Letter to Wally World

[chipperi]

There is an update to this on the next page turns out good.

Dear Manager,

We live in a location in Tennessee where we have easy access to six different Wal-Marts and two Sams Clubs in TN and VA.

I work third shift and doing so means I usually shop in the early morning hours usually between 2 and 4 am. This morning my wife and I decided to go to the new Wal-Mart on Market St in Johnson City TN for the first and possibly the last time. This is a weekly trip and we usually spend in upwards of $200. As usual at Wal-Mart the greeter was pleasant and asked how we were doing. We went straight to women’s clothing; I was just standing there while my wife was looking.

After a second or two a cashier according to the little yellow tag walked up to me and said rather abruptly “Sir we don’t allow pistols in the store” I advised her I have a valid TN Handgun Carry Permit. At which point she replied “don’t matter you have to leave”. Under TN law if asked to leave I have to so I did.

I have carried in the five other Wal-Marts and both Sams and have never had any problems. I sometimes get a curious look, once a stocker asked how she could go about getting a permit. But nothing like this morning.

I have 2 problems with what happened this morning as follows:

First I have several friends that work at local Wal-Marts and am aware that it is your companies policy that cashiers are not to confront any customer, even shoplifting has to be witnessed by a manager before loss prevention can approach a customer. So why did she say anything at all to me. Far more bizarre to me was the obvious plain clothed loss prevention guy was standing there talking to the cashier as I was walking out. Why was he too much of a coward to say anything, and why are you even paying him.

Second I have been fingerprinted, background checked, and trained above and beyond the level that the state requires. It is not someone who is a law-abiding citizen that legally carries a firearm secured in a holster that you have to fear. The ones you want to fear are the criminals who walk through the door with a gun in their hand intent on robbery or killing.

You can check it online now; the crime rates are steadily climbing in the Johnson City area. Would you want to walk around in Johnson City with your family at 3am with out some form of protection? The average response time for the JCPD is four minutes by then it is too late, also the JCPD qualifies with their side arms 1hr every other month and most don’t practice anymore than that. So am I willing to bet my and my families lives on someone who is four minutes away with 6hrs training a year? I would think not.

Finally keep in mind that there are over 200,000 carry permits in this state. Also keep in mind that Wal-Mart is no longer very competitive, your prices are often beat by grocery stores and we have three new Targets in the area now.

I understand there was a recent very near tragedy in a Sams in North Carolina; this was caused by an act of blatant stupidity. Please don’t let the actions of one make us all appear bad to you. Also remember a couple years back a Wal-Mart employee who was being stabbed to death was saved by a customer who was legally carrying in I believe Arizona.

I am sending this letter through the website however I will also call the manager of this store during regular hours today.

Chip

Piney Flats, TN

Edited October 13, 2008 by chipperi

[Guest Verbal Kint]

1. Sucks that you ran into this problem.

2. 99% chance you'll just receive a blanket letter in response to your email.

3. Wal-Mart won't care about losing 1 customer. Not an attack on you, but on Wal-Mart. Having had family that worked in their upper levels of corporate employment, I have a pretty good handle on their ethics and principles. As long as they're making a profit... they could care less who they step on.

4. You state you were simply standing there waiting for your wife during this situation, and also stated that stockers had previously noticed your weapon and inquired about it. One can only assume you carried openly, unless these people have x-ray vision. I know, I know... it's your choice and right. Very true. However, had you decided to conceal carry no one would have ever been the wiser and you could still protect yourself and loved ones without ever experiencing this problem.

I don't want to turn your thread into a debate, so I'll just leave it at that and won't expand on that topic. I respect your decision to exercise your rights, but you gotta accept the repurcussions that they bring.

Hope you get a satisfactional reply from Wal-Mart, but I'd be surprised if you even get a legitimate apology that isn't attached to an corporate letter.

[Guest bkelm18]

Seems like you were open carrying. It is my understanding that Walmart in general frowns on that. Oh well. Life goes on. Your letter wont do much, no body will re-write the books or anything. In all honesty, Walmart doesn't care about one person or 10 people or 100 people.

