS system, they routinely deny lawful purchases and the error rate is 3 to 4 times higher than NICS, which has it's own high false positive rate...

 

It's a money grab by the state, $10 per background check adds up, and they're unlawfully taking that money out of our pockets every time we buy a firearm from a dealer here in TN.

 

And just keep in mind nation wide, that for every conviction for somebody trying to illegally buy a firearm, it's costing us about 25 million dollars in compliance costs with federal background check regulation.

 

Where else can you go to work, have a 80+% false positive rate and get raises and promotions?

Edited July 25, 2014 by JayC

[mikegideon]

Sounds like you need to make damn sure that the FFL includes you SSN when they run the check. Knock on wood, I've never been denied, and have been through 25 or so. I always include my SSN. That doesn't do much good if the FFL leaves it off the check.

[Steelharp]

The software used for TICS uses your TNDL number. It automatically fills in all your info from that, including your SS#.

[TripleDigitRide]

Have you ever considered buying from only private individuals? 

[OD#3]

First, TICS blatantly violates the TN state constitution which only allows the legislature to regulate the wearing of firearms not the purchasing of firearms.  TICS also has a much worse false positive rate than the national NICS system, they routinely deny lawful purchases and the error rate is 3 to 4 times higher than NICS, which has it's own high false positive rate...

 

 

I very much agree with you on this; the legislature only has the authority to regulate the WEARING of arms, but this has never been challenged that I know of--at least not successfully.   

 

The software used for TICS uses your TNDL number. It automatically fills in all your info from that, including your SS#.

 

 

I know that when I run TNDL's, the SSN shows up on the return as well (along with whether or not the person has a valid HCP).  It is funny sometimes when I'm taking a report from someone, and I ask for their SSN.  They sometimes reply that they don't give that information out, and they opt instead to just provide their name and date of birth.  They're not really protecting their SSN, but I don't argue with them.  Our report-taking software pre-populates the person's information from their TNDL record (if they have one), so when it finds their TNDL from the name and date of birth, it populates the SSN field anyway.  It just finds the TNDL record more quickly when using a number instead of last name and date of birth, and since most people don't know their TNDL# by heart, I often just ask for their SSN.    

 

So I know that TICS has access to the SSN after running the TNDL, but I wonder if they even bother to scrutinize it.  I got a phone call around 0930 this morning from the gun store telling me that they arrived at work to discover that my appeal had been approved last night, and I drove on over and picked up my firearm.  There was, of course, no explanation, and I didn't ask the clerk about how he entered my information; the whole thing had been a hassle for them as well, and they had heavily discounted the firearm to begin with (friends with the owner).  I don't think they made much--if any--money on the sale, and I didn't want to even hint that any of this had been their fault. 

 

I'm still mulling over the UPIN thing.  I know that TICS has access to my SSN, but I still wonder if it helps to draw attention to it.  Since I usually get approved, I don't know if the few denials have been the result of someone over there not doing their due diligence, or if it really matters about the SSN.  From the TICS website, it appears that my military ID along with my voter registration card would suffice for identification and residency documentation.  I may try that from now on and just see if it makes any difference.  Although I suspect I'll run into a few FFL's that are used to receiving only a driver's license and will therefore be initially reluctant about it.

 

Have you ever considered buying from only private individuals? 

 

 

No.  I've bought quite a few from individuals--usually collectible stuff.  But you can't always find exactly what you want with face-to-face deals--at least not very quickly.  And despite one's assessment of condition, the round count is often unknown (is it time to replace some springs, should that Beretta 92 locking block be replaced?) ; sometimes you just want a brand new gun.  But one of my friends with an FFL has quite a large personal collection, and he takes personal satisfaction from having purchased all of them from individuals.  He's only had his FFL for a few years, and he finds it a little ironic and funny that he has an FFL, yet he has never in his life filled out a 4473 for himself. It has become his goal to continue that trend for the rest of his life.

 

Thanks to all for your kind comments and advice and for lending an ear to my rant.  May all your future transactions go smoothly.