I don't want to turn your thread into a debate, so I'll just leave it at that and won't expand on that topic. I respect your decision to exercise your rights, but you gotta accept the repurcussions that they bring.

Those are my feelings exactly regarding OC. Carry however you like, but in today's society don't expect to be treated like a regular Joe every single place you go if you have a gun in plain sight. Sooner or later somebody will wet their panties and stir up some problems.

Edited October 13, 2008 by bkelm18

[Guest Phantom6]

Wal-Mart has a corporate policy of being "gun friendly". It has been my observation and experience that they have no problem with concealed carry but open carry tends to make their liberal, know-nothing, anti-gun customers very jittery and causes them (the company) much grief and aggrivation when having to respond to "man with a gun" complaints by said liberal, anti-gun customers. While under the laws of the state of Tennessee you certainly have every right to OC, keep in mind that under those same laws any store certainly has the right to ask you to cover it up or leave. As far as your assertion that you were asked to leave by a lowly "cashier" , well I wouldn't push that unless you have a copy of the corporate policies handbook with you. I don't do business with Wal-Mart for a variety of reasons and I have sent them letters to that affect but I also expect that they'll get along just fine without me.

[waynesan]

After a second or two a cashier according to the little yellow tag walked up to me and said rather abruptly “Sir we don’t allow pistols in the store†I advised her I have a valid TN Handgun Carry Permit. At which point she replied “don’t matter you have to leaveâ€. Under TN law if asked to leave I have to so I did.

I find it absolutely amazing that the "cashier" was the one to confront you on this. Where was the store manager? If I was the cashier I would figure such a confrontation to be above my pay grade.

I have seen OC in one of the stores in Kingsport with no problem at least a couple of times, but this was 3 or 4 years ago so store policy may have changed since then. Anyway, her blanket statement of "we don't allow pistols in the store" is wrong. They may not allow OC, but pistols are not banned from the store if you have a permit.

I understand there was a recent very near tragedy in a Sams in North Carolina; this was caused by an act of blatant stupidity.

I don't know what the incident was to which you are refering but if it was something in which a legal carrier did something wrong I don't think I would have brought that up in your letter to Wal-Mart. Do you have a link to that incident?

Legally you did nothing wrong. And I applaud you for leaving the store without raising a ruckus upon being asked. And like you, I would not want to be unarmed in that store at 3am. - or anytime as far as that goes. I hope you hear back from the manager and let us know what he/she says.

[strickj]

First problem

First I have several friends that work at local Wal-Marts and am aware that it is your companies policy that cashiers are not to confront any customer, even shoplifting has to be witnessed by a manager before loss prevention can approach a customer. So why did she say anything at all to me

You dont work there so you have no clue as to their policy is on that particular subject.

Far more bizarre to me was the obvious plain clothed loss prevention guy was standing there talking to the cashier as I was walking out. Why was he too much of a coward to say anything, and why are you even paying him.

How do you know this if he was "plain clothes"?

As far as you know he could have been a customer,a stocker,or anybody else.The only uniforms I have ever seen at WM is a blue blazer over regular clothes.

Now if you had said the guy was 83 years old with a smile face button on then I would have agreed that he was loss prevention

From TFA regarding WM carry:

http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law_regs/postedletters/walmart-reply1.asp

[TripleDigitRide]

Unfortunately for you and your family, this is a perfect example why both shopping at Wal-Mart and OC are bad ideas.

Neither are worth the trouble.

Edited October 13, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't know what the incident was to which you are refering but if it was something in which a legal carrier did something wrong I don't think I would have brought that up in your letter to Wal-Mart. Do you have a link to that incident?

There was an incident where a woman had a pistol in her purse while she was in Sam's Club and her little girl or granddaughter got the pistol out of the purse while she was sitting in the cart and fired off a round. No one was hurt.

[Guest bkelm18]

Unfortunately for you and your family, this is a perfect example why both shopping at Wal-Mart and OC are bad ideas.

Neither are worth the trouble.

Why is shopping at Walmart a bad idea? They are not posted.

[Guest Watauga]

I shop at the same Walmart. Never had any problems!

However, I never OC. IMHO, Its more trouble than its worth.

There are just too many 'gun phobia' people in public places.

Glad, it was not anymore trouble for Chipperi.

[chipperi]

I just got off the phone with the Store manager and she sounded fairly ticked that I was asked to leave. She stated that she grew up in Rogersville around guns and owns a few of her own. She took the cashiers description as well as that of the loss prevention guy. She said it is fairly common to ask someone to cover it so as not to scare other non gun savy customers but that is only if someone complains. But not to ask them to leave. She stated she had only asked one person to leave when she was at another store and that was due to he was carrying 2 .44 revolvers in a western rig, that was scaring the other customers. I explained what happened, and other than employees my wife and I were the only 2 in the store so who complained. She said she would call me back sometime tommorrow as she has to talk to the night crew when they come in tonite. I was actually fairly suprised for Wal-Mart.

[Angus]

Open carry though, really? Even at 2am...not bagging you dude, just curious as to why?

[Guest Watauga]

I just got off the phone with the Store manager and she sounded fairly ticked that I was asked to leave. She stated that she grew up in Rogersville around guns and owns a few of her own. She took the cashiers description as well as that of the loss prevention guy. She said it is fairly common to ask someone to cover it so as not to scare other non gun savy customers but that is only if someone complains. But not to ask them to leave. She stated she had only asked one person to leave when she was at another store and that was due to he was carrying 2 .44 revolvers in a western rig, that was scaring the other customers. I explained what happened, and other than employees my wife and I were the only 2 in the store so who complained. She said she would call me back sometime tommorrow as she has to talk to the night crew when they come in tonite. I was actually fairly suprised for Wal-Mart.

That's great news. And very customer friendly!!

Now, I feel better about shopping there.

[Fallguy]

Open carry though, really? Even at 2am...not bagging you dude, just curious as to why?

Why would you ask Why?

What I mean is, it is obviously his choice to OC.

The debate on OC vs CC has been covered extensively on here many times. If you want to see the pros and cons simply do a search.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Fallguy

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Why would you ask Why?

Because, whether it's his legal right to do so or not, that is what caused this whole situation.

Had the weapon been concealed, this wouldn't have even come up. Yet this is another case where open carry causes the party to draw unneeded attention, whether it's legal or not. As I said earlier, I respect his reason to carry openly as he's exercising his freedom to do so... but I still find it just asking for confrontation.

[Guest canynracer]

Open carry though, really? Even at 2am...not bagging you dude, just curious as to why?

Lets not go to this debate again...I choose not to OC, you may choose to OC...doesnt matter, we are all in this together, I support his desicion/right (whatever you want to call it) to do so...

We have over 200,000 permits in the state, that number needs to remain united... if divided between OC'rs and CC'rs the number diminishes therefore less impressive to the anti group...

Its WalMarts policy that you must conceal (according to the letter that Strick posted)....so if you wanna carry...conceal it...

[Fallguy]

Because, whether it's his legal right to do so or not, that is what caused this whole situation.

Had the weapon been concealed, this wouldn't have even come up. Yet this is another case where open carry causes the party to draw unneeded attention, whether it's legal or not. As I said earlier, I respect his reason to carry openly as he's exercising his freedom to do so... but I still find it just asking for confrontation.

Some people simply don't shy away from attention or confrontation (if they are legal and/or within their rights). He apparently is comfortable with the attention and/or confrontation that OC may bring. Because others aren't, is it that hard to believe some are?

It still strikes me so funny that on a gun board so many people have locked on the OC part of the story as opposed to the fact that he was asked to leave instead of cover it up. ...and that the person that confronted him said "They do not allow guns in the store" period OC, CC or otherwise.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

Lets not go to this debate again...I choose not to OC, you may choose to OC...doesnt matter, we are all in this together, I support his desicion/right (whatever you want to call it) to do so...

We have over 200,000 permits in the state, that number needs to remain united... if divided between OC'rs and CC'rs the number diminishes therefore less impressive to the anti group...

Its WalMarts policy that you must conceal (according to the letter that Strick posted)....so if you wanna carry...conceal it...

I agree...

To each his own on OC or CC

I was thinking the figure of those with a HCP was a fair amount over 300,000. But yes, we need to be more united. I swear the anti-OC people among HCP holders are worse than the anti-gun people in the general population when it comes to the "Why do you need to?" questions and the like.

Also...Wal-Mart or any store can choose to ban carry, allow CC only or OC and CC. So if a place allows CC but not OC, I would rather save my energy to fight the battles against places that don't allow carry at all.

[TGO David]

Sooner or later our state issued HCPs will be amended to be concealed carry permits and everyone's going to sit around slack-jawed with blank, dumb expressions asking why the heck they changed the rules. And when it happens, I'm going to tell stories about people open carrying at Wal-Mart, scaring the sheep.

Yeah, I'm knocking you pretty hard for this. Deal with it. The reason our state doesn't require concealment is because if concealment is required by law, then you could lose your permit or be thrown into jail for even accidentally "flashing" your weapon as you reached for a box of Fruit Loops on the top shelf. In many states where concealment is required, this can and does happen.

The law wasn't written with open carry as a provision so you could cowboy-up with your heater on your hip. It was written to keep you out of jail for being careless.

People argue all the time that more open carry would make it so common place that the public wouldn't care anymore. Bull****. More open carry will result in more sheep being pissed off about it, writing their representatives and castrating your right to carry at the polls during the next election cycle. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

CONCEAL IT. The world does not need to know that you are carrying unless you are trying to send the message that you carry your balls in your holster. There is zero tactical advantage to revealing your hand.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Huge +1

[Fallguy]

I simply agree to disagree.....

[TGO David]

I simply agree to disagree.....

That's cool and I respect your decision to do so. But I'll be here in a few years to post an "I told you so" follow-up when this happens.

[Fallguy]

That's cool and I respect your decision to do so. But I'll be here in a few years to post an "I told you so" follow-up when this happens.

I'll be here waiting....

[Guest canynracer]

The reason our state doesn't require concealment is because if concealment is required by law, then you could lose your permit or be thrown into jail for even accidentally "flashing" your weapon as you reached for a box of Fruit Loops on the top shelf. In many states where concealment is required, this can and does happen.

The law wasn't written with open carry as a provision so you could cowboy-up with your heater on your hip. It was written to keep you out of jail for being careless.

Not being argumentative here...I choose to conceal, and I disagree with carrying openly..but that is MY choice.

but I have seen this posted by folks before...I cannot find anywhere that shows this is why they did it that way...I mean it does make sense, but is there something out there that says this is why they did it?

I ask because of the states where you dont need a permit at all to Open carry...

I look at this whole division (OCvsCC) as it starting at the state level, then national...we have over 300,000 permit holders here, and I have no clue what the national number is for people that carry...if we support eachother, reguardless of if we agree with the technicalities (tactical, deterrant, ect) our numbers will remain strong and continue to grow, it is a much louder voice...

I was also wondering what other states that allow OC and CC, require a permit for both...are we the only ones?

[Guest Verbal Kint]

...if we support eachother, reguardless of if we agree with the technicalities (tactical, deterrant, ect) our numbers will remain strong and continue to grow, it is a much louder voice...

Yes, but let me ask you this... who causes more of a problem and further fuels the anti-carry movement?

a) Those of us who conceal carry and mingle amongst the sheeple, them never the wiser.

Those of us who open carry, risking confrontation, and further stirring the pot.

That's my main "beef" with the OC crowd. They are the ones that are seen and cause the soccer moms to cling to their children and cry "OMG a gun! Someone save us from this obviously dangerous person!". Whether warranted or not, that's were the bad press comes in. More often than not, OC leads to confrontations... which leads to negative public opinion, whether it makes the news or whether someone standing around sees it and takes that "lesson" away from it.

We're shooting ourselves in the foot (no pun intended) by giving the anti-gun crowd something to piss and moan about.